Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Carl the Llama]

He can be a bit of a marmite character but Sargon of Akkad did an interesting piece on paedophilia around the time that pizzagate was at its height.  Disturbing subject matter and nsfw (obviously):

 

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

I would argue that any religion whose followers understand their religious text literally and refuse to accept any way of understanding the religion other than their own way of understanding, is an ideology.

So when do political beliefs become an ideology? Would you say the definitions are the same?

Because I really think this covers a lot of people.

[Buce]

6 minutes ago, Strokes said:

So when do political beliefs become an ideology? Would you say the definitions are the same?

Because I really think this covers a lot of people.

 

I guess that's subjective but I would say when one cannot tolerate the existence of opposing views.

[Captain...]

The article was ill advised from a shadow cabinet minister the inflammatory tone at the start with typical click baity headlines changes the whole tone of the article and the balanced arguments buried in the body of the article are lost in the frothing anger caused by the start of the article.

 

The issue of child sexual abuse is not a pleasant one, and whilst there is clearly an element of ethnicity and religion it is by no means exclusive, I don't know the stats and don't want to research them, but there is enough incidents of abuse in clergy and schools, by rock stars, politicians and all kinds of people of influence. The Rotherham scandal was disgusting and the fact that the enquiries showed that the police/politicians refused to investigate because they were scared of being called racist is sickening.

 

If the article focussed its headlines on that element it could have been shocking and inflammatory and right. The tone at the start was one of singling out one group for condemnation, despite it later saying that white man are the predominant abusers.

 

She should be praised for everything she has done to tackle this issue and raising awareness, but allowing that article to go out with that headline and that opening line was stupid and calls into question her position as shadow equalities minister when she appears to be singling out one group.

[Dr The Singh]

6 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Sarah Champion forced out for saying what everybody knows to be true.

 

Fvcking political correctness gone mad.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224

This really foOKed me off, I love this country but for saying g the truth shit like this happens, wtf

[Dr The Singh]

5 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

She's Rotherham based and so this is particularly close to home for her. I do think it's important to have your facts right when publishing statements around heritage, nationality and faith though when associating these things with paedophilia, child grooming and exploitation.

 

These groups are arguably more visible in terms of prosecution and moral panic publicity compared to white sex offenders due to an array of factors which range from the the vulnerability of victims and the lack of sophistication in their criminal behaviours and activities. There are widespread issues throughout all our communities and this is just the tip of the iceberg - whilst not wishing to play down the horror and gravity of such crimes, I'm simply saying that to focus on this demographic as representing the main problem in relation to the proportion of child sex offending may not be entirely accurate.

Her facts are right though, what's the stats on child grooming?  Do you your research and guess what she is right.

[Dr The Singh]

4 hours ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Being Muslim, Pakistani or whatever has nothing to do with the crime.

 

Exploitation of young girls or boys for sexual gratification has been going on in all cultures and religions all over the world for centuries.

 

It fits the 'muslims are bastards' train that a lot of people have bought a ticket on, and I suppose whilst the focus is solely on that, nobody will ever look to actually tackle the issue of grooming, sex gangs, traffickers, pedo rings etc.

 

Being muslim has no more bearing on their perversion than being Catholic had on the priests who were noncing for years.  

 

 

It's about understanding the problem.  In Rotherham and other area there are ghettos of Muslims of mainly Pakistani communities that have a high tendancies for such crime, relative to white or black, Sikh or any other ghettos.  Why is this the case?  

[Dr The Singh]

6 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Sarah Champion forced out for saying what everybody knows to be true.

 

Fvcking political correctness gone mad.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224

What fooks me off even more, the papers/media were happy to call them Asians which demonises many more ethnic minorities but like ting out the Main culprits is wrong

[Nick]

14 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

Her facts are right though, what's the stats on child grooming?  Do you your research and guess what she is right.

Where have I written that she is incorrect? 

 

I've raised some issues around stats already also.

