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Vacamion

President Trump & the USA

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19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The work is at least trying to the message out - as you have said here before making people aware of the problem is important. How effective she is at it in your or my opinion is neither here nor there - she shouldn't have to be doing it in the first place.

 

Merely raising awareness certainly isn't a practical solution in of itself, but I don't see the major world governments making much headway on that either, do you?

 

Fair enough, words do only take you so far. That doesn't take away from the position that world governments aren't doing enough and have more responsibility to do so than her, though.

 

 

We're in agreement on your first sentence.  I dont think she does have to be doing it.  The problém has been talked about a lot and the public are well aware, even if some are sceptical.  Its hardly a sidelined debate.  We have whole political parties dedicated to it!

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11 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Its going to be a close competition today for the least edifying post from the anti-Trump crowd

I do hope you let us know your winner by the end of the day. 

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3 minutes ago, bovril said:

I do hope you let us know your winner by the end of the day. 

Ok, will decide the winner before midnight.  Criteria will be lack of clarity of argument, lack of information backing argument, and lack of relevance to the post comment is in response too.

 

Contestants will also be judged on variations on 'orange man' insults.  Not sure yet if they should be rewarded for originality or lack there of in that regard

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1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

We're in agreement on your first sentence.  I dont think she does have to be doing it.  The problém has been talked about a lot and the public are well aware, even if some are sceptical.  Its hardly a sidelined debate.  We have whole political parties dedicated to it!

I'm not so sure just how aware the public are as to the real nature of the problem.

 

If they are that well-informed en masse then quite frankly that's an even worse implication than ignorance; because it then implies that enough people don't believe the data as it stands and so either think the scientific community are liars and conspiracists and/or incompetent for there to not be enough public pressure to begin applying meaningful solutions (in the US, anyhow - think it's better over in the UK).

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1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I'm not so sure just how aware the public are as to the real nature of the problem.

 

If they are that well-informed en masse then quite frankly that's an even worse implication than ignorance; because it then implies that enough people don't believe the data as it stands and so either think the scientific community are liars and conspiracists and/or incompetent for there to not be enough public pressure to begin applying meaningful solutions (in the US, anyhow - think it's better over in the UK).

But its not as though there is some grand solution that people are obstinately refusing to implement

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6 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

But its not as though there is some grand solution that people are obstinately refusing to implement

Nope, there is no grand sweeping solution.

 

There are, however, little starts such as:

 

- steadily reducing reliance on oil, coal and gas for energy generation

- pushing for improved renewable energy solutions and improved fission plants to fill the gap

- reducing food waste

- managing refrigerants

 

...but people don't seem interested in them, either - certainly not enough to cause the powers that be to think it's a vote winner, which ultimately amounts to the same thing as refusal.

 

Let me get this right, the public are well-informed of the problem but not the solution to it and therefore they're not pushing for a solution because they don't have enough information on it, yes? I don't quite believe that - the tips above may not be some kind of panacea that can just be applied but they're well-known as parts of a solution.

 

NB.Additionally, have a look at Project Drawdown in the meat and bones of the solutions needed interests you.

 

https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank

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7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nope, there is no grand sweeping solution.

 

There are, however, little starts such as:

 

- steadily reducing reliance on oil, coal and gas for energy generation

- pushing for improved renewable energy solutions and improved fission plants to fill the gap

- reducing food waste

- managing refrigerants

 

...but people don't seem interested in them, either - certainly not enough to cause the powers that be to think it's a vote winner, which ultimately amounts to the same thing as refusal.

 

Let me get this right, the public are well-informed of the problem but not the solution to it and therefore they're not pushing for a solution because they don't have enough information on it, yes? I don't quite believe that - the tips above may not be some kind of panacea that can just be applied but they're well-known as parts of a solution.

 

NB.Additionally, have a look at Project Drawdown in the meat and bones of the solutions needed interests you.

