Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 5 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: Haven't been on since the weekend and come back to find @Alf Bentley has gone deliriously mad. Have a lie down pal Cutting tariffs on food is going to leave us with zero food security (as if we are food secure as it is), destroy our countryside, and leave thousands destitute. Deary me. Sorry, mate. I've moved on to debates concerning Will Smith's daughter, tombolas, denture polish and Mr. Kipling cakes now. Will have to debate import tariffs and my needs for repose with you another time.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: Sorry, mate. I've moved on to debates concerning Will Smith's daughter, tombolas, denture polish and Mr. Kipling cakes now. Will have to debate import tariffs and my needs for repose with you another time. Thank heavens for that. Must be productive. As soon as I replied I was questioning why I've done this to myself
Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 Just now, Kopfkino said: Thank heavens for that. Must be productive. As soon as I replied I was questioning why I've done this to myself I often have the same experience - and rarely seem to learn from it.
Strokes Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 4 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: Is that true, Buce (genuine question)? It doesn't tally with my experience. I did a lot of seasonal fruit/veg picking in the late 70s/early 80s and don't remember meeting any foreign workers. I vaguely remember hearing about some teams coming to do long-term winter work on farms - and French grape-picking was quite international when I went over there, but my UK experience was..... - Strawberries (summer, Kent & Norfolk): English housewives, students & gypsies - Apples (early autumn, Kent): English housewives & students - Potatoes (winter, Kent & Norfolk): Unemployed or under-employed local men I presume the answer to "how did we farm before free movement" is: a lot more local labour, higher food prices in real terms, less spare cash for consumers to spend on other stuff (i.e. lower living standards) & lower profits/dividends for the big supermarkets and their shareholders. We also imported less food and had a less varied diet. I've no idea whether it would be economically viable for the UK to close down its farming sector and depend on foreign imports as some Brexiteers seem to want. But I can certainly see disadvantages: mass job losses (suppliers, not just farmers); lost expertise & local produce; lost focus for rural communities; vast tracts of land abandoned or sold off; big increase in transport congestion; increase in global warming; climate change making crops less reliable in Africa etc. As Buce, says, though, food security is a big issue. Not being self-sufficient is one thing, but choosing to depend entirely on foreigners to supply our food is on another scale. I've never heard anyone in any country ever suggest such a thing before you Brexit nutters - and in times of global volatility. I think you've got intoxicated by obsessions with free markets and the all-importance of the consumer and have gone insane. The country needs people to be producers as well as consumers, otherwise they have no cash to buy anything, however cheap your imports might be - or are all the farmers going to be running high-tech start-ups or working in burger bars? And if we're not going to bother about food security, why bother about energy security or defence security? We could lose all the expensive home-produced energy and rely on Russia or Saudi to provide the consumer with cheap energy imports. We could completely eliminate the defence budget, give everyone a tax cut and rely on Trump for defence.... Alternatively, we could NOT close down the country's agriculture sector and could NOT accept zero food security and total dependence on foreign imports. Instead, we could make sure that agricultural labour pays a decent wage and that jobs are available to locals. That might mean consumers accepting some increase in food prices, but there are many ways of managing that to avoid major problems. It might also mean the big supermarkets and their shareholders accepting some lost profits - often earned by screwing farmers (I'm sure some farmers have millions in the bank, Matt, but most don't - and most depend on EU payments for half their income, despite often working very hard). A few questions for you Tory Brexit nutters.... - Why are British farmers so dependent on foreign labour, what have the Tory Govt done to remedy that and what are they going to do, given the outflow of EU labour? They are dependant on the Labour because of the price competition of food and the small profit margins, cheaper dispensable labour helps them compete. No idea what the tories are doing about it and I’m not convinced it’s their place to intervene. - As some agricultural labour is short-term seasonal work, what could the Govt do to encourage/help Brits to access such work - and what is it doing? He could offer students a chance to pay off student loans or he could get prisoners/community work out there reducing their sentance. - How will farmers and those employed by suppliers or spin-offs make a living (e.g. fertiliser plants, tractor/tool manufacturers, livestock/crop traders, local food producers/processors)? We could easily subsidise them with the import tax from EU foods - What should happen to the vast tracts of farmland if you close down the UK agriculture sector? Build prison camps for remainiacs. Wilderness? Development of new commuter towns? - What would you do if we were dependent on Africa or the US for food and supplies stopped for political, economic or natural reasons (e.g. Africa is increasingly subject to drought, US is currently a politically unpredictable nationalist state)? Buy from the EU and remove import tax, grow your own, giving people allotted land in the wilderness next to the prison camps 1
