Leicestershire Police bosses would consider including the burka in the uniform

[pSinatra]

2 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

You're not a threat, you're just someone they're not supposed to show their face to.

 

For what it's worth, I think it's a really shit practice. I can't stand conservative religion on any level. It's oppressive, even if the women wearing them don't feel that way on an individual basis.

 

But an entire community isn't going to change its entrenched religious practices overnight. 

 

The bottom line is, we have conservative Muslims here, many are our citizens, and we also have problems with the police being unable to access their communities. 

 

What's wrong with allowing a few Muslim women in the force to wear a burkha to make it easier?

 

I just don't see why this should evoke such a negative response.

 

I haven't a negative response to policewomen wearing a burka.  I can see the positives but I also think like you say these communites are entrenched & I'm not necessarily sure they want to change.

 

I mentioned muslim women, but I witnessed all sorts of attitudes from men & women.  It's fair to say that there is prejudice in all walks of life in all ethnicities, so I may be misguided in thinking that I was treated differently for being non-muslim, but I definitely got that feeling.  But then there were other muslims that came across as super nice & over the top friendly, that they were aware of the negative representation of the muslim community & wanted to change that opinion.

 

There just seems to be such a chasm between large muslim communities & the rest of society, with both sides being as guilty as each other.  There's muslims with no desire or need to integrate & the same could be said of non-muslims.

 

Apart from forcing people to get along, I don't know what the answer is.  There are good reasons for allowing muslim policewomen to wear burkas within the muslim community, but I could also argue that it is nothing more than indulging the muslim community (particularly with those that don't want/need to integrate) & enabling the differences that currently exist.

[foxy boxing]

To communicate we need to see people's reactions and the burka is a barrier to this

[Finnegan]

24 minutes ago, MattP said:

If anyone would be genuinely offended by such a suggestion I'd be surprised. 

 

It's not exactly a minority opinion and our last Prime Minister even gave a speech about how multiculturalism had failed in Britain. 

 

But, again, almost everyone that comes across with the same whinge about multiculturalism "failing" (including our last Prime Minister) ends up coming back to - but just not wanting to outright say - hardline/conservative muslims.

 

I don't really know how you can live and work in Leicester surrounded by people from all over the globe getting on pretty well, working together, living together without much of a problem and think there's some huge issue.

 

Is there any great problem with Indians, Chinese, Latvians, Jamaicans or whoever the hell else not just integrating and getting on with their lives?

 

Personally don't see it.

[Larry_LCFC]

How can you interact with an officer properly if you can't even see their face? 

[Guest MattP]

Reading the article again I've realised most people have missed the point quite spectacularly. 

 

It's nothing to do with division in communities or "sending a veiled officer" to a situation in the Muslim community, it says they would consider the request from an officer who wanted to do it, so this would not be some sort of specialist plan of community policing some are trying to portray it as. 

[Thracian]

10 hours ago, pSinatra said:

A few years ago, I worked for a delivery company in & around Leicester for a couple of months during the winter.  I made a lot of deliveries in the Highfields/Spinney Hill/Green Lane Road area & it was a bit of an eye-opener for me.  I know the area reasonably well but was surprised by the reaction I was getting from a lot of women answering the door.  They answered the door as normal, but as soon as they realised I was a white male they either shoved the door to & spoke to me through a gap in the door, not showing me their face, or they ran off (like I had pointed a gun at them).  They would only return once they had a face veil in place.

 

I really couldn't give a shit what people do with themselves.  They can do what they want & wear what they want.  What I didn't like was being seen as some sort of threat.  I found it offensive.  In what way am I a threat?

 

Leicester is always being held up as some sort of multicultural success story.  I wasn't feeling it.

 

If a policewoman wearing a burka is a step forward then go for it, but it's a drop in the ocean.

In what way would it be a step forward?

Some Muslims don't want to handle pork.

Some don't want to serve alcohol  

Some don't want to wear the same uniform as everyone else.

It's their choice but that choice shouldn't impact on other people's choice to employ only those prepared to meet the requirements of the job. 

You talk about a step forward but in this land where our law is based on equal rights for men and women I'll tell you what a step forward would be.

 Rather than to compromise our own ideals, the step forward would be to take on Muslim female police officers, to have them wear the same uniform as everyone else (acceptable according to Islamic doctrine so long as it could be shown to further the cause of Islam, so I understand) and to insist that they be treated with exactly the same respect as any other police officer by all communities .     

The requirements of every job are known before someone applies and if they, or others they answer to, are not prepared to accept the requirements, then they should apply for another job and give someone else a chance to do the one that offends them.

