Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Again these are hardly conclusive documents. We discussed the US Data its very woolly, we do not know the full ins and outs of each state laws, taxes etc. We have a situation in France where many rich French people moved to London, France has now also removed its 75% tax rate because it raised less money and was pointless, surely if this was a resounding money spinner funding the nation to become marvellous they would have kept it?. I seem to remember the French though Socialist Hollande was a bit shit and voted him out.

 

The French PM seems to contradict all of this but what does he know?!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/france-s-wealth-tax-has-driven-10-000-people-abroad-pm-says

 

 

I am pretty certain the reality is people would leave Britain under an OLD Labour government. Its not just the taxes its their total anti business socialist rhetoric that is the problem, they would be an unmitigated disaster for everyone who owns anything or runs anything. The only winners would be those with absolutely nothing but I suppose Socialists will see that as a resounding success. People are voting for them based on lack or understanding of what they will do and on baseless lies on how they will fund anything, its a pie in the sky figures with no base and lies about paying and buying things they can not ever pay. People are falling for it sadly.

 

If we ever end up with this lot in charge people will regret it big style when jobs start going, things start being requisitioned. We have never ever had lunatics like this with a possibility of running the country. Corbyn as a clown but John McDonnell is horrific, he his horrible,, psychopathic, spiteful and the biggest incompetent joker ever to hold such a powerful position. He had another complete car crash interview where he went on about spending £250 billion with absolutely no evidence he could ever pay this off, he wants things to be nationalised by paying what parliament decides, no wonder the pound would nosedive if they got in its an absolute terrifying possibility, there would be no crash quite like it.

Edited 20 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

I wonder what consequences this will have for European politics - and Brexit, in particular? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-42047532

 

"Talks on forming a coalition government in Germany have collapsed, leaving Angela Merkel facing her biggest challenge in 12 years as chancellor.

The free-market liberal FDP pulled out after four weeks of talks with Mrs Merkel's CDU/CSU bloc and the Greens.

FDP leader Christian Lindner said there was "no basis of trust" between them.

What happens next is unclear, but Mrs Merkel is due to meet President Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who has the power to call snap elections".

 

Apparently the SDP (Social Democrats/Labour), who came second in the elections, have ruled themselves out of any coalition. The FDP are obviously a non-starter, now - as are AfD (Far Right), for obvious reasons.

 

Sounds like there could be new elections in Germany, possibly with Merkel standing down....

If so, which party/parties are likely to benefit from that?

 

Anyone with any expertise on German politics have any views? Political instability in Germany doesn't seem a good thing on the face of it....

Delighted to see a post like this, I've just flicked through the last few pages after I've been away and I must have scanned through 60% of it feeling depressed, the constant Guardian links and repetitive desire to justify insane economy policy on the basis of "at least it not the Tories" have got more boring than even but I'm surprised there hasn't been some more debate on the German situation on here or more coverage in the news, it's an absolutely huge story with big ramifications for everybody. I thought the media were jumping the gun a bit a few months back when declaring Merkel the Queen of Europe and the new leader of the free World.

 

How does it effect Brexit? It's hard to say, on one hand Merkel seemed quite tolerent of May but not of the Conservative party as a whole and she seems prepared to try and sort things out now rather than see us risk sending over Corbyn to talk to them, on the other hand things like this don't help the European Union and the more problems the bloc has the more chance they'll want to keep everything else as normal and as stable as possible. Surely Martin Schultz is going to come under some pretty severe pressure here to come back to the table? If that happens it's not something we should see as a positive, although I wouldn't see what has changed from a month or so ago that the Grand Coalition no longer had a mandate to govern. Volker Wissing said the talks had been absolutely shambolic, so much for German efficiency and stability!

 

As with anything at the minute it's hard to predict, I'm not fully up to speed on this story at all but the Greens also appear to be holding up some of the talks on social/asylum issues although they seem to want to keep the negotiations ongoing, I'm not sure how a party like the CDU and the FDP can actually manage to negotiate anything with a party like that anyway if they are similar to the Green party over here.

