Crime Statistics Increase after Police Numbers Decrease

[Parafox]

So now violent crime, knife crime, thefts from homes and street robberies have increased by 21% as police numbers have decreased by 18%. 

 

Surely there's a link between the two.

 

I've recently been a victim of a crime against my person which should have had a direct response from the police but all I got was a reference number if I wanted to pursue the incident further.

 

 

[Craig]

A definite link.

 

The criminals are fully aware that the Police don't have the resources to cope, they tell me as much. 

 

The Police here (Northants) seem to be recruiting heavily at the moment so hopefully that will help things.

 

Worrying to see the Met writing to retired officers asking them to come out of retirement though!

[ajthefox]

It's the police being wasteful is all. Once they get used to having less money they will learn to be more efficient. Then we'll hit them with more cuts!!

[Parafox]

5 minutes ago, ajthefox said:

It's the police being wasteful is all. Once they get used to having less money they will learn to be more efficient. Then we'll hit them with more cuts!!

Sadly, the same applies to other necessary services

[Innovindil]

Anyone know why violent crime is up in Scotland (compared to last year)?

[Izzy]

16 minutes ago, Craig said:

A definite link.

 

The criminals are fully aware that the Police don't have the resources to cope, they tell me as much. 

 

The Police here (Northants) seem to be recruiting heavily at the moment so hopefully that will help things.

 

Worrying to see the Met writing to retired officers asking them to come out of retirement though!

I'm a little concerned that you'd admit on here that the criminals are speaking to you about this to be honest...

[Craig]

9 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

I'm a little concerned that you'd admit on here that the criminals are speaking to you about this to be honest...

Why? It's part of my job. It's concerning. 

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Craig said:

Why? It's part of my job. It's concerning. 

Sorry, I just thought you mixed with criminals - I didn't realise it was part of your job! 

 

 

[Craig]

Just now, Izzy Muzzett said:

Sorry, I just thought you mixed with criminals - I didn't realise it was part of your job! 

 

 

 not socially! Not intentionally anyway!

[Vacamion]

7 hours ago, Innovindil said:

Anyone know why violent crime is up in Scotland (compared to last year)?

 

 

If you mean gun and knife crime, there has been a well-reported turf war going on between large crime gangs in Glasgow for a while, now.

 

Otherwise, dunno...

 

 

[wasthedestroyer]

Police cuts but where the fvck do they all dissapear to after football?

alot of police forces have stopped being "pro-active" in fighting knife crime etc, as IMO they would rather focus resources on other tasks, which is silly.

[Guest MattP]

Always enough police at the football. I even watched a video of an on-duty copper proposing to their partner at gay pride the other week. 

 

Even before austerity I barely remember seeing a bobby on the beat, they seemed to vanish in the 90's - why we lost the desire for preventative policing I have no idea.

 

I'd imagine the cutdown in stop and search by Theresa May as home sec has had a serious effect though, terrible decision based on a false narrative of tolerance.

[Nick]

31 minutes ago, MattP said:

Always enough police at the football. I even watched a video of an on-duty copper proposing to their partner at gay pride the other week. 

 

Even before austerity I barely remember seeing a bobby on the beat, they seemed to vanish in the 90's - why we lost the desire for preventative policing I have no idea.

 

I'd imagine the cutdown in stop and search by Theresa May as home sec has had a serious effect though, terrible decision based on a false narrative of tolerance.

False narrative of tolerance?

 

 

 

Yeah because BAME groups deserved the S&S frequency and it in no way over the past 30 years has contributed to a disproportionate amount of the BAME population being in both the Community based CJS and the Secure Estate.

 

[Guest]

It is worrying. The UK are cutting numbers of policemen as well as many other public workers because their pay is too high for the country to afford. Reduce pay, increase numbers, reduce useless paperwork. Make the UK a better place to live.

[Nick]

Just now, FIF said:

It is worrying. The UK are cutting numbers of policemen as well as many other public workers because their pay is too high for the country to afford. Reduce pay, increase numbers, reduce useless paperwork. Make the UK a better place to live.

