Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 1 minute ago, Buce said: We need a strong and stable government (sound familiar?) to take us through Brexit; May used that as an excuse to call the election in the first place, and her position is considerably weaker than then I would say the same if Labour were trying to run a minority government under these circumstances - I want what's best for my country, not what's best for the Labour Party. I agree, this has totally fcuked us and I think we are heading for a "no deal" now with Europe. Ideally I'd like a majority but that's not what the public have given us. But I don't see another election producing a different result now anytime soon, either side could need a 10pt lead for a majority with the collapse of the third parties.
ramboacdc Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 The exchanges seem to still believe another election is imminent. That or no faith in the current government. pound is sliding down again. getting close to its lowest in 12 months on the euro. Dollar has some time to go before it gets to that october low. https://uk.investing.com/currencies/gbp-eur https://uk.investing.com/currencies/gbp-usd
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, ramboacdc said: The exchanges seem to still believe another election is imminent. That or no faith in the current government. pound is sliding down again. getting close to its lowest in 12 months on the euro. Dollar has some time to go before it gets to that october low. https://uk.investing.com/currencies/gbp-eur https://uk.investing.com/currencies/gbp-usd The betting exchanges have no election this year as a comfortable favourite, to put it simply, the Conservative are not going to risk one at this point. The pound started to drop when it looked like Corbyn would be PM, then it stablised, now it's uncertain and no one has any idea what is happening, markets are unstable when governments are, not because they think another election is possible.
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 This thread is whats being echoed up and down the country. By taking the action she has, May has unintentionally completely fvcked things up for the foreseeable future. Everyone is trapped in a situation they dont want to be in and there really isnt a way out other than another election which by no means guarantees that we'd be anywhere other than where we are now. The referendum and the GE are looking like possibly the two biggest errors of judgement in modern political times. This arrangement with the DUP just wont work because nobody really wants it to. May will be gone soon and everyone knows it and even if she doesnt, her credibility is shot to pieces and she's proved that she isn't fit to be PM. This really is a bad scenario that is so much bigger than who has the right to form a government.
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 1 minute ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: This thread is whats being echoed up and down the country. By taking the action she has, May has unintentionally completely fvcked things up for the foreseeable future. Everyone is trapped in a situation they dont want to be in and there really isnt a way out other than another election which by no means guarantees that we'd be anywhere other than where we are now. The referendum and the GE are looking like possibly the two biggest errors of judgement in modern political times. This arrangement with the DUP just wont work because nobody really wants it to. May will be gone soon and everyone knows it and even if she doesnt, her credibility is shot to pieces and she's proved that she isn't fit to be PM. This really is a bad scenario that is so much bigger than who has the right to form a government. I agree, it's a total shambles, a disaster in fact. But we've now got to try and make the best of it and that's going to be the only scenario possible, a Conservative minority relying on the votes of the DUP.
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 14 minutes ago, MattP said: Totally unrealistic and you know it. Although I hope you stick to this if Labour win 325 seats at some point in the future. Labour to be fair would have an ally available to them though who perhaps didn't represent the politics of a 1970's hate campaign.... Why is it that the Tories don't have such an option? Surely one has to to question one's politics when this group are they only option as a friend and even they are gonna shaft you royally for the privilege.
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 So all this aside whats the process going forward - how does Parliament vote for or prevent this government moving forward?
Buce Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, Swan Lesta said: Labour to be fair would have an ally available to them though who perhaps didn't represent the politics of a 1970's hate campaign.... Why is it that the Tories don't have such an option? Surely one has to to question one's politics when this group are they only option as a friend and even they are gonna shaft you royally for the privilege. Because they are reaping what they sow. Always the Nasty Party.