 

https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank

Arent we doing most of those things? Alternative energy forms are being developer and used throughout the western world increasingly.  Sure it would be nice if it went faster.  Food waste is terrible, but if you hear stories from people who lived in say, Czech Republic, where I am at the moment, the centralisation of production did not serve people well.  Whats the solution for food waste?

 

Loads of stuff on that drawdown list looks basically good.  Are we not doing a lot of that stuff to some extent?

 

You seem dissatisfied with the pace of things to the point of wanting a sort of international green deal, which brings us back to authoritarianism.  I feel like you look at that list and think 'why cant we do all this now and nothing else but this from now on'

 

Its not as easy as that though is it?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Arent we doing most of those things? Alternative energy forms are being developer and used throughout the western world increasingly.  Sure it would be nice if it went faster.  Food waste is terrible, but if you hear stories from people who lived in say, Czech Republic, where I am at the moment, the centralisation of production did not serve people well.  Whats the solution for food waste?

 

Loads of stuff on that drawdown list looks basically good.  Are we not doing a lot of that stuff to some extent?

 

You seem dissatisfied with the pace of things to the point of wanting a sort of international green deal, which brings us back to authoritarianism.  I feel like you look at that list and think 'why cant we do all this now and nothing else but this from now on'

 

Its not as easy as that though is it?

 

 

The Western world might be doing at least some of it, but right now the current administration in the US is either apathetic or totally antipathetic to the vast majority of those measures, and that is reflected in both their policy and what US citizens do while that administration is in charge. As such - yes, I'm worried about it not happening fast enough or indeed there being regression under the current US administration. Just so I'm not seen to be playing favourites, other players, most notably China and India, need to step up too.

 

TBH I'm not looking for centralised applied solutions - an awareness campaign by a government might do as much as enforcing a law on food waste, for instance - I'm looking for any kind of application of the solutions given. You seem to think that I have this ideological desire for authoritarianism and that's the only way seeking these solutions ends - that is not true. If these solutions can be applied in the manner required and within the framework of governance that we have already, then that is the ideal outcome for me and I assume a great many other people. My only horse in this race is ensuring the continuation of human civilisation and building a framework in which that can happen (and though other people may disregard the data we have I strongly believe measures like this are a necessity for it to happen); what people then do with that cleaner and greener civilisation politically is, of course, up to them.

 

I've said this before but I'll say it again: the environmental future of civilisation shouldn't be a damned political football and anyone trying to make it so, on any side, irks me.

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2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

The Western world might be doing at least some of it, but right now the current administration in the US is either apathetic or totally antipathetic to the vast majority of those measures, and that is reflected in both their policy and what US citizens do while that administration is in charge. As such - yes, I'm worried about it not happening fast enough or indeed there being regression under the current US administration. Just so I'm not seen to be playing favourites, other players, most notably China and India, need to step up too.

 

TBH I'm not looking for centralised applied solutions - an awareness campaign by a government might do as much as enforcing a law on food waste, for instance - I'm looking for any kind of application of the solutions given. You seem to think that I have this ideological desire for authoritarianism and that's the only way seeking these solutions ends - that is not true. If these solutions can be applied in the manner required and within the framework of governance that we have already, then that is the ideal outcome for me and I assume a great many other people. My only horse in this race is ensuring the continuation of human civilisation and building a framework in which that can happen (and though other people may disregard the data we have I strongly believe measures like this are a necessity for it to happen); what people then do with that cleaner and greener civilisation politically is, of course, up to them.

 

I've said this before but I'll say it again: the environmental future of civilisation shouldn't be a damned political football and anyone trying to make it so, on any side, irks me.

Agree it shouldnt be a political football for sure

 

Im curious about a law to prevent food waste. Does anyone have such laws? How do they/would they work?

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2 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

Agree it shouldnt be a political football for sure

 

Im curious about a law to prevent food waste. Does anyone have such laws? How do they/would they work?

That's a good question. I might have a dig and see.