 

                 

[Thracian]

8 hours ago, Finnegan said:

 

But, again, almost everyone that comes across with the same whinge about multiculturalism "failing" (including our last Prime Minister) ends up coming back to - but just not wanting to outright say - hardline/conservative muslims.

 

I don't really know how you can live and work in Leicester surrounded by people from all over the globe getting on pretty well, working together, living together without much of a problem and think there's some huge issue.

 

Is there any great problem with Indians, Chinese, Latvians, Jamaicans or whoever the hell else not just integrating and getting on with their lives?

 

Personally don't see it.

 

Perhaps you haven't looked closely enough.

[Guest MattP]

Let's say the idea of doing this for policing Muslim communities was on the table.

 

How would it even work? Would you literally have a couple of burka clad officers sitting around all day at the tax payers expense waiting for an incident to arise that needed them? Would 999 callers actually be asking the callers whether they'd like a normal copper or a veiled one to attend the scene?

 

The more you think about it the more ridiculous you realise it is. And that's considering the idea people have made up to try and justify the policy.

[Finnegan]

16 minutes ago, MattP said:

Let's say the idea of doing this for policing Muslim communities was on the table.

 

How would it even work? Would you literally have a couple of burka clad officers sitting around all day at the tax payers expense waiting for an incident to arise that needed them? Would 999 callers actually be asking the callers whether they'd like a normal copper or a veiled one to attend the scene?

 

The more you think about it the more ridiculous you realise it is. And that's considering the idea people have made up to try and justify the policy.

 

I could be forgetting what I myself actually posted but I'm pretty confident you're strawman-ing an entire thread because it's starting to dawn on you that there are all sorts of positives of having a couple of WPCs in burkas and not really that many negatives that aren't essentially just xenophobia / paranoia.

 

I don't remember saying that Leics Constabulary had set up some specialist outreach programme that would exclusively deal with muslim problems and I'm pretty sure Shrappers didn't either.

 

Just pointing out that permitting female officers that want to wear a burka to do so could be a positive thing for working with a community that can be hard to reach.

 

I don't see why a woman in a burka couldn't serve as a bobby in any every day scenario? I mean, alright, sending a few to police an EDL demo might be ill advised but otherwise?

 

And let's be honest, this isn't something that will ever be commonplace anyway. 

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Finnegan said:

 

I could be forgetting what I myself actually posted but I'm pretty confident you're strawman-ing an entire thread because it's starting to dawn on you that there are all sorts of positives of having a couple of WPCs in burkas and not really that many negatives that aren't essentially just xenophobia / paranoia.

 

I don't remember saying that Leics Constabulary had set up some specialist outreach programme that would exclusively deal with muslim problems and I'm pretty sure Shrappers didn't either.

 

Just pointing out that permitting female officers that want to wear a burka to do so could be a positive thing for working with a community that can be hard to reach.

 

I don't see why a woman in a burka couldn't serve as a bobby in any every day scenario? I mean, alright, sending a few to police an EDL demo might be ill advised but otherwise?

 

And let's be honest, this isn't something that will ever be commonplace anyway. 

It took three pages, but we finally got to the xenophobia, we are making progress it seems.

Numerous people have stated this could be something used to help relations and with problems dealing with the Muslim community, if you read the original article again you'll read that isn't even part of the idea, they have said they would consider the request of a Muslim officer were she to do so, absolutely nothing to do community policing or improving relations, ironically that's the biggest strawman of the lot in this thread.

 

There has been no paranoia thrown up at all, just genuine questions as to how this could work and the silence on the those questions says it all. A police force and the law has to be an independent and serve everyone with complete equality, the idea it can be different to serve different sections of society could be catastrophic and would most likely be deleterious to whatever objective it was trying to achieve.

 

But they'll probably try it anyway, because they never learn when it comes to things like this, and the result will be then as usual be more division and resentment than there was in the first place.

[The Railway Man]

20 hours ago, foxy boxing said:

To communicate we need to see people's reactions and the burka is a barrier to this

 

19 hours ago, Larry_LCFC said:

How can you interact with an officer properly if you can't even see their face? 

My first thoughts.

 

I've never such a thing so stupid as having veiled law enforcement, it would result in a complete breakdown of trust between the police and public not to mention loss of respect, anyone who supports this needs a lobotomy.

[Finnegan]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

It took three pages, but we finally got to the xenophobia, we are making progress it seems.

Numerous people have stated this could be something used to help relations and with problems dealing with the Muslim community, if you read the original article again you'll read that isn't even part of the idea, they have said they would consider the request of a Muslim officer were she to do so, absolutely nothing to do community policing or improving relations, ironically that's the biggest strawman of the lot in this thread.

