Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 18 minutes ago, ealingfox said: Lol Why? I'm not the one making grand statements about things I don't know anything about, which your response proves. What even is that reply? Just admit you don't know. The fact is that Venezuela is absolutely incomparable to the UK in economic terms, your continued use of it as the crux of an argument against a Labour government is utterly worthless and proves how little actual substance you have. I'll start you off with something easy - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela You are you are telling me I need to read. I disagree with you, you are a socialist so you become all shouty when people don't agree with you which is fair enough. THICKTORY SCUM SHIT GAMMON AHA Usual caring left bollocks. I am well aware the economy of Venezuela is different, which is my point. They are an oil rich nation that became ****ed because of socialism, we are a country with **** all and a shit tonne of debt and no oil and people think socialism is the solution or Brexit. Do you see the problem here?
Carl the Llama Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 4 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: You are you are telling me I need to read. I disagree with you, you are a socialist so you become all shouty when people don't agree with you which is fair enough. THICKTORY SCUM SHIT GAMMON AHA Usual caring left bollocks. I am well aware the economy of Venezuela is different, which is my point. They are an oil rich nation that became ****ed because of socialism, we are a country with **** all and a shit tonne of debt and no oil and people think socialism is the solution or Brexit. Do you see the problem here? He's not being shouty and you're the one making wild exaggerated claims. Your strawman is bad and you should feel bad. And why are you talking about socialism in Venezuela isn't the conversation about the policies that Labour would enact in the UK as per their manifesto? And when did socialism become dependent on oil? Your grasp of political and economic concepts appears strenuous perhaps you should do some more reading. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 10 minutes ago, toddybad said: Exactly which anti bank policies are you talking about? You think we'll lose 75% of GDP overnight? Some questions: Is socialism to blame for 1973, 1990 or 2008? Is socialism to blame for us earning less on average than in 2008? Is socialism to blame for us having the slowest recovery ever? Is socialism to blame for us having the slowest sustained period of growth for over 200 years? Is socialism to blame for the top 5%'s share of the wealth increasing disproportionately over the last 40 years (I can't be bothered to find the figures again but from something like 8% to 70% of all wealth)? Is socialism to blame for the throw away and sod everybody else culture that is destroying all of the planet's ecosystems? Is socialism to blame for the destruction of lives and jobs in the north and midlands of England? Is socialism to blame for the housing crisis? Was socialism to blame for banks wrecking the economy? No, capitalism was. Good lord keep the red flag flying at?. Seriously deluded, capitalism isn't solely to blame for any of those things either perhaps a mixture of things, a changing global landscape is the issue. Fact is we are never going to see growth levels like we have in the past Re some points: Socialism will destroy the planets eco systems, those prehistoric ***** in the likes of the unions would still have us digging and burning coal if it kept them in a job! Socialism is responsible for destroying lives in the midlands and the north because the arrogant union barrons ensuring we produced or didnt shit products that were uncompetitive with the rest of the world. We have the highest employment levels ever right now, sustained growth and now rising wages. Socialism certainly wont be the solution unless you want everyone to be poorer, I almost hope that all you lot get your socialist experiment, you can see how shit it is and remember my advice and guidance. As long as I am far enough away to laugh.
leicsmac Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 6 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: He's not being shouty and you're the one making wild exaggerated claims. Your strawman is bad and you should feel bad. And why are you talking about socialism in Venezuela isn't the conversation about the policies that Labour would enact in the UK as per their manifesto? And when did socialism become dependent on oil? Your grasp of political and economic concepts appears strenuous perhaps you should do some more reading. This, along with the consistent stating opinion as fact. 1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said: Good lord keep the red flag flying at?. Seriously deluded, capitalism isn't solely to blame for any of those things either perhaps a mixture of things, a changing global landscape is the issue. Fact is we are never going to see growth levels like we have in the past Re some points: Socialism will destroy the planets eco systems, those prehistoric ***** in the likes of the unions would still have us digging and burning coal if it kept them in a job! Socialism is responsible for destroying lives in the midlands and the north because the arrogant union barrons ensuring we produced or didnt shit products that were uncompetitive with the rest of the world. We have the highest employment levels ever right now, sustained growth and now rising wages. Socialism certainly wont be the solution unless you want everyone to be poorer, I almost hope that all you lot get your socialist experiment, you can see how shit it is and remember my advice and guidance. As long as I am far enough away to laugh. 7 Interesting. And there was me thinking that total disregard for the planets finite resources and propensity for short-term gain in the name of $$$ was a specifically capitalist and/or authoritarian thing. Please, let's not pretend that any current system (that is implemented large-scale anyway) looks beyond the end of a human life and makes decisions based on the good of human future rather than individual now. 1