 

The research interestingly points more towards issues relating to gender and the construction of masculinity rather than culture, ethnicity, race or religion (though these factors may exacerbate or in certain circumstances be used as a vehicle to reinforce individual views) It seems that some men have limited empathy for their victims and perceive women and girls particularly as worthless especially in relation to their sexual rights. 

 

Sadly statistics represent only the recorded and reported crime that Police are investigating or have successfully prosecuted. This may not be representative of the entire current picture of offending.

[Guest MattP]

15 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Sarah Champion forced out for saying what everybody knows to be true.

 

Fvcking political correctness gone mad.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40952224

Absolutely terrible, what does this say about the sort of debate they will have in the Labour party going forward on this if someone is sacked for telling the truth?

 

I have my doubts though about the reasons, I read some of the hounding on Twitter and most of the mob going for her seemed to actually be more concerned that she had the gall to write for The Sun rather than the actual tone used. Her biggest crime for me was using the word "girls" - she should have what they actually were - children.

 

14 hours ago, Realist Guy In The Room said:

Being Muslim, Pakistani or whatever has nothing to do with the crime.

 

Exploitation of young girls or boys for sexual gratification has been going on in all cultures and religions all over the world for centuries.

But it does, you simply can't ignore these things because they are uncomfortable, of course all cultures have abused children but we aren't talking about 300 years ago, we are trying to tackle the issue now of Muslim grooming gangs. Just have a look at some of the things the abusers have said, they referred to the victims as white trash, they said this was all "white girls" were good for, reverse the situation and could you imagine anyone saying race or religion had nothing to do with this, you would be laughed at and mocked.

 

I would advise you to watch the press conference from the Chief Constable of Northumbria police, he went further than anyone else and was actually prepared to criticise "communities" -  " there was no political correctness in this investigation and some communities need to look at themselves and decide if they are doing enough" - effectively suggesting many actually know about this but either turn a blind eye or simply aren't bothered.

 

It would have been absurd if we had ignored the fact the Stephen Lawrence killers were white because of cultural sensitivity, it had to be called out for what it was, a racist murder.

 

This isn't just white girls either, they might be the vast majority of victims but they have tried to groom Sikh girls in numerous towns as well, including our own, ask @Dr The Singh   - the only common fact with these gangs is they don't abuse their own, so you can't say it's nothing to do with the religion or more importantly, the culture.

 

One of the reasons I hate the term "Asian" grooming gangs as well, what have Hindu's, Sikhs, the Japanese, Chinese etc done to be lumped in with this?

 

10 hours ago, Captain... said:

The issue of child sexual abuse is not a pleasant one, and whilst there is clearly an element of ethnicity and religion it is by no means exclusive, I don't know the stats and don't want to research them, but there is enough incidents of abuse in clergy and schools, by rock stars, politicians and all kinds of people of influence. The Rotherham scandal was disgusting and the fact that the enquiries showed that the police/politicians refused to investigate because they were scared of being called racist is sickening.

I still find it hard to get my head around Rotherham, 1,400 girls, about 10% of the child population was being passed around a sex gang to be raped and when the parents asked the police to do something about it they were threatened to be arrested themselves, what an appalling mess - how did a country like ours ever get into a situation where it became virtuous to a section of society to protect a religion from criticism over the welfare of young children being beaten, drugged, tortured and raped. The worst thing is this still is still going on and everybody seems to know it, if people can't discuss the problem honestly they you'll never get around to stopping it.

[Captain...]

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

The worst thing is this still is still going on and everybody seems to know it, if people can't discuss the problem honestly they you'll never get around to stopping it.

She did seem to be discussing it honestly and getting things done, it is a shame she undermined it all with shock tactics and inflammatory headlines. She should have targeted and attacked the political elite with her article, not an ethnic group.

[Guest MattP]

23 minutes ago, Captain... said:

She did seem to be discussing it honestly and getting things done, it is a shame she undermined it all with shock tactics and inflammatory headlines. She should have targeted and attacked the political elite with her article, not an ethnic group.

