Innovindil Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40947087 Interesting employment figures again, wages have nudge up a little bit, still lagging behind inflation but the gap has closed a little. At least it's heading in the right direction. And ZHC's fell by 20k compared to a year earlier. Doesn't mention why though, anyone know of any big zhc companies closing?
Guest MattP Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 12 hours ago, KingGTF said: However, as far as I see it, people have moaned that we don't know the government's position on things (why we should know I am unsure, probably the social media age of instant information). The government has obliged by agreeing to publish a series of papers,put forward a perfectly reasonable, if slightly ambitious, position. A 'to-be-decided' transitional agreement, which is the closest thing to consensus this country has seen in god knows how long and one that has previously been supported by MEPs across Europe, and then two models for how it might see a more permanent customs agreement. Nothing overly outlandish, and now up for public debate. Except the remain side doesn't want public debate, it wants steamroller over anything the government says because 'Brexit is a disaster'. I don't think they should publish this stuff because it shows weakness and maybe reveals too much, though thankfully this one is a bit vague. At least it enables businesses and individuals to involve themselves with ideas to aid the government. This was the topic of our conversation in the pub at the weekend, where has this desire now for Government to set out it's position on private negotiations come from? I realise some people want transparancy but when you have crucial talks surely we have to have an element of secrecy to it. As you say, it appears to come from people who actively want to sabotage their own government as they still believe they have a chance of stopping the Brexit process. If ever we needed a privvy council style situation for something then this was it, I find it baffling we weaken our own hand and give people like Guy "I care about your rights but want the money first" Verhofstadt chances to take public potshots at the government. Anyway some good news today with the employment figures, another one of Gideon's predictions vanishing down the toilet - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows Quote Britain’s economy would be tipped into a year-long recession, with at least 500,000 jobs lost and GDP around 3.6% lower, following a vote to leave the EU, new Treasury analysis launched today by the Prime Minister and Chancellor shows. Speaking at B&Q in Eastleigh, Hampshire, the Prime Minister and Chancellor set out the Treasury’s analysis of the impact on the nation’s economy over the immediate period of two years following a vote to leave. This analysis shows that such a decision would cause an immediate and profound economic shock across the country, creating instability and uncertainty which would be made worse by the complex negotiations that would follow to agree the terms of Britain’s exit from the EU and its new relationship with the rest of Europe.
Strokes Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 15 minutes ago, MattP said: This was the topic of our conversation in the pub at the weekend, where has this desire now for Government to set out it's position on private negotiations come from? I realise some people want transparancy but when you have crucial talks surely we have to have an element of secrecy to it. As you say, it appears to come from people who actively want to sabotage their own government as they still believe they have a chance of stopping the Brexit process. If ever we needed a privvy council style situation for something then this was it, I find it baffling we weaken our own hand and give people like Guy "I care about your rights but want the money first" Verhofstadt chances to take public potshots at the government. Anyway some good news today with the employment figures, another one of Gideon's predictions vanishing down the toilet - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-to-enter-recession-with-500000-uk-jobs-lost-if-it-left-eu-new-treasury-analysis-shows It looks to me, like no deal is better than a good deal right now.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) Yep good news on unemployment, not sure we want it to go too much lower tho and it probably won't anyway. I also suspect real pay is actually rising, and reasonably well, in the private sector when you take out the public sector 1% from figures. Big downer is productivity down by 0.1% and now lower than the start of 2008. Edited 16 August 2017 by KingGTF
Buce Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 Sarah Champion forced out for saying what everybody knows to be true. Fvcking political correctness gone mad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224 2
Guest Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 11 minutes ago, Buce said: Sarah Champion forced out for saying what everybody knows to be true. Fvcking political correctness gone mad. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224 I was just thinking exactly this.