ealingfox Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: You are you are telling me I need to read. I disagree with you, you are a socialist so you become all shouty when people don't agree with you which is fair enough. THICKTORY SCUM SHIT GAMMON AHA Usual caring left bollocks. I am well aware the economy of Venezuela is different, which is my point. They are an oil rich nation that became ****ed because of socialism, we are a country with **** all and a shit tonne of debt and no oil and people think socialism is the solution or Brexit. Do you see the problem here? eh? Are you alright? I'm not a socialist, and I'm not shouting. That's what you're doing. I've offered a reasonable challenge to your very questionable views and you've gone off like some kind of paranoid catherine wheel. I see the problem with what you've written in that last paragraph that's for sure, it doesn't make any sense.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: He's not being shouty and you're the one making wild exaggerated claims. Your strawman is bad and you should feel bad. And why are you talking about socialism in Venezuela isn't the conversation about the policies that Labour would enact in the UK as per their manifesto? And when did socialism become dependent on oil? Your grasp of political and economic concepts appears strenuous perhaps you should do some more reading. What are you on about? They are perfectly reasonable claims about what a far left extremist government could/would do. Or are they just like the wild exaggerated claims about Brexit being made here? where the world is ending and poor people are dying in the gutter and being pissed on by the rich?! as we get told on a near daily basis backed up by Guardian articles! Socialism isn't dependant on oil, it is dependant on OTHER peoples money. This is the point here. Venezuela was oil rich, they spent a shit tonne of their oil riches on a socialist experiment (which worked whilst the money tree was printing money), the oil price went down and then they ran out of the magic money tree. They became a screwed up despot nation. Where does the money you want to spend on socialism come from? and how can you guarantee it is going to come from there? what incentive does a business have to invest in a socialist country when it could be 'requisitioned' whenever the government becomes jealous of its success? or decides it wants a piece of the action/profit? What is the point? ambition and drive to become rich and successful in life if the government is going to take 50-75% of you money and redistribute it, its a flawed principal. I would say your grasp of political and economic concepts (particularly socialism) appears strenuous perhaps you should do some more reading before you go and vote for it again?! Edited 25 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, ealingfox said: eh? Are you alright? I'm not a socialist, and I'm not shouting. That's what you're doing. I've offered a reasonable challenge to your very questionable views and you've gone off like some kind of paranoid catherine wheel. I see the problem with what you've written in that last paragraph that's for sure, it doesn't make any sense. I'm fine. I am not shouting. Its doesn't make any sense because it is the principal of socialism. Spend money you don't have on things you can not afford. That there is exactly the problem with it. Edited 25 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 7 minutes ago, leicsmac said: This, along with the consistent stating opinion as fact. Interesting. And there was me thinking that total disregard for the planets finite resources and propensity for short-term gain in the name of $$$ was a specifically capitalist and/or authoritarian thing. Please, let's not pretend that any current system (that is implemented large-scale anyway) looks beyond the end of a human life and makes decisions based on the good of human future rather than individual now. Isn't that what everyone does here? Its not. I am sure if you speak to the NMU they would rather us all be burning coal and living in 1962. I agree there isn't any current system that is perfect but I am certain that socialism is not the solution either. its delusional to think that high tax, high borrowing and anti bank regulation in a country who's entire economy is funded by errrrr banking would be a good idea......its absolutely fecking deranged and without any shadow of a doubt would lead to a lot of people being a lot poorer!
leicsmac Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said: Isn't that what everyone does here? Its not. I am sure if you speak to the NMU they would rather us all be burning coal and living in 1962. I agree there isn't any current system that is perfect but I am certain that socialism is not the solution either. its delusional to think that high tax, high borrowing and anti bank regulation in a country who's entire economy is funded by errrrr banking would be a good idea......its absolutely fecking deranged and without any shadow of a doubt would lead to a lot of people being a lot poorer! Can't speak for everyone, but I certainly take pains not to - I despise stating opinion as fact outside well-reviewed scientific study (especially when it bleeds over into politics), folks should be better at qualifying their remarks IMO otherwise it just looks arrogant. Any system that relies on maintaining the status quo is doomed to fail in my own view - whatever it might be called. I'm honestly not interested in the economic arguments beyond ensuring how it contributes to a better quality of life, tbh - said it before, money doesn't mean much to a sick man and means naff all to a dead one. Economics only means something so long as there is a stable civilisation in which it can be applied.
