Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Strokes]

10 minutes ago, Captain... said:

His cultural background was a white middle class right wing fundamentalist Christian, but we don't label all white right wing middle class christian males as Nazis, we don't imply that all white right wing middle class christian males are murderers by proxy. White Supremacists are scum, as are ISIS, Terrorists, Murderers and Paedophiles.

No but we are not labelling these as brown paedos either, what's the difference?

[Guest MattP]

9 minutes ago, Captain... said:

His cultural background was a white middle class right wing fundamentalist Christian, but we don't label all white right wing middle class christian males as Nazis, we don't imply that all white right wing middle class christian males are murderers by proxy. White Supremacists are scum, as are ISIS, Terrorists, Murderers and Paedophiles.

I have no idea how many times people need to say this, no one is saying all Muslims are pedophiles, no one is saying all Pakistanis are peadophiles, what she was saying is the Pakistani community has quite a severe problem now within it that some of it's men see white girls as trash and see no problem with grooming and raping them.

 

Stop throwing up this strawman argument you keep doing to try and shut down the debate that people are saying "all X are rapists" by acknowledging this, they aren't.

[The Floyd]

31 minutes ago, Captain... said:

You disagree with me, because I don't express the same view in exactly the same way.

 

Have you even read my posts? My issue with the article was the focus on the ethnicity aspect, the click bait headlines, and the inflammatory opening line, all of that is very poor from the equalities minister. Singling out one ethnic group when it wasn't even a single ethnic group in the gang is stupid.

 

The points she made in the rest of the article were fair and valid and I have said she should be applauded for the actions she has taken, but the reason for targetting the "political elite" (I probably should have said establishment) is because they aren't doing enough. They were responsible for society failing those girls. The fact they were majority Pakistani group is irrelevant, sadly child sexual abuse exists in our world, and I don't know what we can do to change that. What we can control as a society is how we react to these incidents being reported and we failed those girls massively. That is what mustn't happen again, regardless of the ethnicity of the abusers all reports of sexual abuse must be taken seriously and acted upon.

She quite clearly outlines those problems in the article. You don't seem to want to accept that the issues can be twofold here; the passivity of the police and the cultural significance of the incidents, it doesn't have to be one or the other. 

 

I agree that singling out Pakistanis is strange, as that isn't the common denominator within these groups, but the vulgar remarks made by these attackers regarding their victims show that culture or religion does have some bearing on their actions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 August 2017 by The Floyd

[Captain...]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

I have no idea how many times people need to say this, no one is saying all Muslims are pedophiles, no one is saying all Pakistanis are peadophiles, what she was saying is the Pakistani community has quite a severe problem now within it that some of it's men see white girls as trash and see no problem with grooming and raping them.

 

Stop throwing up this strawman argument you keep doing to try and shut down the debate that people are saying "all X are rapists" by acknowledging this, they aren't.

I'm not shutting down any debate with you, it was a response to the good Dr.

 

I have not said that people are saying "all X are rapists", you should just read my words and not put on your oh my god a lefty is talking filter and add in your own context and subtext.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Wouldn't really champion this woman as any kind of 'truthsayer'. Personally I'd have a lot more respect for her if she hadn't instantly backed down from her position as soon as it was deemed controversial. She should either have resigned over the hostile reception the article received within her own party and Labour's refusal to acknowledge the issue, or had the power of her own convictions and held strong. She could have been a leading figure in bringing the issue to prominence. Instead, she took the coward's way out and chose the worst of all possible paths in resigning for party PR. What an absolute let down. Kind of sums up the state of politics. She clearly feels strongly about the issue..but not half as strongly as she does about her own advancement. She'll probably wind up counting pieces of silver in some cushy Labour HQ desk job in the next 12 months

[Captain...]

4 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

She quite clearly outlines those problems in the article. You don't seem to want to accept that the issues can be twofold here; the passivity of the police and the cultural significance of the incidents, it doesn't have to be one or the other. 

 

I agree that singling out Pakistanis is strange, as that isn't the common denominator within these groups, but the vulgar remarks made by these attackers regarding their victims show that culture or religion does have some bearing on their actions. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is exactly what I have said, the issue is two fold, but the click baity headline and inflammatory opening line was focussing on the Pakistani issue, which changed the whole tone of the article.  If the Headline had been, Politicians and police stand by and do nothing while your children get raped! Then cut the first line, she probably wouldn't have been sacked and it would have had just as much impact without it coming across as an attack on a single ethnicity.

 

As a politician and not a member of a pakistani/muslim community she can't do much to affect change in those communities but she can affect how policing and societies work. Create support networks and safe environments for all at risk children,  making sure all complaints are taken seriously.