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: I agree, it's a total shambles, a disaster in fact. But we've now got to try and make the best of it and that's going to be the only scenario possible, a Conservative minority relying on the votes of the DUP. Its what comes after that that worries me more. This arrangement will be ****ed in a couple of months tops. The DUP are not a rational organisation. They'll smell weakness and try and exploit it. Plus Sinn Fein will look for any excuse to kick off. There's already massive distrust there between the two and this will amplify it. In a way, i'd prefer for all parties to just say for the next two years, we'll have cross party cooperation on Brexit just to get through it. Agree some really weak version of it where we remain in the single market and just pay whatever penalty they want. Draw a line under it and then have another General Election where everyone knows exactly where we are, what we can afford and what our long term goals as a country are.
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, Buce said: Because they are reaping what they sow. Always the Nasty Party. @Buce you just pipe down you know full well that question wasn't yours.
ramboacdc Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 10 minutes ago, MattP said: The betting exchanges have no election this year as a comfortable favourite, to put it simply, the Conservative are not going to risk one at this point. The pound started to drop when it looked like Corbyn would be PM, then it stablised, now it's uncertain and no one has any idea what is happening, markets are unstable when governments are, not because they think another election is possible. the market dropped at the exit poll. one thing they all hate is uncertainty. bad for business. even if corbyn would have become leader it would have steadied. its the same as when brexit happened the pound dropped and the FTSE rose because a lot of companies do their business in dollars and you had the leave campaign saying "highest FTSE ever = good things" as someone who has to spend every day staring at these graphs it just says to me they markets have no current faith. whether that will change if the queens speech gets through i don't know. but right now I wouldn't buy your holiday money.
Buce Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 5 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: @Buce you just pipe down you know full well that question wasn't yours. Sorry. I thought you would prefer an honest assessment..
ramboacdc Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/12/heres-how-theresa-may-could-be-overthrown-at-1922-committee-meeting-6702437/?ito=facebook Now only 47 needed to overthrow her. That does seem possible to happen. only got to take a few back benchers really. Edit to tag @MattP in as cant do it on phone. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 4 minutes ago, ramboacdc said: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/12/heres-how-theresa-may-could-be-overthrown-at-1922-committee-meeting-6702437/?ito=facebook Now only 47 needed to overthrow her. That does seem possible to happen. only got to take a few back benchers really. Edit to tag @MattP in as cant do it on phone. Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk Ooh All hail the Monkey 47 party!
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 7 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: Labour to be fair would have an ally available to them though who perhaps didn't represent the politics of a 1970's hate campaign.... Why is it that the Tories don't have such an option? Surely one has to to question one's politics when this group are they only option as a friend and even they are gonna shaft you royally for the privilege. If you are right wing you vote Tory, if you are left and you get into the bed with the right you get destroyed, just look at what happened to Nick Clegg, they wouldn't admit it but Labour's only real alternative is the Liberals anyway, they would destroy their own credibility if they seriously tried to form a government with a party like the Greens or Plaid at Westminster - t's easy to be nice to everyone and say you'll spend money you haven't got on everything like those parties do when they know they are never going to have to be in charge of a budget, Labour and the Conservatives are a party of government. Although my guess is you'll see the Tories loosen the purse strings now anyway, no guilt in leaving the young facing a huge bill if they are going to vote for Corbyn en masse, if it looks like they are going to lose they aren't going to leave Labout in a position where they can come in and splurge either, let's see how good a job they'll do when they have to implement cuts as well. 6 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: So all this aside whats the process going forward - how does Parliament vote for or prevent this government moving forward? Government produces a Queen's speech, it either gets voted through or voted down - providing they get the DUP support it goes through. 4 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Its what comes after that that worries me more. This arrangement will be ****ed in a couple of months tops. The DUP are not a rational organisation. They'll smell weakness and try and exploit it. Plus Sinn Fein will look for any excuse to kick off. There's already massive distrust there between the two and this will amplify it. In a way, i'd prefer for all parties to just say for the next two years, we'll have cross party cooperation on Brexit just to get through it. Agree some really weak version of it where we remain in the single market and just pay whatever penalty they want. Draw a line under it and then have another General Election where everyone knows exactly where we are, what we can afford and what our long term goals as a country are. People said the same about the Conservative and Liberal coaition, it lasted five years, one thing we all should learn is to be very humble with out political predictions after the last few years. But why does anyone else have a mandate to be in the Brexit talks? People overwhelmingly rejected the Greens, Lib Dems and SNP whose approach to Brexit id far different than Labour and the Tories who got nearly 85% of the vote. Another General Election isn't going to happen, we were being told 6 weeks ago people were sick of this, you can't just say let's have another one because we might be able to kick the Tories out in the next one.
