Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Fair enough. I'm interested in policies and their impact, a lot of that naturally economic in nature. Can't be bothered with the soap opera gossip of politics. I'd struggle to name more than half a dozen MP's, they're totally irrelevant to me, but each to their own!

That's fair. I tend to prefer social and scientific debates, because even though people try to put a price on them sometimes I think they're more important than money.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Unfortunately both are massive trade opportunities for the UK, the US in particular owns many of our businesses so to disregard them would be a bad choice IMO economically. Unless we could shut up shop and become totally self sufficient an sustainable we have a big problem if no one wants to trade with us!

 

I would think that Corbyn would quite strongly align with China and Russia both with quite dubious records of their own. Sadly if you want to make money sometimes you have to take money from people you don't agree with otherwise we might be the most moral country on the planet but we would all be poor!

 

To basically isolate ourselves in a global economy would be highly dangerous for the nation.

Yeah, I get the realpolitik argument and understand why some folks think it's a necessity. I just think that the practice as a whole (whatever nation does it) is often unethical, hypocritical BS that puts a priority on present time monetary gain through economic growth over people lives and the future.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That's fair. I tend to prefer social and scientific debates, because even though people try to put a price on them sometimes I think they're more important than money.

 

 

Yeah, I get the realpolitik argument and understand why some folks think it's a necessity. I just think that the practice as a whole (whatever nation does it) is often unethical, hypocritical BS that puts a priority on present time monetary gain through economic growth over people lives and the future.

Its a difficult one, you could argue that isolating ourselves and not making money from these countries leads to us all being poorer, worse living standards and lower life expectancy. Sadly there is no magic fix.

 

I think everyone whatever their political beliefs want the majority of people to be comfortable. Obviously there are massive divisions on the best way to get to that place.

[Fox Ulike]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Raising taxes wont work unless every developed western country agrees to set their laws and tax rates the same. Which will never happen.

 

Until countries are harmonised there will always be places money can be moved easily to avoid higher rates. Companies like Dell, Microsoft, Apple, Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay will all shift their profits to somewhere where its cheaper to pay, that's why in some ways it is better to be that cheap place! For Europe that is Luxembourg, and who was responsible for that? Our good Euro friend Junker who set up so tax sweet deals for big multinationals. One thing Europe should have is a Eurozone tax rate, Tax should be paid in the country of consumption so if Starbucks makes 10 billion profit in the UK is should be tax on £10billion profits in the UK, no shift in to Ireland or wherever and claim that it was to cover the cost of putting up some new signs!

 

There has to be an international clamp down on this is you want it to be a success, Britain standing on its own with a bunch of raving mad fiscally incompetent socialists taxing everything that moves, will not make an ounce of difference. All it will do is destroy our economy.

I wasn't talking about corporation tax. I was reacting to the link that you posted about individuals leaving France. Nothing to do with Dell, Microsoft or Apple. So all I can really do is repeat my post and hope that you read it this time

 

It would be interesting to know how many of them have actually left France, and how many have simply claimed residence in an off-shore tax haven, but spend the majority of their time in France?

 

Raising taxes won’t work unless you close the loopholes.

[EnderbyFox]

Trying to read an argument between "Fox Ulike" & "Foxin_Mad" 

 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Its a difficult one, you could argue that isolating ourselves and not making money from these countries leads to us all being poorer, worse living standards and lower life expectancy. Sadly there is no magic fix.

 

I think everyone whatever their political beliefs want the majority of people to be comfortable. Obviously there are massive divisions on the best way to get to that place.

Taking that argument further, you might ask exactly why money has to govern living standards and life expectancy in the first place. It's one of those things where people believe it has to be that way, so it IS that way, IMO.

 

But I don't see it changing anytime soon, either - like you said, there's no magic wand. It would take something pretty big for the current system to change fundamentally.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

30 minutes ago, Fox Ulike said:

I wasn't talking about corporation tax. I was reacting to the link that you posted about individuals leaving France. Nothing to do with Dell, Microsoft or Apple. So all I can really do is repeat my post and hope that you read it this time

 

It would be interesting to know how many of them have actually left France, and how many have simply claimed residence in an off-shore tax haven, but spend the majority of their time in France?

 

Raising taxes won’t work unless you close the loopholes.