But her intention was to say that Britain has a problem with Pakistani men raping white girls, not to attack the political elite, how do you actually do that without mentioning ethnic groups? I've long gone past thinking the authorities are ever going to get a grip on this anyway, they are totally incapable of doing so. It's going to be up to parents to warn their children of the dangers of it now along with all the other things.

 

The consequences of that for community relations are obviously a disaster, but sadly it's better than letting thousands of children be ferried between flats by taxi drivers all in it together to be plied with drugs, booze, beaten and raped.

[Guest MattP]

Although I will concede some progress clearly has been made by the fact she was actually prepared to write this in a national newspaper, she would have been thrown out of the party, smeared as a racist and told to join the BNP five year ago for even daring to suggest it.

Edited 17 August 2017 by MattP

[The Floyd]

36 minutes ago, Captain... said:

She did seem to be discussing it honestly and getting things done, it is a shame she undermined it all with shock tactics and inflammatory headlines. She should have targeted and attacked the political elite with her article, not an ethnic group.

Why?

[Captain...]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

But her intention was to say that Britain has a problem with Pakistani men raping white girls, not to attack the political elite, how do you actually do that without mentioning ethnic groups? I've long gone past thinking the authorities are ever going to get a grip on this anyway, they are totally incapable of doing so. It's going to be up to parents to warn their children of the dangers of it now along with all the other things.

 

The consequences of that for community relations are obviously a disaster, but sadly it's better than letting thousands of children be ferried between flats by taxi drivers all in it together to be plied with drugs, booze, beaten and raped.

The biggest failing was that the police/politicians were ignoring reports of it happening and let it escalate to such disgusting numbers, the fact that some Pakistani are disgusting paedophiles is not really the issue, we have established that disgusting sexual predators come from all walks of life and backgrounds. The issue is that when this was addressed it was ignored by the authorities and it was allowed to grow to unimaginable numbers. The point of the article should have been to ensure that the police and politicians deal with any hint of this sort of behaviour with extreme measures and not pussy foot around worrying about race relations. Ethnicity shouldn't even come into it, anyone of any ethnicity suspected of such behaviour should be investigated thoroughly.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The biggest failing was that the police/politicians were ignoring reports of it happening and let it escalate to such disgusting numbers, the fact that some Pakistani are disgusting paedophiles is not really the issue, we have established that disgusting sexual predators come from all walks of life and backgrounds. The issue is that when this was addressed it was ignored by the authorities and it was allowed to grow to unimaginable numbers. The point of the article should have been to ensure that the police and politicians deal with any hint of this sort of behaviour with extreme measures and not pussy foot around worrying about race relations. Ethnicity shouldn't even come into it, anyone of any ethnicity suspected of such behaviour should be investigated thoroughly.

I can't believe you still don't think the ethnicity and culture of this is important, it's the whole reason why it happens, still you are ignoring it. I genuinely cannot get into your head as to why anyone would do this. Please have a watch of Newsnight from yesterday, Labout candidate and Muslim Amina Lone talks about why the cultural part of this is so important and how her party have got this so wrong.

 

She added this on Twitter.

 

Quote

I grew up in a Muslim community where these attitudes were common. “White girls are easy” “Nobody cares about them” “They are just slags” “They parents don’t look after them properly” etc were/are still said today. I hear it regularly. Sarah Champion was talking about a particular type of grooming which is carried by men because of their cultural/religious practices. Obvs not all men. She is not a racist but a brave woman speaking out about a politically awkward issue. Labour, bury your heads as much as you like in the black & white purist world you push. The chickens will come home to roost.”

If we have attitudes like this in any other community that lead to crime against another (let alone one as horrific as this) we fall ourselves to do something about it, with this one we do everything we can to avoid it, it's the most baffling thing I think I've seen in British politics.