Milo Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 58 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: No answers to my questions, then? p.s. The reference to Tory Brexit nutters was meant affectionately. I know ? I have a confession... ...I’ve never voted Conservative in my life. But I seem to been tarred with a Leave voter/daily mail reader/little Englander/racist brush... None of the the above could be further from the truth...(well most of the above...) I’m a big believer in democracy and the current situation isn’t democratic. Majority vote to leave, minority kick off and we’re left in limbo. Remainers (see, I can do it) want a second vote. Government want to push Brexit through so now the Lords is being lobbied to scupper any progress. Regardless of which side of the argument you are on, this is wrong. In my not so humble opinion 1
Rogstanley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 1 hour ago, Kopfkino said: Thank heavens for that. Must be productive. As soon as I replied I was questioning why I've done this to myself All you contributed was to unnecessarily mock alf so god knows why you're feeling sorry for yourself. If you want to believe you're 'above' everyone else in here fine (haven't seen any evidence of that myself, certainly not in comparison to a superb poster like Alf) but there's no need to mock is there. 1
Guest Kopfkino Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: All you contributed was to unnecessarily mock alf so god knows why you're feeling sorry for yourself. If you want to believe you're 'above' everyone else in here fine (haven't seen any evidence of that myself, certainly not in comparison to a superb poster like Alf) but there's no need to mock is there. Pipe down Rog Bruce still reeling from me saying he spoke nonsense straight in there to give that one a like Edited 17 May 2018 by Kopfkino
Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 11 minutes ago, Milo said: I know ? I have a confession... ...I’ve never voted Conservative in my life. But I seem to been tarred with a Leave voter/daily mail reader/little Englander/racist brush... None of the the above could be further from the truth...(well most of the above...) I’m a big believer in democracy and the current situation isn’t democratic. Majority vote to leave, minority kick off and we’re left in limbo. Remainers (see, I can do it) want a second vote. Government want to push Brexit through so now the Lords is being lobbied to scupper any progress. Regardless of which side of the argument you are on, this is wrong. In my not so humble opinion I'd struggle to ever vote Tory, unless I was in a Tory/BNP marginal or something. Though if the local candidates were Ken Clarke (Con) and Kate Hoey (Lab), I'd be tempted. If the Lords had tried to overturn the vote to leave the EU, I'd agree with your point on democracy. But the Lords hasn't tried to overturn the vote. It has referred amendments to the Commons, asking it to look at various issues that the Govt didn't want it to look at. The Commons will hold the Govt to account on Brexit negotiating priorities - but won't overturn the referendum result. The focus of most Remainers (including the Lords) is on challenging the type of Brexit preferred by the Govt. That is perfectly democratic. While the Govt has an absolute mandate to pursue Brexit, nobody has any mandate for any particular kind of Brexit. That was not on the ballot paper and (despite what some say) there was no Hard Brexit mandate from the campaign. It is perfectly democratic for people to dispute the Govt's preferred form of Brexit. Some Remainers want a second referendum, others don't but would like our sovereign parliament to challenge the hard-line Brexit that the Govt prefers. I'm not keen on the idea of a second referendum on any deal - unless the terms negotiated are widely perceived as very bad. Parliament ordering Govt to opt for a Softer Brexit - and, if necessary, to renegotiate (or call an election) seems better. What could be MORE democratic than our directly-elected Commons holding our indirectly-elected PM and unelected Cabinet to account, without reversing the referendum result?
Rogstanley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: Pipe down Rog How did those exams that you couldn't be bothered to revise for go? Looking forward to stepping up to the big leagues of third year undergraduate? Edited 17 May 2018 by Rogstanley
Guest Kopfkino Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 15 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: How did those exams that you couldn't be bothered to revise for go? Looking forward to stepping up to the big leagues of third year undergraduate? One's tomorrow and one's on Monday. Likely to be terrible and if they are, well these things happen and it can only be my fault. Long run it won't make much difference. I am thanks, most of my modules promise to be quite interesting and enjoyable
Rogstanley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 8 minutes ago, Kopfkino said: One's tomorrow and one's on Monday. Likely to be terrible and if they are, well these things happen and it can only be my fault. Long run it won't make much difference. I am thanks, most of my modules promise to be quite interesting and enjoyable Fair enough matey chops. Good luck in your exams (genuinely). Get thinking about your dissertation if you haven't already, third year goes by in a flash and that deadline will be upon you before you know it.
Guest Kopfkino Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 16 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Fair enough matey chops. Good luck in your exams (genuinely). Get thinking about your dissertation if you haven't already, third year goes by in a flash and that deadline will be upon you before you know it. Actually don't do one/I'm choosing not to. Probably makes the workload harder but will more interesting
Milo Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 hours ago, Alf Bentley said: indirectly-elected PM and unelected Cabinet to account, without reversing the referendum To the elected Lords...???
Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 21 minutes ago, Milo said: To the elected Lords...??? The Lords has only referred issues back to the elected Commons, which can ignore and over-rule amendments from the Lords, if it chooses.
Milo Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 1 hour ago, Alf Bentley said: The Lords has only referred issues back to the elected Commons, which can ignore and over-rule amendments from the Lords, if it chooses. Obfuscation
Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 4 minutes ago, Milo said: Obfuscation Obfuscation by May to avoid splitting her party, I agree, though she won't be able to carry that on for much longer. In contrast, my comment was a statement of fact - even if it fell on the deaf ears of the willfully paranoid with you.
Milo Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 44 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Obfuscation by May to avoid splitting her party, I agree, though she won't be able to carry that on for much longer. In contrast, my comment was a statement of fact - even if it fell on the deaf ears of the willfully paranoid with you. So I’m paranoid as well as a racist/little Englander/daily mail reader...and gammon, apparently. Not deaf ears at all - on the contrary, I enjoy your insight.
Guest Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Milo said: I know ? I have a confession... ...I’ve never voted Conservative in my life. But I seem to been tarred with a Leave voter/daily mail reader/little Englander/racist brush... None of the the above could be further from the truth...(well most of the above...) I’m a big believer in democracy and the current situation isn’t democratic. Majority vote to leave, minority kick off and we’re left in limbo. Remainers (see, I can do it) want a second vote. Government want to push Brexit through so now the Lords is being lobbied to scupper any progress. Regardless of which side of the argument you are on, this is wrong. In my not so humble opinion The problem really is that the Brexiters had absolutely no plan whatsoever for what changes they'd make, why they'd make them, how they'd make them, who they'd make them with etc. If they'd had any idea about how to go about getting this remarkable future they hoped for they'd have got their act together by now and lead the thing. But they haven't a clue. Hence we see boris and gove signing off cabinet agreements which are not what they talk about publicly. You can say no deal is better than a bad deal as many times as you like but it's difficult to claim anybody voted for no deal when that entire leave campaign was run on the premise that a deal with the EU would take about 3 minutes to agree. We do know that a number of foxestalkers would like to see no deal and this seeps into the real world of Brexiteers too but you never hear Boris or gove say this. JRM does but he's got nothing to lose and, quite frankly, is a cartoon MP. But none of them have any idea what they really want the outcome to be or how to get there. So how can you blame remainers for pushing back? And re the lords you're just wrong. All they've done is kick patently bad laws back to the commons to reconsider. Edited 17 May 2018 by Guest
Alf Bentley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 36 minutes ago, Milo said: So I’m paranoid as well as a racist/little Englander/daily mail reader...and gammon, apparently. Not deaf ears at all - on the contrary, I enjoy your insight. I've not seen any racists, Little Englanders and Daily Mail readers around here. That must be your paranoia again. And your photo clearly shows you to be a hot dog, not a gammon. Glad you enjoy the insight. I enjoy the debate on here - well, most of the time.
Milo Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 11 minutes ago, toddybad said: The problem really is that the Brexiters had absolutely no plan whatsoever for what changes they'd make, why they'd make them, how they'd make them, who they'd make them with etc. That wasn't what the referendum was based on. The vote was a 'do you want to stay or leave' option. It wasn't a 'how do you expect to achieve leaving the EU' vote. 15 minutes ago, toddybad said: If they'd had any idea about how to go about getting this remarkable future they hoped for they'd have got their act together by now and lead the thing. If the moaning naysayers would do us all a favour and fvck off, then it might be a bit easier to achieve. 18 minutes ago, toddybad said: Hence we see boris and gove signing off cabinet agreements which are not what they talk about publicly. I assume you are familiar with politics? 19 minutes ago, toddybad said: You can say no deal is better than a bad deal as many times as you like but it's difficult to claim anybody voted for no deal when that entire leave campaign was run on the premise that a deal with the EU would take about 3 minutes to agree. Was it? Really? 21 minutes ago, toddybad said: We do know that a number of foxestalkers would like to see no deal and this seeps into the real world of Brexiteers too but you never hear Boris or gove say this. JRM does but he's got nothing to lose and, quite frankly, is a cartoon MP. But none of them have any idea what they really want the outcome to be or how to get there. So how can you blame remainers for pushing back? Remainers, by nature, wish to remain. They are not pushing back, they want to remain in the EU, and in the process are arguing against every conceivable point made by the Government. 28 minutes ago, toddybad said: And re the lords you're just wrong. All they've done is kick patently bad laws back to the commons to reconsider. Nope, I'm not. Unelected cronies selling their vote to the highest bidder. 1