What I am saying by my example is that we are a global economy with global business and global individuals. Its not just as simple as us closing our tax loopholes and raising taxes here.

 

I have no idea how many left France but the French PM said that 10000 people left his country, I have no idea why he would say that if it wasn't true. I expect the true in and outs of those individuals are not known.

 

The UK closing loopholes here will make no difference on a global scale, all it will do is make the UK a lot poorer as people wont want to do business here or live here if they are punished for being rich and succesful. If we increase tax and then legislate where no other country legislates it makes us a very unfriendly business and rich person economy on a global scale.

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

Raising taxes wont work unless every developed western country agrees to set their laws and tax rates the same. Which will never happen.

 

Until countries are harmonised there will always be places money can be moved easily to avoid higher rates. Companies like Dell, Microsoft, Apple, Starbucks, Amazon, Ebay will all shift their profits to somewhere where its cheaper to pay, that's why in some ways it is better to be that cheap place! For Europe that is Luxembourg, and who was responsible for that? Our good Euro friend Junker who set up so tax sweet deals for big multinationals. One thing Europe should have is a Eurozone tax rate, Tax should be paid in the country of consumption so if Starbucks makes 10 billion profit in the UK is should be tax on £10billion profits in the UK, no shift in to Ireland or wherever and claim that it was to cover the cost of putting up some new signs!

 

There has to be an international clamp down on this is you want it to be a success, Britain standing on its own with a bunch of raving mad fiscally incompetent socialists taxing everything that moves, will not make an ounce of difference. All it will do is destroy our economy.

The massive corporations hardly pay any tax here as it is. Normal companies aren't going to leave because of a small increase in business taxes to still less than it was only 7 years ago when they were all here working away calmly.

1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said:

We are a global economy now, the world is small. If you have the means to move or move your money you will. The UK can close all the loopholes it likes but doing that alone will only cause 5 times the damage that Brexit could. The irony that those against Brexit are happy to let a bunch of Socialists have free reign on the economy! I can be certain which will do more damage long term without a doubt!

 

I suppose globally the question is do people want to pay more tax for better/more services in their countries?

The answer here in the UK should be yes.

 

An interesting report on EU taxation is attached, shows taxes across EU at state level.

 

I've picked out a couple of items also

 

 

taxation_trends_report_2017.pdf

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

What I am saying by my example is that we are a global economy with global business and global individuals. Its not just as simple as us closing our tax loopholes and raising taxes here.

 

I have no idea how many left France but the French PM said that 10000 people left his country, I have no idea why he would say that if it wasn't true. I expect the true in and outs of those individuals are not known.

 

The UK closing loopholes here will make no difference on a global scale, all it will do is make the UK a lot poorer as people wont want to do business here or live here if they are punished for being rich and succesful. If we increase tax and then legislate where no other country legislates it makes us a very unfriendly business and rich person economy on a global scale.

 

 

Germany's corporation tax is 10% higher than ours....

 

(France's is 14% higher)

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

What I am saying by my example is that we are a global economy with global business and global individuals. Its not just as simple as us closing our tax loopholes and raising taxes here.

 

I have no idea how many left France but the French PM said that 10000 people left his country, I have no idea why he would say that if it wasn't true. I expect the true in and outs of those individuals are not known.

 

The UK closing loopholes here will make no difference on a global scale, all it will do is make the UK a lot poorer as people wont want to do business here or live here if they are punished for being rich and succesful. If we increase tax and then legislate where no other country legislates it makes us a very unfriendly business and rich person economy on a global scale.

 

 

The only EU countries with low corporation taxes like ours are the ones with small economies. All the bigger players have tax tastes MUCH higher than ours. Business doesn't leave. It's worth the extra to have access to rich customers and developed infrastructure. Unfortunately the Tories are trying to turn us into a poor neighbour with crap public infrastructure but low tax to try to make up for it.

 

 

Edited 20 November 2017 by Guest

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Germany's corporation tax is 10% higher than ours....

 

(France's is 14% higher)

And do you think France and or Germany are better places than the UK? I certainly don't. Massive issues with integrating immigration in Germany particularly in the South, France has many cities with extremely poor divided neighbourhoods with huge crime issues so whatever they are doing to me is not a success. Its far worse that anything I have seen in the UK and believe me I travel to these countries a lot, I have never ever been approached at cash machines by poor children and threatened in London, I have in Paris.