[The Floyd]

5 minutes ago, Captain... said:

That is exactly what I have said, the issue is two fold, but the click baity headline and inflammatory opening line was focussing on the Pakistani issue, which changed the whole tone of the article.  If the Headline had been, Politicians and police stand by and do nothing while your children get raped! Then cut the first line, she probably wouldn't have been sacked and it would have had just as much impact without it coming across as an attack on a single ethnicity.

 

As a politician and not a member of a pakistani/muslim community she can't do much to affect change in those communities but she can affect how policing and societies work. Create support networks and safe environments for all at risk children,  making sure all complaints are taken seriously.

Is it? You said 'She should have targeted and attacked the political elite with her article, not an ethnic group.', why should she not attack both? Which, incidentally, she did. You also said that one of your problems with the headline was that it was inflammatory, and then you suggest an equally as inflammatory headline as its replacement. 

 

She's an MP for Rotherham so of course she can seek to implement change in those communities just as much as she can seek to implement changes to the police force.

 

 

[Captain...]

12 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

Is it? You said 'She should have targeted and attacked the political elite with her article, not an ethnic group.', why should she not attack both? Which, incidentally, she did. You also said that one of your problems with the headline was that it was inflammatory, and then you suggest an equally as inflammatory headline as its replacement. 

 

She's an MP for Rotherham so of course she can seek to implement change in those communities just as much as she can seek to implement changes to the police force.

 

 

The article was 2 fold, but she chose the Pakistani line to be the focal point rather than the inadequacies of the government and police, no shadow minister gets sacked for attacking the current government. If you want a sensational headline, then go for my one. Apart form the headline and the first line there is nothing much to argue with that article. Those 2 lines set the tone for the article and turn it into an attack on Pakistani men.

 

Even as MP for Rotherham, she is not going to be able to enforce a cultural change on a muslim community, she can open dialogue with their community leaders, but if there is an endemic issue with child rape in muslim communities she is not going to be able to change their mindset quickly, especially not with that headline, and any cultural education programs will take time and meet some resistance, especially if coming from outside the community. What she, and others, can do as a politicians is put the safeguards in place now to stop anything like this happening again. The priorities are to protect children from all predators, nobody can argue and disagree with that point. You make the debate about targeting a specific group, whether it is muslim, pakistani, eastern europeans or catholic priests you lose focus of the priority and that is protecting the vulnerable in our society.

Edited 17 August 2017 by Captain...

[Realist Guy In The Room]

50 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Ethnicity and culture may be vehicles for this behaviour but its arguably not the cause. There are many grooming and CSE perpetrators from all backgrounds and the common denominator is gender based and related to the construction of masculinity, a complete lack of empathy and disregard for the worth of young women and children inclusive of their sexual rights. This occurs in all ethnicities and backgrounds and nobody is saying that when it does so in Pakistani cultures this isn't a problem - its just perhaps not fair that due contemporary findings which get huge media attention that this gets labelled as soley a Pakistani or Muslim problem. Its a problem with men, masculinity and gender across all cultures.

 

I'm in no way attempting to deny the patterns which have been uncovered over the past ten years that relate to Pakistani and Muslim sexual offenders and believe they need to be addressed through research, study and preventative campaigns targeted within communities. As somebody who has spent years working with Social Care Practitioners, Sex Offenders and helping services and individual professionals react to the lessons to be learnt from serious case reviews, I am not ready to label this problem as a Pakistani or Muslim trait - I am however prepared to acknowledge that cultures and religions may be used as a vehicle to carry, justify and bring together groups of men in order to perpetrate such types of offending. And that can of course range from Catholicism, Boy Scouts Clubs, Swimming Teachers and boarding school staff to Muslim and Pakistani males.

 

But its not all Catholics. Its not all Swimming Teachers. Its not all Boy Scouts Groups. It's not all boarding school staff and its certainly not all Muslim and Pakistani men.

 

So lets call it what it is - a problem with men.

 

A problem with the construction of masculinity (culturally reinforced or otherwise)

 

A problem with how some men see women and children.

 

A problem with empathy and a void of care for the sexual rights of children and young women.

 

And lets treat the issue at source as gender specific - not just label, demonise, sling mud and create moral panics directed at any particular demographic.

 

This to me is exactly right.