Nick Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 She's Rotherham based and so this is particularly close to home for her. I do think it's important to have your facts right when publishing statements around heritage, nationality and faith though when associating these things with paedophilia, child grooming and exploitation. These groups are arguably more visible in terms of prosecution and moral panic publicity compared to white sex offenders due to an array of factors which range from the the vulnerability of victims and the lack of sophistication in their criminal behaviours and activities. There are widespread issues throughout all our communities and this is just the tip of the iceberg - whilst not wishing to play down the horror and gravity of such crimes, I'm simply saying that to focus on this demographic as representing the main problem in relation to the proportion of child sex offending may not be entirely accurate.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 6 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said: She's Rotherham based and so this is particularly close to home for her. I do think it's important to have your facts right when publishing statements around heritage, nationality and faith though when associating these things with paedophilia, child grooming and exploitation. These groups are arguably more visible in terms of prosecution and moral panic publicity compared to white sex offenders due to an array of factors which range from the the vulnerability of victims and the lack of sophistication in their criminal behaviours and activities. There are widespread issues throughout all our communities and this is just the tip of the iceberg - whilst not wishing to play down the horror and gravity of such crimes, I'm simply saying that to focus on this demographic as representing the main problem in relation to the proportion of child sex offending may not be entirely accurate. The problem is the headline was typical Sun fare and immediately got people's backs up. The first couple of lines weren't ideal either but once you get past that it's an entirely reasonable article that raises questions that should be discussed and debated, not swept under the carpet because 'racist'. As she pointed out, these gangs are majority Pakistani men, she was trying to focus on these gangs and not necessarily CSE as a whole. The last few lines gave the actual gist of the article and were highly valuable. "More than 90 per cent of abused children know their abuser — it is usually someone from within the extended family — and the vast majority of convictions are against white men acting alone. However, as the latest case in Newcastle proves, we must accept that for gang-related child sexual exploitation, the convictions have largely been against British Pakistani men. The Government must act now to understand why this is. We have a large group of men behind bars, let’s do some research and find out why these monsters think it is acceptable to abuse children in this way. Unless we know why they do, we can’t prevent it. Our children deserve better."
Nick Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 Sure. Again, I'm not suggesting there's not an issue for one moment. I think though seeing this gang operate and identifying their behaviours as broadly a Male Pakistani trait is awkward as it typecasts a massive demographic of people unfairly. Next I think it important to note your point about prosecution - do we hear more about these crimes because there has been a surge in the spotlight of how to identify them recently and so in turn also become the more intensive focus of Police operations in comparison to other areas involving similar offending? Are there other gangs operating run by men of white backgrounds who are wealthier and more powerful professionally and targeting vulnerable young people of differing backgrounds to those in these more visibly talked about cases currently in the spotlight? The article I thought was inaccurate too as there were people involved from lots of differing nationalities and backgrounds - British born as well I note. I think you are right - there's definitely an issue and I'd love to see some decent research into the problem. I guess I just feel a little frustrated by the spotlight being shone so brightly on a particular group and it being reported on in a very specific way - I'd like to see more balance and more proportional column space dedicated to the perpetrators of all CSE related offending.
Buce Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said: Sure. Again, I'm not suggesting there's not an issue for one moment. I think though seeing this gang operate and identifying their behaviours as broadly a Male Pakistani trait is awkward as it typecasts a massive demographic of people unfairly. Next I think it important to note your point about prosecution - do we hear more about these crimes because there has been a surge in the spotlight of how to identify them recently and so in turn also become the more intensive focus of Police operations in comparison to other areas involving similar offending? Are there other gangs operating run by men of white backgrounds who are wealthier and more powerful professionally and targeting vulnerable young people of differing backgrounds to those in these more visibly talked about cases currently in the spotlight? The article I thought was inaccurate too as there were people involved from lots of differing nationalities and backgrounds - British born as well I note. I think you are right - there's definitely an issue and I'd love to see some decent research into the problem. I guess I just feel a little frustrated by the spotlight being shone so brightly on a particular group and it being reported on in a very specific way - I'd like to see more balance and more proportional column space dedicated to the perpetrators of all CSE related offending. What nobody is saying is that the common denominator of these people from these 'different nationalities and backgrounds' is their religion. The offenders may not all be of Pakistani heritage (though most are) but they are all Muslims.
Carl the Llama Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 6 minutes ago, Buce said: What nobody is saying is that the common denominator of these people from these 'different nationalities and backgrounds' is their religion. The offenders may not all be of Pakistani heritage (though most are) but they are all Muslims. Perhaps, but what about all the white men in powerful positions within organisations like the Met police or the BBC who protect paedophile rings composed of the rich and powerful by strongarming and intimidating (or even assassinating) anybody who gets too close and appears to be on the verge of outing them? Remember Jill Dando... why was she murdered? They must love all the media attention the brown paedos are getting (and rightly so) but it's disingenuous to say they're the root cause of British paedophilia when it's been institutionalised in this country for decades.
