Guest Kopfkino Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 Personally support the interim customs union that the government has proposed today(so long as there is some room for us to start negotiating trade relationships across the globe). Not sure on this bizarre idea of no customs borders between the UK and the EU, relying on each other to check outside goods and what seems a bit of an administrative mess. I hope that stays as an idea on paper.
Captain... Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 28 minutes ago, KingGTF said: That's not what's happened. The size of the labour pool is still growing, net migration isn't now negative, it's lower but not negative. The total number of people in employment (16-24 and seasonally adjusted, as they're normally headline figures) before the referendum was 30527000, it is now 308150000. Similarly, that population has increased from 41003000 to 41125000. The PMI survey for June showed the strongest growth in job creation since April 2016 in London (don't know the figures for elsewhere) and the CIPD survey showed a rise in firms expecting to add to their workforce in the next 3 months. We will see what the latest unemployment figures are tomorrow I didn't word it very well, I know that we still have a positive net migration, but it has slowed, companies aim to grow each year, that needs to be fueled by population growth, growth and expansion is based on forecasts and trends. Any growth now will not have taken into account the significant drop off in migration. If that trend continues we will soon hit capacity and companies will not be able to grow, but probably will still try and end up over reaching and getting into difficulties. I probably should have said a shortening of the expected labour market. It is difficult to make my point without all figures to hand and I don't have the time to put it all together, unless I want to join the unemployed, but this record unemployment is a false figure and not the guaranteed sign of economic strength and growth that it is being paraded around as, if we still have this level of employment in 6-12 months time then fair enough, but the current snapshot of employment has been influenced by a lot of negative external factors and doesn't make me think this government have a clue what they are doing.
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 Just now, Captain... said: I didn't word it very well, I know that we still have a positive net migration, but it has slowed, companies aim to grow each year, that needs to be fueled by population growth, growth and expansion is based on forecasts and trends. Any growth now will not have taken into account the significant drop off in migration. If that trend continues we will soon hit capacity and companies will not be able to grow, Or they'll have to increase productivity.
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 45 minutes ago, KingGTF said: Personally support the interim customs union that the government has proposed today(so long as there is some room for us to start negotiating trade relationships across the globe). Not sure on this bizarre idea of no customs borders between the UK and the EU, relying on each other to check outside goods and what seems a bit of an administrative mess. I hope that stays as an idea on paper. Lots of people supported giving £350m to the NHS each week too, it's easy to make these declarations when you know it's a fantasy which is entirely out of your hands. No way will they agree to that, or rather no way will they consider it until we pull our fingers out on the rights of EU citizens and our legacy payments. Don't take my word for it, take the word of someone who actually does have a considerable say in this:
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 1 minute ago, Carl the Llama said: Lots of people supported giving £350m to the NHS each week too, it's easy to make these declarations when you know it's a fantasy which is entirely out of your hands. No way will they agree to that, or rather no way will they consider it until we pull our fingers out on the rights of EU citizens and our legacy payments. Don't take my word for it, take the word of someone who actually does have a considerable say in this: It works both ways, if they make it awkward for us they're making it awkward for them selves as well. Why would they want to do that?
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: It works both ways, if they make it awkward for us they're making it awkward for them selves as well. Why would they want to do that? Because if they make it silky smooth more countries will follow.
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 Just now, Carl the Llama said: Because if they make it silky smooth more countries will follow. I think you'll find that the EU is a fully democratic, liberal utopia and massive economic success story. Why would anyone else want to leave?
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 4 minutes ago, Webbo said: I think you'll find that the EU is a fully democratic, liberal utopia and massive economic success story. Why would anyone else want to leave? I don't know either, I imagine if they did it would be because their citizens are all racist xenophobes. 1
Innovindil Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 39 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Because if they make it silky smooth more countries will follow. So why not let them? If you let all of those who want to leave, leave, surely you will be left with a fully committed, ever closer EU. If you're having to use economic threats as a tool to keep countries on board, you probably aren't fit for purpose in the first place.
bovril Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 4 minutes ago, Innovindil said: So why not let them? If you let all of those who want to leave, leave, surely you will be left with a fully committed, ever closer EU. If you're having to use economic threats as a tool to keep countries on board, you probably aren't fit for purpose in the first place. If the people of Europe want to leave the EU, they are free to vote for parties in their country that advocate leaving. There are such parties in every country.
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 1 minute ago, bovril said: If the people of Europe want to leave the EU, they are free to vote for parties in their country that advocate leaving. There are such parties in every country. So why spite us?
bovril Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: So why spite us? 1966, Russian linesman. 1 1
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 1 minute ago, Innovindil said: So why not let them? If you let all of those who want to leave, leave, surely you will be left with a fully committed, ever closer EU. If you're having to use economic threats as a tool to keep countries on board, you probably aren't fit for purpose in the first place. You're not going to get far in discussions on this if you refer to attempts to seek assurances for their citizens "threats". As Webbo rightly said it works both ways, we're the ones who started negotiations by being awkward about citizens rights and the Brexit bill so it's a bit disingenuous to have a go at them for standing their ground and not being bullied.