Guest Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 12 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Its what comes after that that worries me more. This arrangement will be ****ed in a couple of months tops. The DUP are not a rational organisation. They'll smell weakness and try and exploit it. Plus Sinn Fein will look for any excuse to kick off. There's already massive distrust there between the two and this will amplify it. In a way, i'd prefer for all parties to just say for the next two years, we'll have cross party cooperation on Brexit just to get through it. Agree some really weak version of it where we remain in the single market and just pay whatever penalty they want. Draw a line under it and then have another General Election where everyone knows exactly where we are, what we can afford and what our long term goals as a country are. Imo this is the only workable strategy. It also happens to produce a brexit i could live with. The reality is soft brexit is the middle ground and is probably the only way forward.
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 3 minutes ago, toddybad said: Imo this is the only workable strategy. It also happens to produce a brexit i could live with. The reality is soft brexit is the middle ground and is probably the only way forward. Barry Gardiner has just confirmed again on the Daily Politics that Labour is committed to leaving the Single Market. What's the soft brexit that doesn't entail that?
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: If you are right wing you vote Tory, if you are left and you get into the bed with the right you get destroyed, just look at what happened to Nick Clegg, they wouldn't admit it but Labour's only real alternative is the Liberals anyway, they would destroy their own credibility if they seriously tried to form a government with a party like the Greens or Plaid at Westminster - t's easy to be nice to everyone and say you'll spend money you haven't got on everything like those parties do when they know they are never going to have to be in charge of a budget, Labour and the Conservatives are a party of government. Although my guess is you'll see the Tories loosen the purse strings now anyway, no guilt in leaving the young facing a huge bill if they are going to vote for Corbyn en masse, if it looks like they are going to lose they aren't going to leave Labout in a position where they can come in and splurge either, let's see how good a job they'll do when they have to implement cuts as well. Government produces a Queen's speech, it either gets voted through or voted down - providing they get the DUP support it goes through. People said the same about the Conservative and Liberal coaition, it lasted five years, one thing we all should learn is to be very humble with out political predictions after the last few years. But why does anyone else have a mandate to be in the Brexit talks? People overwhelmingly rejected the Greens, Lib Dems and SNP whose approach to Brexit id far different than Labour and the Tories who got nearly 85% of the vote. Another General Election isn't going to happen, we were being told 6 weeks ago people were sick of this, you can't just say let's have another one because we might be able to kick the Tories out in the next one. Yeah but Clegg was treated appallingly by the government and the press. Labour would work with the SNP anyway I would think? This government I'm sure will get through but some of the appointments are really awful - Gove's been given a job he shouldn't be anywhere near to keep him quiet at best. On an aside I think Caroline Lucas is way and by far the truest Leader of people (policies aside) she is a truly inspiring individual - If I were her I'd defect to the liberals and lead them and I genuinely believe people would follow...