[Guest]

Just now, Foxin_mad said:

And do you think France and or Germany are better places than the UK? I certainly don't. Massive issues with integrating immigration in Germany particularly in the South, France has many cities with extremely poor divided neighbourhoods with huge crime issues so whatever they are doing to me is not a success. Its far worse that anything I have seen in the UK and believe me I travel to these countries a lot, I have never ever been approached at cash machines by poor children and threatened in London, I have in Paris.

You've spent months telling us business will leave the uk if we raise corporation tax 5%. I've just completely disproved this. Now you've decided to switch to arguing about immigration. 

 

I think perhaps you need to stop arguing about corporation tax now.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

23 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The massive corporations hardly pay any tax here as it is. Normal companies aren't going to leave because of a small increase in business taxes to still less than it was only 7 years ago when they were all here working away calmly.

The answer here in the UK should be yes.

 

An interesting report on EU taxation is attached, shows taxes across EU at state level.

 

I've picked out a couple of items also

 

 

taxation_trends_report_2017.pdf

Yes we should encourage them to pay tax here as they make billions out of our economy. Of course all the Socialists/Corbynistas  could stop using those companies.

 

They were not working away calmly though were they? A lot of business was leaving because Labour kept putting up tax, the amount we were collecting fell businesses collapsed/left because the government wanted to keep on screwing them I remember 2008 very well.

 

Many new start ups have opened since 2010 Labours tax rates would probably kill them off.

Edited 20 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest Foxin_mad]

6 minutes ago, toddybad said:

The only EU countries with corporation taxes like ours are the ones with small economies. All the bigger players have tax tastes MUCH higher than ours. Business doesn't leave. It's worth the extra to have access to rich customers and developed infrastructure. Unfortunately the Tories are trying to turn us into a poor neighbour with crap public infrastructure but low tax to try to make up for it.

 

 

We haven't got a crap infrastructure though and we wont that is just what you strangely believe. I would argue the UK is a much better place than all the Western European countries.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

5 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You've spent months telling us business will leave the uk if we raise corporation tax 5%. I've just completely disproved this. Now you've decided to switch to arguing about immigration. 

 

I think perhaps you need to stop arguing about corporation tax now.

You haven't disproved it at all. How do you know business hasn't left Germany or France how have your proved that?

 

You have produced a chart showing they bring in more tax than us? Fantastic that proves everything.

 

The UK is completely different kettle of fish in many ways, they are manufacturing economies we are not. Its a lot easier to move a bank to Hong Kong than a car plant to Poland, although quite a lot of that has gone on recently. Most of our GDP is from Service (rightly or wrongly) and the South East. We kill that off at our peril.

 

Should we have more manufacturing, should the economy be rebalanced absolutely yes. Does Labour have a plan to do this or any idea how to achieve this? Absolutely not. They haven't even acknowledged that anywhere outside Brighton and Islington exists as far as I am aware.

 

You say you want great infrastructure but you want to nationalise it! British Rail was crap, British Telecom was crap, British Gas was crap, British Leyland was crap, they were all infested by union mentality and stupidity which made them inefficient and unfit for purpose. The Unions during the 70s are one of the many reasons we don't make anything anymore, we used to be the best our products from the 70s were either complete garbage or never ever got finished in time.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Yes we should encourage them to pay tax here as they make billions out of our economy. Of course all the Socialists/Corbynistas  could stop using those companies.

 

They were not working away calmly though were they? A lot of business was leaving because Labour kept putting up tax, the amount we were collecting fell businesses collapsed/left because the government wanted to keep on screwing them I remember 2008 very well.

 

Many new start ups have opened since 2010 Labours tax rates would probably kill them off.

Tax fell because of a global financial crisis you numpty.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Tax fell because of a global financial crisis you numpty.

Oh that one again. It fell catastrophically, there were other reasons behind this. Labours mismanagement of the economy was beginning to come home to roost.

 

They were strangling the economy with high taxation, there was no room to grow.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

You haven't disproved it at all. How do you know business hasn't left Germany or France how have your proved that?

 

You have produced a chart showing they bring in more tax than us? Fantastic that proves everything.