 

I don't see any change to the situation either, unless there is significant movement in the polls Germany could be facing some serious political stalemate for the forseabale future.

 

On a personal level I'm delighted Merkel has been punished for her migrant policy that seeked to change a countries' demographic so quickly but the Alternative for Deutchland is a seriously tainted political party and not something that should be entertained long term by the electorate, they are a tool to force the mainsream to change policy rather than go into any sort of government themselves, the only way out of it could be a return to the Grand Coalition under new leaders, even if that does lead to the far right becoming the main opposition in parliament.

 

It's certainly a great argument against PR when you see stuff like this.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

If we ever end up with this lot in charge people will regret it big style when jobs start going, things start being requisitioned. We have never ever had lunatics like this with a possibility of running the country. Corbyn as a clown but John McDonnell is horrific, he his horrible,, psychopathic, spiteful and the biggest incompetent joker ever to hold such a powerful position. He had another complete car crash interview where he went on about spending £250 billion with absolutely no evidence he could ever pay this off, he wants things to be nationalised by paying what parliament decides, no wonder the pound would nosedive if they got in its an absolute terrifying possibility, there would be no crash quite like it.

His Marr interview yesterday was as weird as it gets, Marr wanted just one figure from him and he couldn't do it aside from just throw out that 250 billion of investement, he genuinely seems to think the government could still borrow and raise gilts at 1.3% even after he has walked through number eleven, it's as if no one has told him investors and businesses out there are not going to see his economic plans in the same light as he does.

 

There is no way he can seriously believe that parliament can just decide what the price of nationalisation compensation is, he can't, he is clearly an intelligent man despite how malevolent he is. If they are near to power when the next election is called just take precautions, get as much of your pension out and transfer your house ownership to your children (providing you trust them of course) and get at little of your assets as you can relying on competent finances from the state.

[Alf Bentley]

17 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

As with anything at the minute it's hard to predict, I'm not fully up to speed on this story at all but the Greens also appear to be holding up some of the talks on social/asylum issues although they seem to want to keep the negotiations ongoing, I'm not sure how a party like the CDU and the FDP can actually manage to negotiate anything with a party like that anyway if they are similar to the Green party over here.

 

I don't see any change to the situation either, unless there is significant movement in the polls Germany could be facing some serious political stalemate for the forseabale future.

 

The BBC News correspondent in Germany reckoned that so far most people over there seem to be blaming the FDP, not Merkel, for the breakdown in the coalition talks.

Apparently there's speculation that, if further elections are held and she stays as CDU leader, she could get a better election result as people look for stability.

 

Under their constitution, it seems to be up to the German President as to whether new elections are necessary. Most political powers are with Merkel as Chancellor but this one is up to the President, it seems - and Merkel is seeing him now.

 

The SPD probably feel, like the FDP before them (and the Lib Dems over here), that they ended up getting punished by the electorate for their role or lack of influence as junior coalition partners, so might not be keen on playing that role again....

 

 

17 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's certainly a great argument against PR when you see stuff like this.

 

There is no perfect electoral system - and the bartering and malfunctions involved in forming coalitions are always an argument against PR.

However, Germany seems to have enjoyed great political stability and prosperity under that system for many decades until now.

 

I'm not sure the May Govt has been a great advert for first-past-the-post either. Not only because we ended up with the DUP naming its financial price for supporting a divided, chaotic govt, but also because that govt has been seeking to impose a hard-line Brexit that certainly wouldn't have been supported by even 52% of the electorate - and has been actively trying to prevent parliament from "taking back control" or even having a meaningful vote on the biggest political issue for decades. 

[Alf Bentley]

German President calls on parties to try again with coalition talks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/20/angela-merkel-meets-german-president-as-coalition-talks-fail

 

"The German president, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, has called on German political leaders to reconsider their positions the day after the collapse of coalition talks pushed the country into its worst political crisis in decades. Coming out of talks with the chancellor, Angela Merkel, Steinmeier said he would meet all the party leaders this week. He urged a rethink that could allow them to form a government and sought to avoid a minority government under Merkel or fresh elections".