[Dr The Singh]

So should calling the Charlestone murderer a white supremacist be also condemned?

 

Is this guys cultural background not important???

 

[The Floyd]

25 minutes ago, Captain... said:

The biggest failing was that the police/politicians were ignoring reports of it happening and let it escalate to such disgusting numbers, the fact that some Pakistani are disgusting paedophiles is not really the issue, we have established that disgusting sexual predators come from all walks of life and backgrounds. The issue is that when this was addressed it was ignored by the authorities and it was allowed to grow to unimaginable numbers. The point of the article should have been to ensure that the police and politicians deal with any hint of this sort of behaviour with extreme measures and not pussy foot around worrying about race relations. Ethnicity shouldn't even come into it, anyone of any ethnicity suspected of such behaviour should be investigated thoroughly.

I disagree with you entirely for reasons that Matt has already suggested, but have you even read the article? She's quite clearly critical of politicians' inaction and also noted that the police must become more aware and informed. By choosing to ignore that culture doesn't play a significant role in this, you're deterring others from bringing similar situations to light in the future out of fear of being labelled as a racist, it's counterproductive. 

[Captain...]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can't believe you still don't think the ethnicity and culture of this is important, it's the whole reason why it happens, still you are ignoring it. I genuinely cannot get into your head as to why anyone would do this. Please have a watch of Newsnight from yesterday, Labout candidate and Muslim Amina Lone talks about why the cultural part of this is so important and how her party have got this so wrong.

 

She added this on Twitter.

 

If we have attitudes like this in any other community that lead to crime against another (let alone one as horrific as this) we fall ourselves to do something about it, with this one we do everything we can to avoid it, it's the most baffling thing I think I've seen in British politics.

It's not important if someone is suspected of being a child rapist, then they should be investigated and prosecuted regardless of ethnicity - are you disagreeing with that?

 

The ethnicity aspect is relevant to profiling and identifying high risk areas and where there are areas that are higher risk, such as muslim communities that fit the profile of what happened in Rotherham then there should be greater vigilance and and more proactive measures and she and others are right to highlight that, but that was not the case in Rotherham. It was reported numerous times and the police did nothing that is the great failing of that case, that is the truly shocking aspect.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

It's not important if someone is suspected of being a child rapist, then they should be investigated and prosecuted regardless of ethnicity - are you disagreeing with that?

 

The ethnicity aspect is relevant to profiling and identifying high risk areas and where there are areas that are higher risk, such as muslim communities that fit the profile of what happened in Rotherham then there should be greater vigilance and and more proactive measures and she and others are right to highlight that, but that was not the case in Rotherham. It was reported numerous times and the police did nothing that is the great failing of that case, that is the truly shocking aspect.

It wasn't just the police, the press played their part as well, this from the Guardian was only 6 years ago, even after some of it had already come out.

 

 

[Captain...]

3 minutes ago, The Floyd said:

I disagree with you entirely for reasons that Matt has already suggested, but have you even read the article? She's quite clearly critical of politicians' inaction and also noted that the police must become more aware and informed. By choosing to ignore that culture doesn't play a significant role in this, you're deterring others from bringing similar situations to light in the future out of fear of being labelled as a racist, it's counterproductive. 

You disagree with me, because I don't express the same view in exactly the same way.

 

Have you even read my posts? My issue with the article was the focus on the ethnicity aspect, the click bait headlines, and the inflammatory opening line, all of that is very poor from the equalities minister. Singling out one ethnic group when it wasn't even a single ethnic group in the gang is stupid.

 

The points she made in the rest of the article were fair and valid and I have said she should be applauded for the actions she has taken, but the reason for targetting the "political elite" (I probably should have said establishment) is because they aren't doing enough. They were responsible for society failing those girls. The fact they were majority Pakistani group is irrelevant, sadly child sexual abuse exists in our world, and I don't know what we can do to change that. What we can control as a society is how we react to these incidents being reported and we failed those girls massively. That is what mustn't happen again, regardless of the ethnicity of the abusers all reports of sexual abuse must be taken seriously and acted upon.