 

The UK is completely different kettle of fish in many ways, they are manufacturing economies we are not. Its a lot easier to move a bank to Hong Kong than a car plant to Poland, although quite a lot of that has gone on recently. Most of our GDP is from Service (rightly or wrongly) and the South East. We kill that off at our peril.

 

Should we have more manufacturing, should the economy be rebalanced absolutely yes. Does Labour have a plan to do this or any idea how to achieve this? Absolutely not. They haven't even acknowledged that anywhere outside Brighton and Islington exists as far as I am aware.

 

You say you want great infrastructure but you want to nationalise it! British Rail was crap, British Telecom was crap, British Gas was crap, British Leyland was crap, they were all infested by union mentality and stupidity which made them inefficient and unfit for purpose. The Unions during the 70s are one of the many reasons we don't make anything anymore, we used to be the best our products from the 70s were either complete garbage or never ever got finished in time.

I can't take you seriously fox.

You're like a broken record.

Germany outperforms any other country in Europe by a significant distance. It's corporation tax is far higher than ours. Which two countries do finance countries talk of relocating to due to Brexit? France (Paris)and Germany (Frankfurt) - both with far higher corporation taxes. 

Labour had an industrial strategy devoted to the region's prior to the election. But you haven't bothered to find that out before commenting.

It's like you've been cuckolded by business and the Tories. 

 

I'm going to be setting you to muted from now on so I don't have to read this crap any more.

[Rogstanley]

30 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

And do you think France and or Germany are better places than the UK? I certainly don't. Massive issues with integrating immigration in Germany particularly in the South, France has many cities with extremely poor divided neighbourhoods with huge crime issues so whatever they are doing to me is not a success. Its far worse that anything I have seen in the UK and believe me I travel to these countries a lot, I have never ever been approached at cash machines by poor children and threatened in London, I have in Paris.

Wages in both France and Germany are higher. 

 

I'd say they're pretty comparable otherwise.

 

Basically you'e ignoring proper, peer reviewed studies, ignoring facts about tax being higher elsewhere and businesses not leaving and persisting with this bizarre belief that people totally uproot their businesses, careers, personal lives and the lives of their families just over a small increase in tax.

 

It's mind-boggling and does make you very hard to take seriously I'm afraid.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

I can't take you seriously fox.

You're like a broken record.

Germany outperforms any other country in Europe by a significant distance. It's corporation tax is far higher than ours. Which two countries do finance countries talk of relocating to due to Brexit? France (Paris)and Germany (Frankfurt) - both with far higher corporation taxes. 

Labour had an industrial strategy devoted to the region's prior to the election. But you haven't bothered to find that out before commenting.

It's like you've been cuckolded by business and the Tories. 

 

I'm going to be setting you to muted from now on so I don't have to read this crap any more.

You neither you swallowed Maos little red book it seems or the Guardian!

 

Germany is a manufacturing country which part of that do you no understand.

 

The finance companies talk of staying in London unless EU laws force them to move actually. They wont move to the EU unless they have to. Anything else and it will be a low tax regime, Hong Kong.

 

Labour industrial strategy was complete rubbish like most of the stuff the spouted before the election, completely unworkable in the real world. Which figures as none of those socialist clowns have ever had a proper job.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Wages in both France and Germany are higher. 

 

I'd say they're pretty comparable otherwise.

 

Basically you'e ignoring proper, peer reviewed studies, ignoring facts about tax being higher elsewhere and businesses not leaving and persisting with this bizarre belief that people totally uproot their businesses, careers, personal lives and the lives of their families just over a small increase in tax.

 

It's mind-boggling and does make you very hard to take seriously I'm afraid.

So wages are higher and Taxes are higher, seems pointless. I work in most cities in both countries and I can confirm certain cities there are far more deprived and divided than anything here. So to use them as a beacon on high tax isn't really a good one!

 

You have ignored the France situation people left there, their Prime minister said so. Not a study or a think tank,

 

You are also very hard to take seriously.

 

Socialists burying their head in the sand since 1979! Still we can always borrow just a tad more I suppose!!

Edited 20 November 2017 by Foxin_mad

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Oh that one again. It fell catastrophically, there were other reasons behind this. Labours mismanagement of the economy was beginning to come home to roost.