 

Another reason why a CDU-SPD grand coalition might not be a good idea....

"A repeat of the grand coalition between the two largest parties would also result in the far-right Alternative für Deutschland, the third largest party, becoming the official opposition and gain enhanced status in the Bundestag".

 

 

[Fox Ulike]

46 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Again these are hardly conclusive documents. We discussed the US Data its very woolly, we do not know the full ins and outs of each state laws, taxes etc. We have a situation in France where many rich French people moved to London, France has now also removed its 75% tax rate because it raised less money and was pointless, surely if this was a resounding money spinner funding the nation to become marvellous they would have kept it?. I seem to remember the French though Socialist Hollande was a bit shit and voted him out.

 

The French PM seems to contradict all of this but what does he know?!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/france-s-wealth-tax-has-driven-10-000-people-abroad-pm-says

 

 

I am pretty certain the reality is people would leave Britain under an OLD Labour government. Its not just the taxes its their total anti business socialist rhetoric that is the problem, they would be an unmitigated disaster for everyone who owns anything or runs anything. The only winners would be those with absolutely nothing but I suppose Socialists will see that as a resounding success. People are voting for them based on lack or understanding of what they will do and on baseless lies on how they will fund anything, its a pie in the sky figures with no base and lies about paying and buying things they can not ever pay. People are falling for it sadly.

 

If we ever end up with this lot in charge people will regret it big style when jobs start going, things start being requisitioned. We have never ever had lunatics like this with a possibility of running the country. Corbyn as a clown but John McDonnell is horrific, he his horrible,, psychopathic, spiteful and the biggest incompetent joker ever to hold such a powerful position. He had another complete car crash interview where he went on about spending £250 billion with absolutely no evidence he could ever pay this off, he wants things to be nationalised by paying what parliament decides, no wonder the pound would nosedive if they got in its an absolute terrifying possibility, there would be no crash quite like it.

It would be interesting to know how many of them have actually left France, and how many have simply claimed residence in an off-shore tax haven, but spend the majority of their time in France?

 

Raising taxes won’t work unless you close the loopholes.

[leicsmac]

59 minutes ago, MattP said:

It's certainly a great argument against PR when you see stuff like this.

 

I'm with Alf on this one, I'd rather have PR and the occasional uncertainty that follows over a system that means a great deal of people are essentially disenfranchised.

Edited 20 November 2017 by leicsmac

[leicsmac]

On a different note, it's excellent to see the UK at the forefront of this. It's not much as the really important players aren't on board yet, but setting an example to follow is the thing:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-42014244

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Again these are hardly conclusive documents. We discussed the US Data its very woolly, we do not know the full ins and outs of each state laws, taxes etc. We have a situation in France where many rich French people moved to London, France has now also removed its 75% tax rate because it raised less money and was pointless, surely if this was a resounding money spinner funding the nation to become marvellous they would have kept it?. I seem to remember the French though Socialist Hollande was a bit shit and voted him out.

 

The French PM seems to contradict all of this but what does he know?!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-28/france-s-wealth-tax-has-driven-10-000-people-abroad-pm-says

 

 

I am pretty certain the reality is people would leave Britain under an OLD Labour government. Its not just the taxes its their total anti business socialist rhetoric that is the problem, they would be an unmitigated disaster for everyone who owns anything or runs anything. The only winners would be those with absolutely nothing but I suppose Socialists will see that as a resounding success. People are voting for them based on lack or understanding of what they will do and on baseless lies on how they will fund anything, its a pie in the sky figures with no base and lies about paying and buying things they can not ever pay. People are falling for it sadly.