[Captain...]

24 minutes ago, Dr The Singh said:

So should calling the Charlestone murderer a white supremacist be also condemned?

 

Is this guys cultural background not important???

 

His cultural background was a white middle class right wing fundamentalist Christian, but we don't label all white right wing middle class christian males as Nazis, we don't imply that all white right wing middle class christian males are murderers by proxy. White Supremacists are scum, as are ISIS, Terrorists, Murderers and Paedophiles.

[Nick]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

I can't believe you still don't think the ethnicity and culture of this is important, it's the whole reason why it happens, still you are ignoring it. I genuinely cannot get into your head as to why anyone would do this.

Ethnicity and culture may be vehicles for this behaviour but its arguably not the cause. There are many grooming and CSE perpetrators from all backgrounds and the common denominator is gender based and related to the construction of masculinity, a complete lack of empathy and disregard for the worth of young women and children inclusive of their sexual rights. This occurs in all ethnicities and backgrounds and nobody is saying that when it does so in Pakistani cultures this isn't a problem - its just perhaps not fair that due contemporary findings which get huge media attention that this gets labelled as soley a Pakistani or Muslim problem. Its a problem with men, masculinity and gender across all cultures.

 

I'm in no way attempting to deny the patterns which have been uncovered over the past ten years that relate to Pakistani and Muslim sexual offenders and believe they need to be addressed through research, study and preventative campaigns targeted within communities. As somebody who has spent years working with Social Care Practitioners, Sex Offenders and helping services and individual professionals react to the lessons to be learnt from serious case reviews, I am not ready to label this problem as a Pakistani or Muslim trait - I am however prepared to acknowledge that cultures and religions may be used as a vehicle to carry, justify and bring together groups of men in order to perpetrate such types of offending. And that can of course range from Catholicism, Boy Scouts Clubs, Swimming Teachers and boarding school staff to Muslim and Pakistani males.

 

But its not all Catholics. Its not all Swimming Teachers. Its not all Boy Scouts Groups. It's not all boarding school staff and its certainly not all Muslim and Pakistani men.

 

So lets call it what it is - a problem with men.

 

A problem with the construction of masculinity (culturally reinforced or otherwise)

 

A problem with how some men see women and children.

 

A problem with empathy and a void of care for the sexual rights of children and young women.

 

And lets treat the issue at source as gender specific - not just label, demonise, sling mud and create moral panics directed at any particular demographic.

 

[Innovindil]

4 minutes ago, Captain... said:

His cultural background was a white middle class right wing fundamentalist Christian, but we don't label all white right wing middle class christian males as Nazis, we don't imply that all white right wing middle class christian males are murderers by proxy. White Supremacists are scum, as are ISIS, Terrorists, Murderers and Paedophiles.

Nobody is saying all asians are pedos if that's what you are getting at. People are saying there are fundamental problems within certain communities that need addressing. Thousands of children do not get abused within a community without it being common knowledge I'd guess. How many were arrested over Rotherham? A few dozen? I dare say there were more than that involved, either directly or indirectly turning a blind eye. 

 

Yes, the police failed miserably, but the community itself also failed these children. 

[Guest MattP]

The issue now here is that the opposition and potentially the next Government quite simply will not have a debate about this issue, just bringing up that a certain section of a community is abusing another based on cultural perceptions would now mean you can't serve in that government, if a Labour shadow minister can't talk about this, how on earth can a member of the public who is the one being abused approach them about it.

 

Fair play to all the Tories, Lib Dem, SNP and Labour MP's who have called it out for what it is though. That does offer some hope.

 

As an aside, 91 people have now resigned from the shadow cabinet during the reign of JC, imagine if any other company with around 250 employees had seen 91 resignations within two years of a boss taking over, you wouldn't go near it yet we are possibly going to elect that boss as the Prime Minister.