 

TBH I think food distribution should be as decentralised as possible (much more efficient IMO) and regarding waste (as above) I think government doesn't need to get its hands too involved either - public awareness would work just as well.

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1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

That's a good question. I might have a dig and see.

 

TBH I think food distribution should be as decentralised as possible (much more efficient IMO) and regarding waste (as above) I think government doesn't need to get its hands too involved either - public awareness would work just as well.

And I guess decentralised food distribution would give scope for better quality

 

Would still have to import if we want fruit and veg exotic to the UK for example? ; i suppose modern farming methods could allow us to grow some stuff here thats not native

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1 minute ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

And I guess decentralised food distribution would give scope for better quality

 

Would still have to import if we want fruit and veg exotic to the UK for example? ; i suppose modern farming methods could allow us to grow some stuff here thats not native

That should be the goal, IMO - technological advancement to the point that food can be grown locally by demand.

 

However, we're veering rather off topic here aren't we - perhaps continue this in the Sci/Tech thread if further discussion is needed?

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Just now, leicsmac said:

That should be the goal, IMO - technological advancement to the point that food can be grown locally by demand.

 

However, we're veering rather off topic here aren't we - perhaps continue this in the Sci/Tech thread if further discussion is needed?

Was just thinking that, not very Trump and usa lol

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10 hours ago, MC Prussian said:

The Dems' reaction to his words on Twitter (sic!) is priceless, the four Congresswomen of the Apocalypse are going AWOL. Their common press conference was hilarious, so many butt-hurt feelings (but little factual content), plus Omar pretty much made up her own facts when she talked about Trump. She blatantly lied. lol

All the accusations she threw at Trump are but that - accusations. He's been cleared by the Mueller report, but facts don't matter when they meet feelings, do they?

 

Can't stand that woman in particular, they way she speaks in this arrogant, condescending, ivory tower manner. Plus, no condemnation for the attack on the ICE facility in Tacoma, WA - none of the four did. And Omar's stance on ISIS is pretty clear, too (she loves them).

 

The whole impeachment demands are but a smokescreen for the Democrats' heavily struggling party and cohesion.

You clearly haven't read the Mueller report, have you?

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1 hour ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

The minor difference being that Trump's racist tweets related to three citizens born in the USA, and the other naturalised after coming over as a child.

 

Nice try though!

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12 minutes ago, marko said:

The minor difference being that Trump's racist tweets related to three citizens born in the USA, and the other naturalised after coming over as a child.

 

Nice try though!

This post is a fantastic contender for most unedifying anti-Trump post of the day. You guys are really outdoing yourselves

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4 minutes ago, AlloverthefloorYesNdidi said:

This post is a fantastic contender for most unedifying anti-Trump post of the day. You guys are really outdoing yourselves

If you think the words in my post are unedifying, then you must be truly appalled by Cadet Bone Spur's tweets!

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11 minutes ago, MC Prussian said:

#nocollusion

Yeah, it didn't say that either. 

 

Over 100 points of contact between the Trump campaign, the Russian government and associates. It also stated how the Trump campaign hamstrung the investigation by deleting key evidence of communications, and that they "cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report."

 

That's before we even get started on Trump's effort to obstruct justice. As for your claims that Trump was cleared, I think the Mueller's words suggest otherwise - “If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state,” 

 

Why would an innocent man obstruct an investigation?

 

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43 minutes ago, marko said:

Yeah, it didn't say that either. 

 

Over 100 points of contact between the Trump campaign, the Russian government and associates. It also stated how the Trump campaign hamstrung the investigation by deleting key evidence of communications, and that they "cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light on (or cast in a new light) the events described in the report."

 

That's before we even get started on Trump's effort to obstruct justice. As for your claims that Trump was cleared, I think the Mueller's words suggest otherwise - “If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state,” 

 

Why would an innocent man obstruct an investigation?

 

So, in a nutshell, no evidence of collusion

 

There was also insufficient evidence of obstruction

 

He won. Time for you to build a bridge, get over it, and observe America becoming great again :)

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