Buce Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 23 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Good lord keep the red flag flying at?. Seriously deluded, capitalism isn't solely to blame for any of those things either perhaps a mixture of things, a changing global landscape is the issue. Fact is we are never going to see growth levels like we have in the past Re some points: Socialism will destroy the planets eco systems, those prehistoric ***** in the likes of the unions would still have us digging and burning coal if it kept them in a job! Socialism is responsible for destroying lives in the midlands and the north because the arrogant union barrons ensuring we produced or didnt shit products that were uncompetitive with the rest of the world. We have the highest employment levels ever right now, sustained growth and now rising wages. Socialism certainly wont be the solution unless you want everyone to be poorer, I almost hope that all you lot get your socialist experiment, you can see how shit it is and remember my advice and guidance. As long as I am far enough away to laugh.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Can't speak for everyone, but I certainly take pains not to - I despise stating opinion as fact outside well-reviewed scientific study (especially when it bleeds over into politics), folks should be better at qualifying their remarks IMO otherwise it just looks arrogant. Any system that relies on maintaining the status quo is doomed to fail in my own view - whatever it might be called. I'm honestly not interested in the economic arguments beyond ensuring how it contributes to a better quality of life, tbh - said it before, money doesn't mean much to a sick man and means naff all to a dead one. Economics only means something so long as there is a stable civilisation in which it can be applied. I quantify my remarks, my economists have said there would be a run on the pound, a stock market crash, even McDonnell admitted it himself. The IMF have said Labours tax rising plans will fall short of what they want to spend, this is not my opinion, this sis experts, the same experts or different ones who claim Brexit will be a disaster. There is probably a bigger issue overall in that why do we live by money? but we do. Now everything has a value. Unless the whole world decides to become equal, we are never going to be able to spend more money than we have on the things we need or want. Nothing is perfect but I would certainly much rather be living in the UK than I would Venezuela. At the end of the day fact is, its a oil rich socialist state, tried socialism and is now poor, there is no opinion there that is fact. Edited 25 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Buce said: You might laugh now, but I will be laughing when you get your Corbyn, millions are unemployed, public sector staff are on strike after the 2nd month of no pay due to a bankrupt nation. Still its ok because the nasty rich man has gone away. Edited 25 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
leicsmac Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: There is probably a bigger issue overall in that why do we live by money, but we do. Now everything has a value. Unless the whole world decides to become equal, we are never going to be able to spend more money than we have on the things we need or want. Nothing is perfect but I would certainly much rather be living in the UK than I would Venezuela. At the end of the day fact is, its a oil rich socialist state, tried socialism and is now poor, there is no opinion there that is fact. 4 Sorry mon ami, that is entirely opinion, apart from the oil-rich part. Venezuela being a socialist state = subjective and open to interpretation. Venezeula trying socialism = subjective and open to interpretation. Venezuela being poor as a result of socialist policy = subjective and open to interpretation. Perhaps I'm being overly pedantic here but a fact is something like "when a coin is flipped, it will land on heads, tails or edge", or "The Earth is in the region of four and a half billion years old" (well-reviewed, well-sourced and well-agreed facts), not "X state tried X political system and is now X". Edited 25 May 2018 by leicsmac
Buce Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: You might laugh now, but I will be laughing when you get your Corbyn, millions are unemployed, public sector staff are on strike after the 2nd month of no pay due to a bankrupt country. Still its ok because the nasty rich man has gone away. Do you really believe the shit you post, or are you just trolling? Serious question.
Carl the Llama Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 Just now, Foxin_mad said: What are you on about? They are perfectly reasonable claims about what a far left extremist government could/would do. Or are they just like the wild exaggerated claims about Brexit being made here? where the world is ending and poor people are dying in the gutter and being pissed on by the rich?! as we get told on a near daily basis backed up by Guardian articles! Socialism isn't dependant on oil, it is dependant on OTHER peoples money. This is the point here. Venezuela was oil rich, they spent a shit tonne of their oil riches on a socialist experiment (which worked whilst the money tree was printing money), the oil price went down and then they ran out of the magic money tree. They became a screwed up despot nation. When does the money you want to spend on socialism come from? and how can you guarantee it is going to come from there? what incentive does a business have to invest in a socialist country when it could be 'requisitioned' whenever the government becomes jealous of its success? or decides it wants a piece of the action/profit? its a flawed principal. I would say your grasp of political and economic concepts (particularly socialism) appears strenuous perhaps you should do some more reading before you go and vote for it again?! Such an angry man. I don't know which wild exaggerated Brexit claims you're referring to but I guess the answer is yes, it's exactly like that, you come across precisely as unhinged as your portrayal of Remoaners. When did I vote for "socialism" by the way and who told you, was it that grass McCarthy? And do you realise that referring to Socialism as an evil monolith makes no sense and renders it hard to see what you understand by the term because it's a broad term encompassing everything from authoritarian communism to supporting the provision of healthcare and a social safety net by a democratic government in a capitalist state? So maybe you should read about socialism, social democracy, authoritarianism, planned economies etc. then get back to us on which socialist evil (and there are many) you think we're all foolishly clamouring for. 2
Sharpe's Fox Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 The problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of other peoples assets.