 

If we ever end up with this lot in charge people will regret it big style when jobs start going, things start being requisitioned. We have never ever had lunatics like this with a possibility of running the country. Corbyn as a clown but John McDonnell is horrific, he his horrible,, psychopathic, spiteful and the biggest incompetent joker ever to hold such a powerful position. He had another complete car crash interview where he went on about spending £250 billion with absolutely no evidence he could ever pay this off, he wants things to be nationalised by paying what parliament decides, no wonder the pound would nosedive if they got in its an absolute terrifying possibility, there would be no crash quite like it.

You've been presented with properly carried out studies with clear methodologies and conclusions and you describe them as "woolly" and then dismiss them in favour of speculation.

 

There's no helping you. Keep voting Tory. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

27 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

It would be interesting to know how many of them have actually left France, and how many have simply claimed residence in an off-shore tax haven, but spend the majority of their time in France?

 

Raising taxes won’t work unless you close the loopholes.

Raising taxes wont work unless every developed western country agrees to set their laws and tax rates the same. Which will never happen.

 

Until countries are harmonised there will always be places money can be moved easily to avoid higher rates. Companies like Dell, Microsoft, Apple, Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay will all shift their profits to somewhere where its cheaper to pay, that's why in some ways it is better to be that cheap place! For Europe that is Luxembourg, and who was responsible for that? Our good Euro friend Junker who set up so tax sweet deals for big multinationals. One thing Europe should have is a Eurozone tax rate, Tax should be paid in the country of consumption so if Starbucks makes 10 billion profit in the UK is should be tax on £10billion profits in the UK, no shift in to Ireland or wherever and claim that it was to cover the cost of putting up some new signs!

 

There has to be an international clamp down on this is you want it to be a success, Britain standing on its own with a bunch of raving mad fiscally incompetent socialists taxing everything that moves, will not make an ounce of difference. All it will do is destroy our economy.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Raising taxes wont work unless every developed western country agrees to set their laws and tax rates the same. Which will never happen.

 

Until countries are harmonised there will always be places money can be moved easily to avoid higher rates. Companies like Dell, Microsoft, Apple, Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay will all shift their profits to somewhere where its cheaper to pay, that's why in some ways it is better to be that cheap place! For Europe that is Luxembourg, and who was responsible for that? Our good Euro friend Junker who set up so tax sweet deals for big multinationals. One thing Europe should have is a Eurozone tax rate, Tax should be paid in the country of consumption so if Starbucks makes 10 billion profit in the UK is should be tax on £10billion profits in the UK, no shift in to Ireland or wherever and claim that it was to cover the cost of putting up some new signs!

 

There has to be an international clamp down on this is you want it to be a success, Britain standing on its own with a bunch of raving mad fiscally incompetent socialists taxing everything that moves, will not make an ounce of difference. All it will do is destroy our economy.

I actually agree with most of this. Due to greedy humans being greedy humans, unless a tax rate is global that greed is always going to mean those who have the dough are going to look to stash it where it's looked for least - so a global solution is the only solution.

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Delighted to see a post like this, I've just flicked through the last few pages after I've been away and I must have scanned through 60% of it feeling depressed, the constant Guardian links and repetitive desire to justify insane economy policy on the basis of "at least it not the Tories" have got more boring than even but I'm surprised there hasn't been some more debate on the German situation on here or more coverage in the news, it's an absolutely huge story with big ramifications for everybody. I thought the media were jumping the gun a bit a few months back when declaring Merkel the Queen of Europe and the new leader of the free World.

 

How does it effect Brexit? It's hard to say, on one hand Merkel seemed quite tolerent of May but not of the Conservative party as a whole and she seems prepared to try and sort things out now rather than see us risk sending over Corbyn to talk to them, on the other hand things like this don't help the European Union and the more problems the bloc has the more chance they'll want to keep everything else as normal and as stable as possible. Surely Martin Schultz is going to come under some pretty severe pressure here to come back to the table? If that happens it's not something we should see as a positive, although I wouldn't see what has changed from a month or so ago that the Grand Coalition no longer had a mandate to govern. Volker Wissing said the talks had been absolutely shambolic, so much for German efficiency and stability!