Reduce pay and increase numbers means less skilled operatives working with the most dangerous and highest risk individuals because profit focussed governance doesn't see expenditure on public services as essential - especially when there's profit to be made, tax to be generated and social control laws to be implemented  from criminals, vulnerable children, prisons, the elderly, healthcare.... I look at the cuts and austerity and view the workloads and funding of youth workers, probation officers, prison officers, youth justice officers and look at the levels and approaches to training and recruitment and am not in the slightest bit surprised about crime figures rising.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

Reduce pay and increase numbers means less skilled operatives working with the most dangerous and highest risk individuals because profit focussed governance doesn't see expenditure on public services as essential - especially when there's profit to be made, tax to be generated and social control laws to be implemented  from criminals, vulnerable children, prisons, the elderly, healthcare.... I look at the cuts and austerity and view the workloads and funding of youth workers, probation officers, prison officers, youth justice officers and look at the levels and approaches to training and recruitment and am not in the slightest bit surprised about crime figures rising.

 

I understand and agree with your view but the money just isn't going to be available. IMO Police do have high pay compared to other public workers and I'm not so sure that a reduction in pay will mean less skilled operatives in the police force. If it does then the problem is one of training not pay. I would reduce the paperwork that Police are asked to do so that they can be "on the job" more. Prison staff are a very different question and prisons are in a total shambles. The whole system of crime, justice and punishment needs to be reviewed and changed. There are many crimes where community service is far more relevant than prison which is totally wrong. Healthcare is also in a shambles, specialist hospital doctors IMO receive too much pay, hospital doctors have to work too many hours, nurses are underpaid. And I'm not sure what has happened to the generalist doctors in the community, things in France seem to work so well with them whereas in England it seems to have gone to pot. Healthcare definitely needs more money putting in otherwise major problems will arrive in the very near future. Maybe healthcare for all needs to be looked at and definitely some types of operations/healthcare need to be looked at.

[Jon the Hat]

The thing I find strange is that despite all the apparent efficiencies the Police are supposedly delivering, that the % of Police in front line roles is stable at 93% from 2009 to 2015.  Surely the idea is to be more efficient in back office and put more front line officers investigating crime?

[Nick]

Its a little too simple to lay this simply at the door of the Police.

 

It's the whole CJS system thats being underfunded - especially Social Care Services, Mental Health Services, Youth and Community Services, Drug and Alcohol Services, Prisons, Probation and Youth Justice - all of which are being screwed or closed year on year. 

 

These are the organisations who help prevent crime and work with offenders - the Police main remit is to catch criminals after the event - the prevention elements of their role is weighted more heavily on locking them up or getting them into the justice system... though I do acknowledge there are other preventative activities which the Police do a good job of engaging in.

[DB11]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

Always enough police at the football.

That's because it's a combination of all the police forces in the East Midlands.

[Nick]

Just now, DB11 said:

That's because it's a combination of all the police forces in the East Midlands.

And the clubs are billed heavily for it.

[Parafox]

1 hour ago, DB11 said:

That's because it's a combination of all the police forces in the East Midlands.

And is from a separate budget paid for by the clubs. And generally the police are on overtime.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Swan Lesta said:

Its a little too simple to lay this simply at the door of the Police.

 

It's the whole CJS system thats being underfunded - especially Social Care Services, Mental Health Services, Youth and Community Services, Drug and Alcohol Services, Prisons, Probation and Youth Justice - all of which are being screwed or closed year on year. 

 

These are the organisations who help prevent crime and work with offenders - the Police main remit is to catch criminals after the event - the prevention elements of their role is weighted more heavily on locking them up or getting them into the justice system... though I do acknowledge there are other preventative activities which the Police do a good job of engaging in.

 

Prevention starts at home and education. People are generally more selfish/self centred and kids are not taught to respect people and property.