 

There has been no paranoia thrown up at all, just genuine questions as to how this could work and the silence on the those questions says it all. A police force and the law has to be an independent and serve everyone with complete equality, the idea it can be different to serve different sections of society could be catastrophic and would most likely be deleterious to whatever objective it was trying to achieve.

 

But they'll probably try it anyway, because they never learn when it comes to things like this, and the result will be then as usual be more division and resentment than there was in the first place.

 

Of course I brought up xenophobia, primarily for two reasons, firstly because you couldn't have been more desperate for someone to say it if you tried (I imagine you were hoping for "racism" as a first choice) and secondly because there's plenty of it in the thread.

 

I love the standard position now, fly as close to the wind as possible, hope someone calls you racist then shout 'OH HERE WE GO AGAIN YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING WITHOUT BEING CALLED RACIST!"

 

It's the new "pc brigade are everywhere!" 

 

Good news for you, Matt, is you know I'll always call a spade a spade*, even if it means giving you an out by claiming I'm somehow being unreasonable or absurd. You know that.

 

Because, seriously, what are the constructive arguments against? Other than just a deep distrust hidden behind "can't see their faces!" (so?)

 

And the only counter to perfectly valid points that a few bobbies in burkas might help community relations is "that's not why they're considering it!" (again... so?)

 

If you want to be taken seriously and not "slandered" for making a few snide, snarky remarks about how terrible an idea it is then how about just explaining why it's a terrible idea without just resorting to the usual cynicism about "hiding" people's faces and talking to white males and the oh-so-pc-council making everyone wear turbans, etc.

 

 

(*not racist :whistle: )

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Of course I brought up xenophobia, primarily for two reasons, firstly because you couldn't have been more desperate for someone to say it if you tried (I imagine you were hoping for "racism" as a first choice) and secondly because there's plenty of it in the thread.

 

I love the standard position now, fly as close to the wind as possible, hope someone calls you racist then shout 'OH HERE WE GO AGAIN YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING WITHOUT BEING CALLED RACIST!"

 

It's the new "pc brigade are everywhere!" 

 

Good news for you, Matt, is you know I'll always call a spade a spade*, even if it means giving you an out by claiming I'm somehow being unreasonable or absurd. You know that.

 

Because, seriously, what are the constructive arguments against? Other than just a deep distrust hidden behind "can't see their faces!" (so?)

 

And the only counter to perfectly valid points that a few bobbies in burkas might help community relations is "that's not why they're considering it!" (again... so?)

 

If you want to be taken seriously and not "slandered" for making a few snide, snarky remarks about how terrible an idea it is then how about just explaining why it's a terrible idea without just resorting to the usual cynicism about "hiding" people's faces and talking to white males and the oh-so-pc-council making everyone wear turbans, etc.

 

 

(*not racist )

My word, what on earth is this Finners?

 

No one has "sailed close to the wind" or brought up anything remotly close to being "racist" in this debate. It's nothing to do with the "PC brigade" or "calling a spade a spade".

Whether you believe those who enforce the law should be allowed to cover their faces has absolutely nothing to do with race (Islam isn't even a race for a start), xenophobia or anything like that, it's about what the police force represents and whether it should be tolerable for the state to be able to send out people we can't identify to uphold what we adhere to live by.

 

And I'll say it yet again, if you read the article and see the comments from Willy Bach you'll see this has NOTHING to do with bobbies in burkas helping community relations as nobody has mentioned that,

 

I've made it quite clear why I believe this is a bad idea, I've said it twice but you've choose to ignore it, I've stated the police force and the law has to be an independent and serve everyone with complete equality, the idea it can be different to serve different sections of society is not what a free thinking liberal society in 2016 should be looking to do, if you think that is a snide, sneaky un-PC remark said for shock value then so be it. I couldn't care less.

[Finnegan]

Surely if a police force is there to serve everyone with complete equality then everyone should be able to be an officer with complete equality?

 

And why exactly could a bobby in a burka not serve me? If my house is burgled and I call the police, what do I care if it's a woman in a burka or a pasty ginger bloke who turns up to take a statement?

 

If I'm lost in the middle of town can a woman in a burka not give me directions? If I'm being mugged can a woman in a burka not mace the cvnt and cuff him?

 

Can women in burkas ONLY serve other women in burkas?

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

Surely if a police force is there to serve everyone with complete equality then everyone should be able to be an officer with complete equality?

 

And why exactly could a bobby in a burka not serve me? If my house is burgled and I call the police, what do I care if it's a woman in a burka or a pasty ginger bloke who turns up to take a statement?