Guest Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: The problem with Thatcherism is that you eventually run out of other peoples assets. And, quite frankly, other people's money. The difference between socialism and Thatcherism is that the first uses the rich's money to try to improve the lot of the poor and the latter uses the poor's money to improve the lot of the rich. Whether either can be successful is rather irrelevant. The second ideology is morally corrupt. Edited 25 May 2018 by Guest
Strokes Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, toddybad said: "The sky would fall, the sun would burn out, the tides would roll out forever" It sounds truly apocalyptic. Who'd have thought a country treating it's own water supplies and taxing corporations what they were taxed 4 years ago would bring about the end of days? I'm glad you've found an example country that is exactly like the UK that we can learn from. Where is your evidence that it will work? What is your successful uk like country that we can use? It’s as much a shot in the dark as brexit and we know how critical you have been of that for that very reason. You actually think people with wealth are just going to sit there and watch Socialism take it away? Edited 25 May 2018 by Strokes 1
Guest Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Strokes said: Where is your evidence that it will work? What is your successful uk like country that we can use? It’s as much a shot in the dark as brexit and we know how critical you have been of that for that very reason. You actually think people with wealth are just going to sit there and watch Socialism take it away? Tell me exactly which policies are going to take away the wealth of the rich? You seriously believe corporation tax at 2014 levels is going to do that? Personal tax at £80k+ going up a little bit? People of real wealth don't pay their bloody taxes anyway so explain to me how they're suddenly going to lose out? Explain to me also why they shouldn't. Tbh I'd vote for a centre left labour, I still wouldn't vote for brexit. Edited 25 May 2018 by Guest
Alf Bentley Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 1 hour ago, Strokes said: Where is your evidence that it will work? What is your successful uk like country that we can use? It’s as much a shot in the dark as brexit and we know how critical you have been of that for that very reason. You actually think people with wealth are just going to sit there and watch Socialism take it away? Successful UK-like country under socialism?........... UK 1945-51 Want a current one? ......... Well, depends how you define socialism, but Germany & Sweden are more like the UK than Venezuela is. They are also closer to socialism than the UK is - and more economically and socially successful by most measures. Will people with wealth just sit there and watch socialism take it away? Well the people without wealth just sit there and watch while the Tories take their wealth away (social wealth, i.e. public services) and hand it out to their mates in corporation tax cuts.... Are you rich bastards less patriotic than us poor bastards, then?
Strokes Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Successful UK-like country under socialism?........... UK 1945-51 Want a current one? ......... Well, depends how you define socialism, but Germany & Sweden are more like the UK than Venezuela is. They are also closer to socialism than the UK is - and more economically and socially successful by most measures. Will people with wealth just sit there and watch socialism take it away? Well the people without wealth just sit there and watch while the Tories take their wealth away (social wealth, i.e. public services) and hand it out to their mates in corporation tax cuts.... Are you rich bastards less patriotic than us poor bastards, then? The alternative to watching the tories take off us to give to wealthy, is letting labour take it off us and give to the banks. I think we are still paying for that one Also Germany have been running budget surpluses reguarly for some time, the tories do that and they are evil. Swedens healthcare system is part privatised, if the tories do it that they are evil... Social justice is just some empty bullshit buzzwords that mean nothing and deliver the same. Edited 25 May 2018 by Strokes 2
Strokes Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, toddybad said: the first uses the rich's money to try to improve the lot of the poor 32 minutes ago, toddybad said: Tell me exactly which policies are going to take away the wealth of the rich? You dont need it detailing, look you already know it. 32 minutes ago, toddybad said: You seriously believe corporation tax at 2014 levels is going to do that? Personal tax at £80k+ going up a little bit? No, i didnt say that. Not even close. 32 minutes ago, toddybad said: People of real wealth don't pay their bloody taxes anyway so explain to me how they're suddenly going to lose out? Yes they do pay their taxes, dont be ridiculous. 32 minutes ago, toddybad said: Explain to me also why they shouldn't. They already do contribute more. 32 minutes ago, toddybad said: Tbh I'd vote for a centre left labour, I still wouldn't vote for brexit. And the award for the most obvious statement of the year goes too...... Edited 25 May 2018 by Strokes 2
Guest Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 31 minutes ago, Strokes said: You dont need it detailing, look you already know it. No, i didnt say that. Not even close. Yes they do pay their taxes, dont be ridiculous. They already do contribute more. And the award for the most obvious statement of the year goes too...... In terms of the rich contributing more - they actually contribute in line with their proportion of the overall wealth, not more.
Strokes Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 5 minutes ago, toddybad said: In terms of the rich contributing more - they actually contribute in line with their proportion of the overall wealth, not more. That depends what you're defining as rich? You earn more than me toddy, maybe you are rich and should pay more.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 25 May 2018 Posted 25 May 2018 Good film about social justice here people should watch
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