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 2 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: You're not going to get far in discussions on this if you refer to attempts to seek assurances for their citizens "threats". As Webbo rightly said it works both ways, we're the ones who started negotiations by being awkward about citizens rights and the Brexit bill so it's a bit disingenuous to have a go at them for standing their ground and not being bullied. We're not being awkward though are we?
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 Just now, Webbo said: We're not being awkward though are we? From what I last heard we were anyway. I'm going off the impression that those preliminary issues haven't been sorted out already... have I missed something?
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 Just now, Carl the Llama said: From what I last heard we were anyway. In what way?
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 11 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: You're not going to get far in discussions on this if you refer to attempts to seek assurances for their citizens "threats". As Webbo rightly said it works both ways, we're the ones who started negotiations by being awkward about citizens rights and the Brexit bill so it's a bit disingenuous to have a go at them for standing their ground and not being bullied.
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 5 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: As I understand it, they want the ECJ to determine the rights of their citizens in this country and are demanding rights that don't exist for British citizens. I seem to recall around a year ago when Gina Miller brought her case it was considered ludicrous and offensive to say our judges were in any way bias and unjust, so why aren't they good enough to rule over the rights of EU citizens? Which other country in the world would allow foreign judges to decide their rights/laws? They're not really interested in a deal, they just want to drag this out and hope we change our minds.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 23 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: You're not going to get far in discussions on this if you refer to attempts to seek assurances for their citizens "threats". As Webbo rightly said it works both ways, we're the ones who started negotiations by being awkward about citizens rights and the Brexit bill so it's a bit disingenuous to have a go at them for standing their ground and not being bullied. http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/brussels-eu-uk-already-started-soften-positions-brexit-negotiations/ About 50% of stuff on the citizens rights was agreed upon within 3 days and the major sticking point is with the ECJ being the arbiter of rights. The Germans have said they are open to a a UK-EU panel to decide which David Davis has agreed with and proposed a mutually agreed chairman flanked by one person from each side. The Brexit bill the government has admitted it has obligations, intimating it is prepared to agree to a financial settlement, though maybe not an exact figure. A policy paper may well suffice to get things rolling.
Carl the Llama Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 32 minutes ago, KingGTF said: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/brussels-eu-uk-already-started-soften-positions-brexit-negotiations/ About 50% of stuff on the citizens rights was agreed upon within 3 days and the major sticking point is with the ECJ being the arbiter of rights. The Germans have said they are open to a a UK-EU panel to decide which David Davis has agreed with and proposed a mutually agreed chairman flanked by one person from each side. The Brexit bill the government has admitted it has obligations, intimating it is prepared to agree to a financial settlement, though maybe not an exact figure. A policy paper may well suffice to get things rolling. Right, but it's still not completely sorted and wasn't that the prerequisite to going any deeper?
Guest Kopfkino Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 12 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: Right, but it's still not completely sorted and wasn't that the prerequisite to going any deeper? And the EU's timetable suggested late autumn for the next stage. We've had two rounds of talks.
foxinexile Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 2 hours ago, Webbo said: So why spite us? How are the 27 other EU Member States spiting us?
Webbo Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 1 minute ago, foxinexile said: How are the 27 other EU Member States spiting us? Not necessarily the 27 states, I doubt there is unanimity on this. If they are going to reject a deal that's in their favour as well, what else can you describe it as but spite?
Strokes Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 4 hours ago, KingGTF said: Personally support the interim customs union that the government has proposed today(so long as there is some room for us to start negotiating trade relationships across the globe). Not sure on this bizarre idea of no customs borders between the UK and the EU, relying on each other to check outside goods and what seems a bit of an administrative mess. I hope that stays as an idea on paper. The EU won't allow this, this is either a ploy by Davis to push the EU openly into a place whereby they reject us. Making it seem like hard brexit is there fault and they won't negotiate. Or it's the first steps towards a series of climb downs, for the softest of brexits that will be brexit in name only.
Strokes Posted 15 August 2017 Posted 15 August 2017 3 hours ago, Carl the Llama said: Lots of people supported giving £350m to the NHS each week too, it's easy to make these declarations when you know it's a fantasy which is entirely out of your hands. No way will they agree to that, or rather no way will they consider it until we pull our fingers out on the rights of EU citizens and our legacy payments. Don't take my word for it, take the word of someone who actually does have a considerable say in this: Guy demanding the ramsom money again I see, I really hope we do go out on WTO terms, I hope we stop negotiating with this racket. 1
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