[Guest BlueBrett]

52 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Ethnicity and culture may be vehicles for this behaviour but its arguably not the cause. There are many grooming and CSE perpetrators from all backgrounds and the common denominator is gender based and related to the construction of masculinity, a complete lack of empathy and disregard for the worth of young women and children inclusive of their sexual rights. This occurs in all ethnicities and backgrounds and nobody is saying that when it does so in Pakistani cultures this isn't a problem - its just perhaps not fair that due contemporary findings which get huge media attention that this gets labelled as soley a Pakistani or Muslim problem. Its a problem with men, masculinity and gender across all cultures.

 

I'm in no way attempting to deny the patterns which have been uncovered over the past ten years that relate to Pakistani and Muslim sexual offenders and believe they need to be addressed through research, study and preventative campaigns targeted within communities. As somebody who has spent years working with Social Care Practitioners, Sex Offenders and helping services and individual professionals react to the lessons to be learnt from serious case reviews, I am not ready to label this problem as a Pakistani or Muslim trait - I am however prepared to acknowledge that cultures and religions may be used as a vehicle to carry, justify and bring together groups of men in order to perpetrate such types of offending. And that can of course range from Catholicism, Boy Scouts Clubs, Swimming Teachers and boarding school staff to Muslim and Pakistani males.

 

But its not all Catholics. Its not all Swimming Teachers. Its not all Boy Scouts Groups. It's not all boarding school staff and its certainly not all Muslim and Pakistani men.

 

So lets call it what it is - a problem with men.

 

A problem with the construction of masculinity (culturally reinforced or otherwise)

 

A problem with how some men see women and children.

 

A problem with empathy and a void of care for the sexual rights of children and young women.

 

And lets treat the issue at source as gender specific - not just label, demonise, sling mud and create moral panics directed at any particular demographic.

 

No no no no no. Women abuse children too - mentally, physically and yes, sexually. It's just that it tends to be one of those 'hidden crimes' like male on male rape (which plenty of research suggests is actually more common that male on female rape) When a man sexually abuses a child there will often be obvious physical evidence. Not so when some dumpy frumpy decides to fondle a schoolboy. There are several other reasons it is less likely to be reported/detected too. Child abuse is not, never has been nor will be, a perversion exclusive to men

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

This to me is exactly right.

But it isn't. In fact it's so far off the mark it's incredible and totally ignores who is being convicted and who is the victim. Anyone who believes this is a useful idiot for the grooming gangs.

 

The argument you have quoted totally falls apart as soon you read the cases and realise these men aren't raping the girls because of a lack of respect for women, but because of a lack of respect for different religion and culture, these gangs don't rape Muslim women, they seem the as pure, women who need to be respected sexually, women whose innocence is important, then they see a white girl and see her as a slag, one who is immoral and one who whom is it fine to ply with substances, treat like shit and gang rape.

 

And that's exactly why the culutural part of this is huge.

 

If I said I was going to rape a Muslim girl tonight because they are worthless, scum and deserve it, but I would never do the same to a white girl because they are pure and should be untouched before marriage to a fellow white man- the problem with me is that I'm a racist rapist and that's why I hold those beliefs, not because I'm a man who sees a women as inferior.

Edited 17 August 2017 by MattP

[Guest BlueBrett]

Just now, MattP said:

But it isn't. In fact it's so far off the mark it's incredible and totally ignores who is being convicted and who is the victim.

 

The argument you have quoted totally falls apart as soon you read the cases and realise these men aren't raping the girls because of a lack of respect for women, but because of a lack of respect for different religion and culture, these gangs don't rape Muslim women, they seem the as pure, women who need to be respected sexually, women whose innocence is important, then they see a white girl and see her as a slag, one who is immoral and one who whom is it fine to ply with substances, treat like shit and gang rape.

 

And that's exactly why the culutural part of this is huge.

 

If I said I was going to rape a Muslim girl tonight because they are worthless, scum and deserve it, but I would never do the same to a white girl because they are pure and should be untouched before marriage to a fellow white man- the problem with me is that I'm a racist rapist and that's why I hold those beliefs, not because I'm a man who sees a women as inferior.

Yeh and also this

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, BlueBrett said:

No no no no no. Women abuse children too - mentally, physically and yes, sexually. It's just that it tends to be one of those 'hidden crimes' like male on male rape (which plenty of research suggests is actually more common that male on female rape) When a man sexually abuses a child there will often be obvious physical evidence. Not so when some dumpy frumpy decides to fondle a schoolboy. There are several other reasons it is less likely to be reported/detected too. Child abuse is not, never has been nor will be, a perversion exclusive to men

I'm of course not suggesting it is.

 

But we're talking about men, males and the grooming of young women and children specifically.

 

Happy to open the argument up though!