 

As with anything at the minute it's hard to predict, I'm not fully up to speed on this story at all but the Greens also appear to be holding up some of the talks on social/asylum issues although they seem to want to keep the negotiations ongoing, I'm not sure how a party like the CDU and the FDP can actually manage to negotiate anything with a party like that anyway if they are similar to the Green party over here.

 

I don't see any change to the situation either, unless there is significant movement in the polls Germany could be facing some serious political stalemate for the forseabale future.

 

On a personal level I'm delighted Merkel has been punished for her migrant policy that seeked to change a countries' demographic so quickly but the Alternative for Deutchland is a seriously tainted political party and not something that should be entertained long term by the electorate, they are a tool to force the mainsream to change policy rather than go into any sort of government themselves, the only way out of it could be a return to the Grand Coalition under new leaders, even if that does lead to the far right becoming the main opposition in parliament.

 

It's certainly a great argument against PR when you see stuff like this.

Give me a proper discussion about the quality of actual UK policy over some housewives gossip about German politicians any day of the week. Couldn't care less.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

You've been presented with properly carried out studies with clear methodologies and conclusions and you describe them as "woolly" and then dismiss them in favour of speculation.

 

There's no helping you. Keep voting Tory. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

They are Woolly. There is nothing conclusive there its a study one a specific demographic in the same country. You have been presented with the PM of France saying that rich people left France under a socialist government and high taxes let you chose to ignore it.

 

Keep the RED FLAG flying high. I hope that you have nothing to lose, and when you do lose it under a Corbyn government (if god forbid this nation is ever thick enough to vote for these absolute cretins) I hope you don't moan about it.

 

 

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Rogstanley said:

Give me a proper discussion about the quality of actual UK policy over some housewives gossip about German politicians any day of the week. Couldn't care less.

TBH economics bores the hell out of me (UK or otherwise) so I'm rather glad there's some other stuff being put up here rather than the endless circular discussion of late.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I actually agree with most of this. Due to greedy humans being greedy humans, unless a tax rate is global that greed is always going to mean those who have the dough are going to look to stash it where it's looked for least - so a global solution is the only solution.

We are a global economy now, the world is small. If you have the means to move or move your money you will. The UK can close all the loopholes it likes but doing that alone will only cause 5 times the damage that Brexit could. The irony that those against Brexit are happy to let a bunch of Socialists have free reign on the economy! I can be certain which will do more damage long term without a doubt!

 

I suppose globally the question is do people want to pay more tax for better/more services in their countries?

Edited 20 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[fuchsntf]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

German President calls on parties to try again with coalition talks: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/20/angela-merkel-meets-german-president-as-coalition-talks-fail

 

"The German president, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, has called on German political leaders to reconsider their positions the day after the collapse of coalition talks pushed the country into its worst political crisis in decades. Coming out of talks with the chancellor, Angela Merkel, Steinmeier said he would meet all the party leaders this week. He urged a rethink that could allow them to form a government and sought to avoid a minority government under Merkel or fresh elections".

 

Another reason why a CDU-SPD grand coalition might not be a good idea....

"A repeat of the grand coalition between the two largest parties would also result in the far-right Alternative für Deutschland, the third largest party, becoming the official opposition and gain enhanced status in the Bundestag".

 

 

German politics is far from a crisis...There wont be any parts of the society, that will collapse or suffer because of

the electorates voting and parties wont implode. Its not bad for democracy , even with an AfD party rustling some papers,

and some big players individually and party wise have had a big slap on their ass.Like any country its a test to see

If the P.parties listen and react to the variant worries and complaint from their electorate.

 

Through all the european countries elections, over the last few years, Various TV-debates, street questions,

general electore concerns, foremost on the peoples minds, is without doubt immigration control and the organisation

of how refugees should be managed. Its a question now if the politicians who have been given the nod to lead their

countries, that they take the situation more seriously, work with all european neighbouring countries, and start to manage,

and organise the situation that their peoples see their concerns and they as an electorate are being listened to.

