Technology, Science and the Environment.

[dsr-burnley]

5 hours ago, marbles said:

I think the point was that people who are barely surviving, only think of immediate survival and not what the future holds.

If they didn’t feel like they may starve or be homeless tomorrow, they would think about the future.

The “need” referenced was basic necessities.  Food, shelter, clothing.

If I can find the article again, I’ll post the link.

 

 

You got me curious - where in the US are you visiting?

The number of people without the basic necessities is relatively tiny.  About 98.5% of the population did not use a foodbank last year, for example.  Adding another 1.5% to their number isn't going to make much difference in our collective views of the future.

 

Milwaukee.  Go Brewers!  If I want to watch baseball, I have to fly.

[leicsmac]

6 hours ago, dsr-burnley said:

Makes very little sense, sadly.  It's a logical construct that takes no account of the idea that people aren't logical.

 

Who defines "need"?  There are people using food banks today who have vastly more possessions than the average person had 50 years ago, but they haven't got what they feel they need.  "Needs" change as more money is available and as more things become affordable.  Do we (not the food bank people, but the rather better off with no particular money worries) "need" cars, mobile phones, 100-channel TVs, central heating, 24-hour internet access, alcohol?  No.  But try and tell people that they don't need it and it will be taken away, they won't agree.

 

I don't need to fly to the USA, but I'm going to.  You can't stop that by giving me what I need.  I already have what I need, and I want to spend extra on fun.

Can I ask what you're driving at here in terms of the conversation above (people viewing short term economic concerns above longer term environmental ones), as I'm not entirely sure what it has to do with it?

[Free Falling Foxes]

Solar Eclipse in Australia

I've seen several partial eclipses but to witness a full one must be great.

[dsr-burnley]

7 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Can I ask what you're driving at here in terms of the conversation above (people viewing short term economic concerns above longer term environmental ones), as I'm not entirely sure what it has to do with it?

There was a suggestion earlier on that when people are given what they need (undefined), they will be significantly more inclined to act to prevent long term damage by global warming.  My belief is that that will make little difference, because IMO people need to have a lot more than needs before they will damage their own present lifestyle for future uncertain global benefits.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, dsr-burnley said:

There was a suggestion earlier on that when people are given what they need (undefined), they will be significantly more inclined to act to prevent long term damage by global warming.  My belief is that that will make little difference, because IMO people need to have a lot more than needs before they will damage their own present lifestyle for future uncertain global benefits.

Thanks for the clarification, definitely see where you're coming from now.

 

Unfortunately I agree to an extent, given the evidence we have. What it means is that we have to have an effective way of conceiving and effecting long term plans on this matter regardless of that. Otherwise the road leads nowhere good. And it leads there soon.

[stripeyfox]

1 hour ago, Free Falling Foxes said:

Solar Eclipse in Australia

I've seen several partial eclipses but to witness a full one must be great.

yeah me too. There is one due across the US next April. Would love to go, but big risk of spending all that time and effort and it be cloudy on the day!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_eclipse_of_April_8,_2024

Edited 20 April 2023 by stripeyfox

[leicsmac]

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65317469

 

"An international group of scientists who work with satellite data say the acceleration in the melting of Earth's ice sheets is now unmistakable.

 

They calculate the planet's frozen poles lost 7,560 billion tonnes in mass between 1992 and 2022.

 

Seven of the worst melting years have occurred in the past decade.

 

Mass loss from Greenland and Antarctica is now responsible for a quarter of all sea-level rise.

This contribution is five times what it was 30 years ago."

 

Well, that's not good, is it?

Edited 20 April 2023 by leicsmac

[Daggers]

25 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65317469

 

"An international group of scientists who work with satellite data say the acceleration in the melting of Earth's ice sheets is now unmistakable.

 

They calculate the planet's frozen poles lost 7,560 billion tonnes in mass between 1992 and 2022.

 

Seven of the worst melting years have occurred in the past decade.

 

Mass loss from Greenland and Antarctica is now responsible for a quarter of all sea-level rise.

This contribution is five times what it was 30 years ago."

 

Well, that's not good, is it?

yEh BuT tHeReS bEeN tEmP cHaNgEs BeFoRe…

[leicsmac]

Just now, Daggers said:

yEh BuT tHeReS bEeN tEmP cHaNgEs BeFoRe…

Or CO2 is plant food.

Or it's all just solar activity.

Or it won't be that bad.

Or we can adapt and it doesn't matter if it costs a few people.

Or there isn't a scientific consensus.

Or the measuring methodology isn't reliable.

 

Yeah, those beholden to the status quo who don't care about the future have a laundry list of BS "justifications" they try to use for it.

[grobyfox1990]

9 minutes ago, Daggers said:

yEh BuT tHeReS bEeN tEmP cHaNgEs BeFoRe…

Haha kudos for the capital/non-capital letters takedown, that is proper. People think I am being flippant when I say it, but I'm not, those who think climate risk will not affect their lifestyle or is as yet undefined will eventually be Darwin'd out, that's fine, let em die.