 

 

[Nick]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

But it isn't. In fact it's so far off the mark it's incredible and totally ignores who is being convicted and who is the victim.

 

The argument you have quoted totally falls apart as soon you read the cases and realise these men aren't raping the girls because of a lack of respect for women, but because of a lack of respect for different religion and culture, these gangs don't rape Muslim women, they seem the as pure, women who need to be respected sexually, women whose innocence is important, then they see a white girl and see her as a slag, one who is immoral and one who whom is it fine to ply with substances, treat like shit and gang rape.

 

And that's exactly why the culutural part of this is huge.

 

If I said I was going to rape a Muslim girl tonight because they are worthless, scum and deserve it, but I would never do the same to a white girl because they are pure and should be untouched before marriage to a fellow white man- the problem with me is that I'm a racist rapist and that's why I hold those beliefs, not because I'm a man who sees a women as inferior.

Honest question and its not a racist card....Do you think your more offended by a Pakistani man raping a white girl than a white man raping a child?

 

I would argue the cultural part is used as a vehicle to justify paedophilic actions rather than the sole reason for the abuse - otherwise all Pakistani men would be doing it, right?

 

Lot's of Muslims might disagree with the way young western girls present to them but they don't go around abusing them - are you saying that if they were not British born they wouldn't be raping young girls if they lived in a different country?

 

[Strokes]

1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

Honest question and its not a racist card....Do you think your more offended by a Pakistani man raping a white girl than a white man raping a child?

 

I would argue the cultural part is used as a vehicle to justify paedophilic actions rather than the sole reason for the abuse - otherwise all Pakistani men would be doing it, right?

 

Lot's of Muslims might disagree with the way young western girls present to them but they don't go around abusing them - are you saying that if they were not British born they wouldn't be raping young girls if they lived in a different country?

 

I find it extra offensive that these girls are being targeted because they are not Muslims yes.

 

If this was white gangs, targeting only ethnic girls I doubt we would find any need to be so sensitive with our language. To me that's wrong.

[Guest BlueBrett]

4 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

I would argue the cultural part is used as a vehicle to justify paedophilic actions rather than the sole reason for the abuse - otherwise all Pakistani men would be doing it, right?

 

 

If it's how they justify it to themselves then aren't you basically agreeing with Matt's point?

[Nick]

Just now, Strokes said:

I find it extra offensive that these girls are being targeted because they are not Muslims yes.

 

If this was white gangs, targeting only ethnic girls I doubt we would find any need to be so sensitive with our language. To me that's wrong.

 

I would argue that girls are being groomed and targeted because of their vulnerability. The profile of them being white fits the cultural justification rather than the fact that the perpetrator is an abuser and a sex offender and has issues around human women and children full stop - thats about how they justify their offending to themselves rather than arguably the cause of it.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

Honest question and its not a racist card....Do you think your more offended by a Pakistani man raping a white girl than a white man raping a child?

 

I would argue the cultural part is used as a vehicle to justify paedophilic actions rather than the sole reason for the abuse - otherwise all Pakistani men would be doing it, right?

 

Lot's of Muslims might disagree with the way young western girls present to them but they don't go around abusing them - are you saying that if they were not British born they wouldn't be raping young girls if they lived in a different country?

Why you say Pakistani raping a white girl but white man raping a child? They are two different questions, I would more upset at a child being raped than an adult whatever the colour.

If the answer is to a girl of the same age then it's yes, in the same way I find a racist murder more upsetting that a normal one, if bad things happen to anyone I find it appalling and sad but when people are targetting because other people believe they are worthless because of something like the colour of their skin I think it makes it much worse. I think the courts do tend to side with me on that as is a crime is aggrevated by those things the sentence is harsher, something that should also apply in this.

 

I have no idea of the answer to the last question, I do know they wouldn't get it as easy in many other countries though, they wouldn't get the natives trying to shut down debate about it or politicians and police sweeping it under the carper so they don't upset people - that should enrage people more than anything.

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

I would argue that girls are being groomed and targeted because of their vulnerability. The profile of them being white fits the cultural justification rather than the fact that the perpetrator is an abuser and a sex offender and has issues around human women and children full stop - thats about how they justify their offending to themselves rather than arguably the cause of it.

Then how do you explain there has never been a Muslim victim of this? There are plenty of vulnerable Muslim girls as well in care. We know from the incident in Leicester some have managed to even find Sikh girls to prey on, yet they are a fraction of the Muslim population.

 

It's going to take one hell of an effort to try and pass this one off as a coincidence.

Edited 17 August 2017 by MattP

[Nick]

Just now, MattP said:

Then how do you explain there has never been a Muslim victim of this? There are plenty of vulnerable Muslim girls as well in care.