 

Again I agree with you that the whole system is underfunded but without massive tax increases that's not going to change - and we're not going to get massive tax increases from any government. So we've got to make the same money go further. 

 

Western evolution has meant that more and more money is used in bueaurcratic ways that weigh down systems. We need to make the systems leaner to become more efficient. That may mean that some standards deteriorate but overall there will be an improvement.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, FIF said:

 

 

Western evolution has meant that more and more money is used in bueaurcratic ways that weigh down systems. We need to make the systems leaner to become more efficient. That may mean that some standards deteriorate but overall there will be an improvement.

No. After two decades working in these industries I've seen no evidence whatsoever of improvement derived from lesser qualified people spending less time with vulnerable members of society.

 

Its quite simple really, in that when practitioners have time to work with people on a daily basis and support them their risk of offending/re-offending goes down ridiculously as they have support, services, activities and opportunities. Now a quick hello once a week and a reduction in contact hours and opportunities for offenders means its all becoming very difficult for people to change. 

 

In fact services have to be paid for and the money found because it costs ridiculously more to imprison, police and surveil than it does to rehabilitate. We need to start working with individuals from a needs based welfare perspective rather than a deed based risk and justice model as well. There's only approximately 10% of the current prison population that actually needs to be there in relation to dangerousness and public protection - there are other and far more effective ways of punishment in the restriction of liberties and money spent in other ways that actually create meaningful opportunities and scope for people to alter their self narratives.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Swan Lesta said:

No. After two decades working in these industries I've seen no evidence whatsoever of improvement derived from lesser qualified people spending less time with vulnerable members of society.

 

Its quite simple really, in that when practitioners have time to work with people on a daily basis and support them their risk of offending/re-offending goes down ridiculously as they have support, services, activities and opportunities. Now a quick hello once a week and a reduction in contact hours and opportunities for offenders means its all becoming very difficult for people to change. 

 

In fact services have to be paid for and the money found because it costs ridiculously more to imprison, police and surveil than it does to rehabilitate. We need to start working with individuals from a needs based welfare perspective rather than a deed based risk and justice model as well. There's only approximately 10% of the current prison population that actually needs to be there in relation to dangerousness and public protection - there are other and far more effective ways of punishment in the restriction of liberties and money spent in other ways that actually create meaningful opportunities and scope for people to alter their self narratives.

You're the professional so I accept what you say.

 

I wasn't saying less qualified people though. I was saying the same people with less bureaucracy or more contentiously the same people with lower salary.

 

If I understand correctly the starting salary for a policeman is about £20k and after only 7 years £37k that's a lot of money from the government pot.

 

We need to look at the whole idea of imprisonment as it is ridculously expensive and incredibly inefficient. I like to think that I'm generally a liberal thinker but I do realise my beliefs on crime and punishment are more right wing than my general left of centre beliefs and probably more right wing than your beliefs which I normally agree with completely. There are a broad range of alternatives that need to be looked at and discussed seriously and soon.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, FIF said:

You're the professional so I accept what you say.

 

I wasn't saying less qualified people though. I was saying the same people with less bureaucracy or more contentiously the same people with lower salary.

 

If I understand correctly the starting salary for a policeman is about £20k and after only 7 years £37k that's a lot of money from the government pot.

 

We need to look at the whole idea of imprisonment as it is ridculously expensive and incredibly inefficient. I like to think that I'm generally a liberal thinker but I do realise my beliefs on crime and punishment are more right wing than my general left of centre beliefs and probably more right wing than your beliefs which I normally agree with completely. There are a broad range of alternatives that need to be looked at and discussed seriously and soon.

Sure - the less qualified thing comes from lowering pay and responsibilities, (I'm not especially referring to Police here - moreover other CJS related workers) - this means that that in turn the level of study in relation to the professionalisation of the occupation is reduced - and before you know it the standards of becoming a professional social worker, teacher, police officer or probation officer peak at GCSE... rather than at certificate level 4, diploma level 5, undergrad degree level 6, masters L7 or doctoral L8 etc...