And not ignore it hoping, it will somehow work itself out...Racism in the modern European societies, is not any real problem,

though there exist large minorities who will use any poor dis organised government, to further their ignorant beliefs.

But if the governments ignore the issue, Racism will raise its ugly head.

Schooling, services, housing developing local infrastructure, though obvious, is just not being seen to be happening.

Too much being left to charities, and volunteers.Words from govt officials, dont get it done.

[Alf Bentley]

9 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Give me a proper discussion about the quality of actual UK policy over some housewives gossip about German politicians any day of the week. Couldn't care less.

 

[Guest MattP]

55 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

The BBC News correspondent in Germany reckoned that so far most people over there seem to be blaming the FDP, not Merkel, for the breakdown in the coalition talks.

Apparently there's speculation that, if further elections are held and she stays as CDU leader, she could get a better election result as people look for stability.

 

Under their constitution, it seems to be up to the German President as to whether new elections are necessary. Most political powers are with Merkel as Chancellor but this one is up to the President, it seems - and Merkel is seeing him now.

 

The SPD probably feel, like the FDP before them (and the Lib Dems over here), that they ended up getting punished by the electorate for their role or lack of influence as junior coalition partners, so might not be keen on playing that role again....

 

There is no perfect electoral system - and the bartering and malfunctions involved in forming coalitions are always an argument against PR.

However, Germany seems to have enjoyed great political stability and prosperity under that system for many decades until now.

 

I'm not sure the May Govt has been a great advert for first-past-the-post either. Not only because we ended up with the DUP naming its financial price for supporting a divided, chaotic govt, but also because that govt has been seeking to impose a hard-line Brexit that certainly wouldn't have been supported by even 52% of the electorate - and has been actively trying to prevent parliament from "taking back control" or even having a meaningful vote on the biggest political issue for decades. 

As I said I've not read too much on it but certainly will when I've caught up with my work. The grand coalition is the obvious solution, but as I said in my original reply that would lead to the AFD becoming the opposition and I'm not sure that could be tolerable for the vast majority of the German public.

 

Fair point with our system also bringing about chaos after the election but at least with FPTP you do keep extremists out, that was the main point I was trying to raise when I said this was a great argument against it, I still to this day don't know how I would vote in a referendum on FPTP or PR, I have no doubt the latter is fairer but I also love the direct responsibility a MP has to their constituency and seeing individuals get booted - anyway that's for another generation now as we are back to two party politics in this country for the foreseeable future.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

We are a global economy now, the world is small. If you have the means to move or move your money you will. The UK can close all the loopholes it likes but doing that alone will only cause 5 times the damage that Brexit could.

 

I suppose globally the question is do people want to pay more tax for better/more services in their countries?

 

Damn good question. Answer right now...don't know, probably not.

 

IMO there are some issues that should most definitely fall under a world purview economically and socially with zero regard for borders...but that's another debate.

Edited 20 November 2017 by leicsmac

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I actually agree with most of this. Due to greedy humans being greedy humans, unless a tax rate is global that greed is always going to mean those who have the dough are going to look to stash it where it's looked for least - so a global solution is the only solution.

Blimey Mac I've just agreed with a post of yours 100%! This is exactly why the Labour nonsense about closing loopholes is just that, they can't do a single thing and they know it. How people are falling for it I still don't know.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Damn good question. Answer right now...don't know, probably not.

 

IMO there are some issues that should most definitely fall under a world purview economically and socially we zero regard for borders...but that's another debate.

There are many issues that need to be agreed globally, I think that's a good debate to have because to be honest its the only way that we are going to get to a world that looks like what the left want it to, it needs joined up thinking for it to ever work, we don't have that and doing it in a half baked way as an isolated nation will end in disaster. At the moment I am not sure many countries have the appetite for it. I think if some agreement globally can be made about tax rates and the closing of havens etc. we might move forward. Sadly I cant see it anytime soon.