 

Oh, I would argue that there are such victims of CSE within Muslim families - the predatory gang approach fulfils deviant behaviour which would take place elsewhere if young vulnerable white girls were not available to them.

 

I'm only saying Matt that they are sex offending male humans first and Pakistani or Muslim sex offending men who's MO's are culturally justified as so second.

[Nick]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-40961137

 

Child sex abuse is everywhere - it just manifests itself in certain cultures and pastimes in differing ways which form deviant subcultures.

 

Using religion as a vehicle to justify actions and to commit acts in groups with like minded sexual deviants is not new its just happening in Muslim and Pakistani communities and in the spot light - I would argue its also going on in other cultures and religions too - just perhaps in slightly different ways with individuals and groups justifying their behaviours accordingly.

 

Its sad stuff - but I don't believe religion and culture is the cause - just the vehicle.

[Captain...]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

But it isn't. In fact it's so far off the mark it's incredible and totally ignores who is being convicted and who is the victim. Anyone who believes this is a useful idiot for the grooming gangs.

 

The argument you have quoted totally falls apart as soon you read the cases and realise these men aren't raping the girls because of a lack of respect for women, but because of a lack of respect for different religion and culture, these gangs don't rape Muslim women, they seem the as pure, women who need to be respected sexually, women whose innocence is important, then they see a white girl and see her as a slag, one who is immoral and one who whom is it fine to ply with substances, treat like shit and gang rape.

 

And that's exactly why the culutural part of this is huge.

 

If I said I was going to rape a Muslim girl tonight because they are worthless, scum and deserve it, but I would never do the same to a white girl because they are pure and should be untouched before marriage to a fellow white man- the problem with me is that I'm a racist rapist and that's why I hold those beliefs, not because I'm a man who sees a women as inferior.

I think the problem is people are talking about specific things and are looking at it from different angles, your post is clearly focusing on the Pakistani muslim aspect, and the cutural aspect, other posts have been about the wider issue of rape and sexual abuse, my posts have been more on the tone and ill advised nature of the article from an equalities minister, and the societal failings of the vulnerable.

 

We aren't all wrong, but we are looking at things from different view points, and it is important to remember that, and we shouldn't jump on every post that differs from your own.

 

If you are talking specifically about how to tackle a culturally ingrained contempt held for white girls I wouldn't have a clue where to start and don't know enough about the subject, which is why I look at the things we can control. One area that the article doesn't cover though is how we have allowed the sexualisation of young girls to become a cultural norm. We are used to seeing young girls dressed in provocative revealing clothes and older women dressed as sexualised school girls etc along  with the glamourisation/normalisation of sex and drugs and alcohol within our culture. Of course it is no excuse for rape but it is something within our control than we can look to address, these girls were most likely targeted because of how they looked and lured in with alcohol.

[Nick]

55 minutes ago, MattP said:

If I said I was going to rape a Muslim girl tonight because they are worthless, scum and deserve it, but I would never do the same to a white girl because they are pure and should be untouched before marriage to a fellow white man- the problem with me is that I'm a racist rapist and that's why I hold those beliefs, not because I'm a man who sees a women as inferior.

 

 

If you do that first and foremost - you're doing it because you are a sex offender who wants to engage in sexual activity with a child.

 

I'd also argue that if you are prepared to act on your desires, if there were no vulnerable white girls you'd find alternative victims.

 

If you can somehow justify that your offending by denouncing the humanity of your victim and choose to do so by attaching religious or cultural values as a vehicle to justify your abhorrent act thats you just coping with your identity and being a sex offender who happens to be Muslim or Pakistani.

[Dr The Singh]

2 hours ago, Captain... said:

His cultural background was a white middle class right wing fundamentalist Christian, but we don't label all white right wing middle class christian males as Nazis, we don't imply that all white right wing middle class christian males are murderers by proxy. White Supremacists are scum, as are ISIS, Terrorists, Murderers and Paedophiles.

But white middle class right wing fundamentalist do have a problem???  

 

Or should we ignore the problem???

 

And if there problem was causing harm to multiple innocents, should that problem not be addressed?

Edited 17 August 2017 by Dr The Singh

[Strokes]

54 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

 

I would argue that girls are being groomed and targeted because of their vulnerability. The profile of them being white fits the cultural justification rather than the fact that the perpetrator is an abuser and a sex offender and has issues around human women and children full stop - thats about how they justify their offending to themselves rather than arguably the cause of it.

 

 

Interesting, so you don't accept there is also a racist motive to these gangs acts?