Guest Kopfkino Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 8 minutes ago, MattP said: Although my guess is you'll see the Tories loosen the purse strings now anyway, no guilt in leaving the young facing a huge bill if they are going to vote for Corbyn en masse, if it looks like they are going to lose they aren't going to leave Labout in a position where they can come in and splurge either, let's see how good a job they'll do when they have to implement cuts as well. I don't think they can do this. All that will happen is there will be criticism of going back on the policy of the last 7 years and suggestions the last 7 years were unnecessary. Leave Labour to be the party of spending and actually make the case for fiscal responsibility again, it won the election in 2015. Osborne is dearly missed in this respect. I don't understand why the Conservatives aren't out there reminding the youth that every pound borrowed today has to be paid back from their future taxes, that public services of the future will suffer further. Or let them know that the current interest bill is equal to the schools budget. I find it bizarre that Labour got away with the economics of it. But then I think Norman Lamb said that May, as Home Sec, never had much interest in the economics of policy. Probably says a lot.
Guest Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Barry Gardiner has just confirmed again on the Daily Politics that Labour is committed to leaving the Single Market. What's the soft brexit that doesn't entail that? If we get tariff free access to the single market then that's as close to bring in it as we could get. That is a softer brexit, particularly given the backsliding that the tories will have to do on immigration, eu courts, human rights and the divorce bill to get it. David Davies already hinting about accepting the eu timetable which means discussing the divorce bill before trade talks begin. Like with everything else, the tories have just lied to getv their core vote out.
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: Yeah but Clegg was treated appallingly by the government and the press. Labour would work with the SNP anyway I would think? This government I'm sure will get through but some of the appointments are really awful - Gove's been given a job he shouldn't be anywhere near to keep him quiet at best. On an aside I think Caroline Lucas is way and by far the truest Leader of people (policies aside) she is a truly inspiring individual - If I were her I'd defect to the liberals and lead them and I genuinely believe people would follow... Corbyn would probably work with the SNP, but can you imagine the fall out from that North of the Border? No one who has voted Labour would ever vote for them again, you would be walking the Tories into 20/25 seats up there. Would the Liberals have her? She once stood up in parliament and said the country should borrow until we can't afford to pay it back, it's absolutely crazy and while she might be radical enough to win Brighton I'd imagine economically literate liberals would shudder at the thought of her leading the party.
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, MattP said: Corbyn would probably work with the SNP, but can you imagine the fall out from that North of the Border? No one who has voted Labour would ever vote for them again, you would be walking the Tories into 20/25 seats up there. Would the Liberals have her? She once stood up in parliament and said the country should borrow until we can't afford to pay it back, it's absolutely crazy and while she might be radical enough to win Brighton I'd imagine economically literate liberals would shudder at the thought of her leading the party. Who?
Strokes Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 54 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: I hope we go back to the polls. Yeah me too, as it stands right now I would vote Labour. Although if it does go back to the polls, presumably the tories would have a new leader and a new manifesto so.........
Guest MattP Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 1 minute ago, toddybad said: If we get tariff free access to the single market then that's as close to bring in it as we could get. That is a softer brexit, particularly given the backsliding that the tories will have to do on immigration, eu courts, human rights and the divorce bill to get it. David Davies already hinting about accepting the eu timetable which means discussing the divorce bill before trade talks begin. Like with everything else, the tories have just lied to getv their core vote out. This makes no sense at all, if the Tories backslide on immigration, eu courts and human rights then we may as well just stay in he single market, what would be the point of leaving it? Got a link to that from Davis as he didn't say that this morning, watching the Daily Poltiics now is strange, you have the Tories putting across a softer Brexit than Labour. 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: Who? People like Farron, the reason he refused to budge on things like tuition fees is because he said the Liberal Democrats won't be a party who promise things they know they can't afford.
Nick Posted 12 June 2017 Posted 12 June 2017 Just now, Strokes said: Yeah me too, as it stands right now I would vote Labour. Although if it does go back to the polls, presumably the tories would have a new leader and a new manifesto so......... Yep stick in Boris or Davies and lets go again - then we'll know if its Party or person and get a real outcome. Nobody wants her in charge thats clear. I do think we should do it like the French anyway - the other parties have lost so now we have a vote between the big two - that'd be fair and decent.
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