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 Being Muslim, Pakistani or whatever has nothing to do with the crime. Exploitation of young girls or boys for sexual gratification has been going on in all cultures and religions all over the world for centuries. It fits the 'muslims are bastards' train that a lot of people have bought a ticket on, and I suppose whilst the focus is solely on that, nobody will ever look to actually tackle the issue of grooming, sex gangs, traffickers, pedo rings etc. Being muslim has no more bearing on their perversion than being Catholic had on the priests who were noncing for years. 2
bovril Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Being Muslim, Pakistani or whatever has nothing to do with the crime. Exploitation of young girls or boys for sexual gratification has been going on in all cultures and religions all over the world for centuries. It fits the 'muslims are bastards' train that a lot of people have bought a ticket on, and I suppose whilst the focus is solely on that, nobody will ever look to actually tackle the issue of grooming, sex gangs, traffickers, pedo rings etc. Being muslim has no more bearing on their perversion than being Catholic had on the priests who were noncing for years. I don't know. Maybe the religion (catholic or muslim) gives them a sense of superiority and untouchability. I think people need to stop seeing religion as 'irrelevant' as race, nationality, etc. I think it's disingenuous to say that a person's religion never has a bearing on their actions. Edited 16 August 2017 by bovril 3
Carl the Llama Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 9 minutes ago, bovril said: I don't know. Maybe the religion (catholic or muslim) gives them a sense of superiority and untouchability. I think people need to stop seeing religion as 'irrelevant' as race, nationality, etc. I think it's disingenuous to say that a person's religion never has a bearing on their actions. Fair point about the emboldening and sense of protection from reprisal, but it's not the being Muslim or being Catholic that makes them abuse kids otherwise there'd be a lot more cases of it.
bovril Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Fair point about the emboldening and sense of protection from reprisal, but it's not the being Muslim or being Catholic that makes them abuse kids otherwise there'd be a lot more cases of it. Obviously. To say background has no bearing on a person's actions is ridiculous though. I've lived in enough places to realise that things like education, wealth, belief system etc inform a individual's decisions in life. Maybe these guys saw women from a different religion with a different skin colour as inferior. Certainly some of the quotes from these guys back that up. Why it's outrageous to suggest that is beyond me. Edited 16 August 2017 by bovril 1
The Floyd Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 3 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Fair point about the emboldening and sense of protection from reprisal, but it's not the being Muslim or being Catholic that makes them abuse kids otherwise there'd be a lot more cases of it. Hm, I'd say the collective scale of Rotherham, Rochdale and Northumbria is quite substantial, the latter of which is obviously not going to be the last case of its kind.
Buce Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 32 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Perhaps, but what about all the white men in powerful positions within organisations like the Met police or the BBC who protect paedophile rings composed of the rich and powerful by strongarming and intimidating (or even assassinating) anybody who gets too close and appears to be on the verge of outing them? Remember Jill Dando... why was she murdered? They must love all the media attention the brown paedos are getting (and rightly so) but it's disingenuous to say they're the root cause of British paedophilia when it's been institutionalised in this country for decades. The thing is, I haven't seen anybody say that white people don't do it, nor that it's only a Pakistani/Muslim problem, and most certainly that it's the root cause of British paedophilia; I certainly didn't want anyone to infer that from what I said. But, in the same way that the powerful are protected by the establishment, so, it seems, are these Muslim grooming gangs being protected by a misguided sense of political correctness. The Newcastle case isn't an isolated incident - it's the latest in a long line of similar cases.