 

They were strangling the economy with high taxation, there was no room to grow.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-myth-excessive-government-borrowing-got-us-into-this-mess-8601390.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/dec/29/labour-government-not-responsible-crash-bank-england-governor-mervyn-king

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

You neither you swallowed Maos little red book it seems or the Guardian!

 

Germany is a manufacturing country which part of that do you no understand.

 

The finance companies talk of staying in London unless EU laws force them to move actually. They wont move to the EU unless they have to. Anything else and it will be a low tax regime, Hong Kong.

 

Labour industrial strategy was complete rubbish like most of the stuff the spouted before the election, completely unworkable in the real world. Which figures as none of those socialist clowns have ever had a proper job.

Britain was a manufacturing country until the Tories decimated the north in the 80s.

 

Can you tell me which parts of Labour's industrial strategy were unworkable? Forgive me but I doubt very much that you've ever read it.

[Guest]

Imagine a world in which you believed that government could neither tax nor borrow to raise income. 

 

It's like some people on here think the Tories can keep the country going by finding a magic money tree.

[Guest]

Can somebody tell me again - how do I mute fox?

[Kopfkino]

On 17/11/2017 at 14:46, Rogstanley said:

People entering the workforce, people moving up the pay scale via professional development, and people retiring should more or less balance out. In any case that effect has always been there so it not a reason not to compare different periods of time.

 

Unemployment is at about the same level now as it was circa 2006, so there has been no increase in the proportion of people in work since then and yet wages have fallen significantly. 

 

You may well be able to partially explain it by saying that in 2006 there were more well paid jobs and in 2017 more jobs are lower paid. That’s not really something to celebrate though, is it?

 

It wouldn’t fully explain it, either, because the stats show that wages across most industry sectors have fallen as well and many of those sectors won’t have provided an increase in naturally lower paid jobs.

 

Take for example the sector “water supply, sewage, waste management and remediation activities”. The vast majority of jobs in that sector are going to be fairly technical and demand fairly steady, with little prospect of a sudden increase in lower skilled/lower paid jobs to drive down the average wage. So why have wages in that sector fallen? Likewise wages for “Professional, scientific and technical activities” have fallen significantly while obviously there can’t have been a surge in the number of low paid, unskilled professional jobs because they don’t exist.

 

On two separate occasions you've had a go at people being presented with studies and completely ignoring them (whilst also ignoring the content of what they said) but now, when presented with a piece by an academic from GWU, flanked by from a genuinely centrist and prestigious think tank, that builds on a recent study by an economist at San Francisco's State Federal Reserve and an academic at Arizona, supported by ONS comments, you decide to completely ignore its contents in favour of saying it should more or less balance out and then deciding there is no reason to compare different time periods despite structural differences that might well have an influence. 

 

Then you've also arbitrarily chosen 2006 as a point of comparison, knowing full well the recession had an effect on wages and therefore it's not particularly useful to compare. Fair enough criticise wage growth since 2010 but such arbitrary comparisons are pointless. 

 

Therefore I'm not really sure there's much point discussing it with you, however, I will due to it being a dull and uninspiring Monday evening. 

 

As I said before, I didn't say it was optimal but it isn't quite the picture painted by just looking at the median real wage and being outraged by falling wages. I've asked someone to show me that people are genuinely worse off and it hasn't been forthcoming. With respect to your examples, I have checked it out and yes there has been a fall in the real wage statistics. Now you're immediately wrong because you've assumed there can't have been an increase in low paid jobs in the "Professional, scientific and technical activities" because it says Professional. It's the industry you work in and so therefore the receptionist at a firm is included. Still, even ignoring that, it is entirely possible for firms to have released senior managers, consolidated their structures higher up and beefed up teams with some juniors. I know its happened in financial services so in all likelihood will have happened elsewhere. But still all that is immaterial, because until you actually have an understanding of the structural make-up of the whole labour market and the individual sectors, it's near futile to commentate on one statistic that says a median is falling. Now if you have any idea of any structural changes within water that may have impacted the wages and why they occurred I'll gladly begin to pay attention to your idea that looking at sectors proves academics to be wrong (and given the fall for water in 2010, it might well be possible to blame it on government). But given I suspect you have little knowledge of structural effects over the period, and labour economics, I won't be holding my breath, and I suspect you'll continue to look at isolated ONS figures and not consider questioning why they show what they show aside from waving your fist at the bastard Tories.