 

I think having someone like Corbyn in charge and McDonnell who pretty much hate the West, hate Capitalism could be quite dangerous for us in so many ways and isolate us on a global scale far beyond what the doom mongers predict on Brexit. So we alienate the US, Israel, Saudi but at least we are friends with Palestine and Iran!  Should be good for jobs!

Edited 20 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Alf Bentley]

11 minutes ago, MattP said:

As I said I've not read too much on it but certainly will when I've caught up with my work. The grand coalition is the obvious solution, but as I said in my original reply that would lead to the AFD becoming the opposition and I'm not sure that could be tolerable for the vast majority of the German public.

 

Fair point with our system also bringing about chaos after the election but at least with FPTP you do keep extremists out, that was the main point I was trying to raise when I said this was a great argument against it, I still to this day don't know how I would vote in a referendum on FPTP or PR, I have no doubt the latter is fairer but I also love the direct responsibility a MP has to their constituency and seeing individuals get booted - anyway that's for another generation now as we are back to two party politics in this country for the foreseeable future.

 

Sorry, didn't notice you'd already mentioned the prospect of AfD becoming the official opposition under a grand coalition. 

 

Re. PR v FPTP: Single Transferable Vote in multi-member constituencies (a bit like we used to have for European elections) offers the best of both worlds to some extent, I reckon.....though there's simply no perfect system.

[leicsmac]

10 minutes ago, MattP said:

Blimey Mac I've just agreed with a post of yours 100%! This is exactly why the Labour nonsense about closing loopholes is just that, they can't do a single thing and they know it. How people are falling for it I still don't know.

Damn, I need to find something about trans/environmental issues in the US so normal service can be resumed!

 

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

There are many issues that need to be agreed globally. At the moment I am not sure many countries have the appetite for it. I think if some agreement globally can be made about tax rates and the closing of havens etc. we might move forward. Sadly I cant see it anytime soon.

 

I think having someone like Corbyn in charge and McDonnell who pretty much hate the West, hate Capitalism could be quite dangerous for us in so many ways and isolate us on a global scale far beyond what the doom mongers predict on Brexit. So we alienate the US, Israel, Saudi but at least we are friends with Palestine and Iran!  Should be good for jobs!

Personally I certainly wouldn't mind us isolating Saudi Arabia with their grotesque human rights record, and keeping a little further away from the US with the current administration in charge wouldn't be a bad idea either. For too long the UK has turned a blind eye to nations doing nasty stuff just because they have something we want or they're "allies" of the UK.

 

But from an economic perspective, there would need to be a global agreement regarding tax...and human nature being what it is I'd agree that a solution isn't likely to present itself soon.

[Rogstanley]

29 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

TBH economics bores the hell out of me (UK or otherwise) so I'm rather glad there's some other stuff being put up here rather than the endless circular discussion of late.

Fair enough. I'm interested in policies and their impact, a lot of that naturally economic in nature. Can't be bothered with the soap opera gossip of politics. I'd struggle to name more than half a dozen MP's, they're totally irrelevant to me, but each to their own!

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Damn, I need to find something about trans/environmental issues in the US so normal service can be resumed!

 

Personally I certainly wouldn't mind us isolating Saudi Arabia with their grotesque human rights record, and keeping a little further away from the US with the current administration in charge wouldn't be a bad idea either. For too long the UK has turned a blind eye to nations doing nasty stuff just because they have something we want or they're "allies" of the UK.

 

But from an economic perspective, there would need to be a global agreement regarding tax...and human nature being what it is I'd agree that a solution isn't likely to present itself soon.

Unfortunately both are massive trade opportunities for the UK, the US in particular owns many of our businesses so to disregard them would be a bad choice IMO economically. Unless we could shut up shop and become totally self sufficient an sustainable we have a big problem if no one wants to trade with us!

 

I would think that Corbyn would quite strongly align with China and Russia both with quite dubious records of their own. Sadly if you want to make money sometimes you have to take money from people you don't agree with otherwise we might be the most moral country on the planet but we would all be poor!

 

To basically isolate ourselves in a global economy would be highly dangerous for the nation.