Rogstanley Posted 18 May 2018 Posted 18 May 2018 (edited) To be honest, with what we know now about the width of the range of possible brexits, and the huge number of previously inconsidered potential consequences that are still becoming apparent, I don’t know how anyone can pull the democracy card and keep a straight face. It’s clear that the question posed in the referendum was woefully inadequate at conveying the real range of options and in no way gave the government any sort of democratic remit to decide which sort of brexit they would go for. May’s 2017 election shambles was an attempt at providing clarification which clearly didn’t work, far from providing a clear mandate it resulted in her having to use tax payer money to bribe the DUP to save her career and keep the Tories in power. There needs to be another vote on the terms of brexit, imho. I can accept there not being an option to remain - that part of it is done for at least another 6 years or so - but the public not getting a say in whether we get a hard crash brexit or a soft and secure brexit is an absolute affront to democracy. It’s the key political issue of our time and we’re being lead by a PM that working age people didn’t want and who has demonstrated her outstanding immorality on numerous occasions down a path that nobody has voted for. The Tories have made such an awful mess of this issue, and of the country, during their 8 years in power. Edited 18 May 2018 by Rogstanley 1
Buce Posted 18 May 2018 Posted 18 May 2018 13 hours ago, Milo said: I know ? I have a confession... ...I’ve never voted Conservative in my life. But I seem to been tarred with a Leave voter/daily mail reader/little Englander/racist brush... None of the the above could be further from the truth...(well most of the above...) I’m a big believer in democracy and the current situation isn’t democratic. Majority vote to leave, minority kick off and we’re left in limbo. Remainers (see, I can do it) want a second vote. Government want to push Brexit through so now the Lords is being lobbied to scupper any progress. Regardless of which side of the argument you are on, this is wrong. In my not so humble opinion 4 'Qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent' Lucius Senaca.
Guest Posted 18 May 2018 Posted 18 May 2018 7 hours ago, Milo said: That wasn't what the referendum was based on. The vote was a 'do you want to stay or leave' option. It wasn't a 'how do you expect to achieve leaving the EU' vote. If the moaning naysayers would do us all a favour and fvck off, then it might be a bit easier to achieve. I assume you are familiar with politics? Was it? Really? Remainers, by nature, wish to remain. They are not pushing back, they want to remain in the EU, and in the process are arguing against every conceivable point made by the Government. Nope, I'm not. Unelected cronies selling their vote to the highest bidder. Just on your first two points. I'm not sure the first is relevant to where we are now. Yes we voted leave. It may have escaped your notice but we are leaving. My point is nobody had the foggiest HOW to leave. The fact a leaver hasn't challenged May for leader and driven the thing on, instead being content to watch the current botched negotiations, shows the leavers don't know. Re the push back, the argument is about soft Brexit vs hard Brexit. They are both Brexit. There is no other political issue where anybody argues about one option to a destination being the 'true' path and it shows a degree of fundamentalism that anybody tries it on this topic tbh.
Guest MattP Posted 18 May 2018 Posted 18 May 2018 40 minutes ago, toddybad said: I'm not sure the first is relevant to where we are now. Yes we voted leave. It may have escaped your notice but we are leaving. My point is nobody had the foggiest HOW to leave. The fact a leaver hasn't challenged May for leader and driven the thing on, instead being content to watch the current botched negotiations, shows the leavers don't know. Re the push back, the argument is about soft Brexit vs hard Brexit. They are both Brexit. There is no other political issue where anybody argues about one option to a destination being the 'true' path and it shows a degree of fundamentalism that anybody tries it on this topic tbh. Sorry but you are showing your political ignorance here. Without even considering the public perception and intolerance of the Conservative party yet again having a leadership contest, if May was usurped at this point in time by a Brexit cartel then the votes of the small faction of hard/hardish Remainers in the Tory party would be gone for the rest of parliament and then you are either faced with another general election to try and pass legislation through for what they would want or softening even greater than it looks now, for all the criticism of May she's actually done extremely well so far bringing the two sides together, she has lost one vote because of the rebels so far and instead the unelected house has been the one causing more problems. At the minute it's best for them to sit tight, see the departure through and then set out plans for when they take control in the future. If the Tories had a majority of 60, what you suggest would have happened, but it would be completely insane with the mathematics of parliament to pro a Mogg, Gove or Johnson in charge now. The time to go "harder" would either be with an increased majority next time around, or even see Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell try and do it as they seek further re-nationalisation and avoidance of deficit control.
Alf Bentley Posted 18 May 2018 Posted 18 May 2018 1 hour ago, Buce said: 'Qui cum canibus concumbunt cum pulicibus surgent' Lucius Senaca. "He who gets on the bus bearing a can will see burnt cucumbers surge from his pubes"? This Senaca bloke needs to be relieved of his position as Stagecoach CEO.
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