Carl the Llama Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 2 minutes ago, bovril said: Obviously. To say background has no bearing on a person's actions is ridiculous though. I've lived in enough places to realise that things like education, wealth, belief system etc inform a individual's decisions in life. Maybe these guys saw women from a different religion with a different skin colour as inferior. Certainly some of the quotes from these guys back that up. Why it's outrageous to suggest that is beyond me. I've just had a double take at what she said and again you're right there's nothing outrageous about it, I misinterpreted it as a declaration that they are the root cause of the issue. These Pakistani/Bangladeshi gangs are a big fvcking problem there's no two ways about it. 2 minutes ago, The Floyd said: Hm, I'd say the collective scale of Rotherham, Rochdale and Northumbria is quite substantial, the latter of which is obviously not going to be the last case of its kind. Yeah no denying that. Just now, Buce said: The thing is, I haven't seen anybody say that white people don't do it, nor that it's only a Pakistani/Muslim problem, and most certainly that it's the root cause of British paedophilia; I certainly didn't want anyone to infer that from what I said. But, in the same way that the powerful are protected by the establishment, so, it seems, are these Muslim grooming gangs being protected by a misguided sense of political correctness. The Newcastle case isn't an isolated incident - it's the latest in a long line of similar cases. Ffs every time I start replying to one of you pricks the notification beep goes off again. I don't disagree with this point at all (see above). 3
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) The most common factor both in this country and round the world for this type of abuse isnt being muslim, catholic etc. Its men. For some reason, a certain type of man has his wiring all wrong and instead of pursuing a normal sex life, goes down the medieval route of grooming underage, impressionable girls or boys. Background, sense of power, upbringing are all variables that if you examine the problem worldwide, there is not a pattern, apart from, men are at the route. There's a problem somewhere, be it in a muslim community, westminister chamber, the catholic church or the white house (look up pizza gate), men see it in other men and are comfortable enough to engage in coversation. I cant imagine how sick in the head you'd have to be to orchestrate this kind of filth, but for some reason, some men have the disease and act upon it in the most calculated disgusting manner. When I was at school, I remember one of the girls boasting about having a 25 year old boyfriend. One day she was asking the other girls in the class if any of them wanted to go on a triple date with the boyfriend and his mates. That afternoon, he was parked in the bus layby waiting to pick her up and he had two of his mates with him. I distinctly remember saying to a teacher, 'Isnt that a little weird' to which the teacher replied, 'You're just jealous?' Over the next few weeks, rumours were that this girl had a gangbang with the guy and his mates. She seemed to wear that like a badge of honour but she left the school not long after. Maybe i'm wrong and being muslim is the entire problem. But from what i've seen, read and understand about the problem, its really just down to a certain type of perverted man. Edited 16 August 2017 by Realist Guy In The Room
bovril Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 7 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: The most common factor both in this country and round the world for this type of abuse isnt being muslim, catholic etc. Its men. For some reason, a certain type of man has his wiring all wrong and instead of pursuing a normal sex life, goes down the medieval route of grooming underage, impressionable girls or boys. Background, sense of power, upbringing are all variables that if you examine the problem worldwide, there is not a pattern, apart from, men are at the route. There's a problem somewhere, be it in a muslim community, westminister chamber, the catholic church or the white house (look up pizza gate), men see it in other men and are comfortable enough to engage in coversation. seriously?
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bovril said: seriously? Bad example granted. Replace it with the Boston Priest pedo scandal instead. Main point being is its not an exclusive problem. Its worldwide and it doesnt lie in a specific religion. Edited 16 August 2017 by Realist Guy In The Room
bovril Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Bad example granted. Replace it with the Boston Priest pedo scandal instead. Main point being is its not an exclusive problem. Its worldwide and it doesnt lie in a specific religion. Literally nobody has said it does. But because such acts are carried out by people of all religions, doesn't mean that religion isn't a factor. The Boston priest scandal is maybe not the example you want to use. Religion most definitely was a factor in the cover up. It shouldn't be verboten to discuss religion and paedophilia. Anyway, it feels like we're all making the same point multiple times, as usually happens with t'internet. Edited 16 August 2017 by bovril
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 3 minutes ago, bovril said: Literally nobody has said it does. But because such acts are carried out by people of all religions, doesn't mean that religion isn't a factor. The Boston priest scandal is maybe not the example you want to use. Religion most definitely was a factor in the cover up. It shouldn't be verboten to discuss religion and paedophilia. Anyway, it feels like we're all making the same point multiple times, as usually happens with t'internet. Indeed. I just think bringing religion into it (in this case especially) shifts the agenda from what it should be, the protection of vulnerable young people, to yet another, 'not all muslims are bad' debate.
Strokes Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 It's funny how we can judge people who believe in an ideology as group but not the same with religion. What exactly is the difference?
Buce Posted 16 August 2017 Posted 16 August 2017 7 minutes ago, Strokes said: It's funny how we can judge people who believe in an ideology as group but not the same with religion. What exactly is the difference? I would argue that any religion whose followers understand their religious text literally and refuse to accept any way of understanding the religion other than their own way of understanding, is an ideology.
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