 

If I'm lost in the middle of town can a woman in a burka not give me directions? If I'm being mugged can a woman in a burka not mace the cvnt and cuff him?

 

Can women in burkas ONLY serve other women in burkas?

It would certainly be more difficult I'd imagine, it's hard enough to run and not bump into people at times with a cricket helmet on and there is more vision with that than a burka, I can't imagine trying to chase a criminal through a crowded town centre with something that impairs vision even more than that (although I'd certainly have great amusement watching it)

 

(I imagine cuffing someone would be difficult as well in a full length burka whilst also at the same time trying to protect modesty)

 

But that's not really the issue, my point is about trust, the people who uphold the law in the country have to develop that between themselves and the public, how that could happen when one side won't even show the other their face to the other would make it very difficult, would I want someone in my house who wouldn't show their face? No, I ask people to take a baseball cap off because I think that's rude.

 

This isn't racist, I have no problem with an officer wearing a headscarf, a cross or a turban providing they police everybody to the same laws and standards.

[The Railway Man]

I'd imagine arressting someone whilst dressed in a burka would actually be quite tricky.

 

As psintra said as well it's very, very hard to understand a person wearing a burka, I say that as someone who once taught a student who wore one and it was impossible at times and that was in a classroom. Surely good communiation is something a police officer has to have?? Lives can depend on it.

[Finnegan]

I can understand why you'd be naturally suspicious of someone wearing a balaclava, a motorbike helmet or a hockey mask or something in public for no apparent reason. You don't know their motive, it may be dubious.

 

But you know why a Muslim woman chooses to wear a burka so why would you doubt what she says to you, particularly if she's in uniform with her name, rank and serial number on her shoulder in case you take exception to her conduct?

 

That's the bit I'm seriously struggling with. 

 

This is an era in which you can apply for a loan, have a job interview and pay bills over the phone with no non-verbal communication. We do this without distrusting the voice on the other end.

 

Why would trust be an issue for an enlisted police officer who has met all the selection and training criteria of Leicestershire constabulary purely because she wanted to cover her face on religious grounds?

[Thracian]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

I can understand why you'd be naturally suspicious of someone wearing a balaclava, a motorbike helmet or a hockey mask or something in public for no apparent reason. You don't know their motive, it may be dubious.

 

But you know why a Muslim woman chooses to wear a burka so why would you doubt what she says to you, particularly if she's in uniform with her name, rank and serial number on her shoulder in case you take exception to her conduct?

 

That's the bit I'm seriously struggling with. 

 

This is an era in which you can apply for a loan, have a job interview and pay bills over the phone with no non-verbal communication. We do this without distrusting the voice on the other end.

 

Why would trust be an issue for an enlisted police officer who has met all the selection and training criteria of Leicestershire constabulary purely because she wanted to cover her face on religious grounds?

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting a burka might not be worn for other than religious reasons. Get real. And if it were tolerated for one officer to cover their face why not everyone else with whatever they chose and for whatever reason. Perhaps we'd have nuns with veils too, serving part-time. 

 

No Muslim needs to cover their face for religious reasons. They might wish to but, as I've mentioned many times but you seemingly choose to discount it, a Muslim can do a lot of things not normally sanctioned if it can be shown to be furthering the cause of Islam and, presumably, having representation within the local police force would qualify quite easily.      

 

Quite apart from that I'm not at all sure the Police - which is an across-the-board public service should present any kind of religious message through its workforce. 

 

As already stated, if people can't accept the terms of the job, they shouldn't apply.   

[Smudge]

I wonder if this is all about someone either misunderstanding the original statement or using the wrong word for headdress. These are the designs for the Met

[Smudge]

[The Railway Man]

8 minutes ago, Smudge said:

I wonder if this is all about someone either misunderstanding the original statement or using the wrong word for headdress. These are the designs for the Met

That is a Hijab, not a Burka.

 

If it is a misunderstanding or wrong word and our police and crime commissioner doesn't know the difference we have bigger problems than this given the position he is in.

[Smudge]

Just now, The Railway Man said:

That is a Hijab, not a Burka.

 

If it is a misunderstanding or wrong word and our police and crime commissioner doesn't know the difference we have bigger problems than this given the position he is in.

I know that's why I made the point.

[Dr The Singh]

10 hours ago, The Railway Man said:

I'd imagine arressting someone whilst dressed in a burka would actually be quite tricky.

 

As psintra said as well it's very, very hard to understand a person wearing a burka, I say that as someone who once taught a student who wore one and it was impossible at times and that was in a classroom. Surely good communiation is something a police officer has to have?? Lives can depend on it.

I would find it quite attractive, for some reason I find women in burkas really sexy!!