[leicsmac]

5 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Haha kudos for the capital/non-capital letters takedown, that is proper. People think I am being flippant when I say it, but I'm not, those who think climate risk will not affect their lifestyle or is as yet undefined will eventually be Darwin'd out, that's fine, let em die.

That would be fine if there weren't countless other people along for the ride.

 

But there is and they are. It won't be just the ignorant or the self interested who get Darwin'd.

Edited 20 April 2023 by leicsmac

[grobyfox1990]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That would be fine if there weren't countless other people along for the ride.

 

But there is and they are. It won't be just the ignorant or the self interested who get Darwin'd.

The damage the lazy and stupid cause won't translate to the wider world. Population consensus in the first world (i.e. power nations) is  environmentally focused, given we tell people what to do, the rest of the world will have to follow us. Anyway, we shall see, I think we both hope I am right!!!

Edited 20 April 2023 by grobyfox1990
predictive text typo

[leicsmac]

46 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

The damage the lazy and stupid cause won't translate to the wider world. Population consensus in the first world (i.e. power nations) is  environmentally focused, given we tell people what to do, the rest of the world will have to follow us. Anyway, we shall see, I think we both hope I am right!!!

I hope you're right, but honestly I can't see many scientific reasons why you would be.

 

The increasing temperatures and their effects are pretty clear, and when the bigger consequences for those hit, it really won't be just the lazy and ignorant picking up the tab, due to the sheer scale of them.

 

But there is still time to avert the worst effects. We simply need to do more as an entire species - or as much collaborative effort as possible, anyway.

[leicsmac]

In other news, Spacex Starship currently being fueled for the next launch attempt, in roughly one hour.

[yorkie1999]

2 hours ago, leicsmac said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-65317469

 

"An international group of scientists who work with satellite data say the acceleration in the melting of Earth's ice sheets is now unmistakable.

 

They calculate the planet's frozen poles lost 7,560 billion tonnes in mass between 1992 and 2022.

 

Seven of the worst melting years have occurred in the past decade.

 

Mass loss from Greenland and Antarctica is now responsible for a quarter of all sea-level rise.

This contribution is five times what it was 30 years ago."

 

Well, that's not good, is it?

Unfortuneatly it cannot be stopped or reversed and it will keep accelerating as the volume of ice reduces.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

Unfortuneatly it cannot be stopped or reversed and it will keep accelerating as the volume of ice reduces.

I don't think that's true - at the very least, it can be slowed down.

 

And if it can't...well, the OECD countries had better get on with giving every equatorial nation the tools they need to withstand the consequences, or open their doors to all of them, or both - or be responsible for a level of death and suffering that would make every single war ever fought seem small.

[stripeyfox]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I don't think that's true - at the very least, it can be slowed down.

 

And if it can't...well, the OECD countries had better get on with giving every equatorial nation the tools they need to withstand the consequences, or open their doors to all of them, or both - or be responsible for a level of death and suffering that would make every single war ever fought seem small.

you're a smart guy mac - do you think there is an positivity for the future? I wonder if there will come a point where big businesses and global players will see they can "monetize" the clean up/reversal of climate change and then it will swing into action (although maybe too late)?

 

[SpacedX]

25 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

In other news, Spacex Starship currently being fueled for the next launch attempt, in roughly one hour.

Watching live now. Assuming it launches going to miss this - a meeting that I can't get out of this time. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, stripeyfox said:

you're a smart guy mac - do you think there is an positivity for the future? I wonder if there will come a point where big businesses and global players will see they can "monetize" the clean up/reversal of climate change and then it will swing into action (although maybe too late)?

 

I absolutely do think there's positivity there - I think we have the capability to limit warming to a degree where the consequences would be at least manageable, and there does seem to be a shift in economic terms as those you talk about who want to make bank doing it all are paying attention and gradually getting involved.

 

But it's not enough, fast enough, right now, and that's a matter of further will.

[grobyfox1990]

4 minutes ago, stripeyfox said:

you're a smart guy mac - do you think there is an positivity for the future? I wonder if there will come a point where big businesses and global players will see they can "monetize" the clean up/reversal of climate change and then it will swing into action (although maybe too late)?

 

Big companies are already monetising this, at quite a clip. Climate change as it stands is irreversible, slowing it down and building resilience against it is highly profitable.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Big companies are already monetising this, at quite a clip. Climate change as it stands is irreversible, slowing it down and building resilience against it is highly profitable.

That's about right, really - all we can do is slow it down, prevent its worst excesses, and try to build defences against those we can't stop.

 

But we're not even really slowing it down right now, much less thinking about dedicated and comprehensive resilience programs that will actually save a lot of lives rather than just a few, and more is needed - and we are capable of it.

[leicsmac]

Countdown hold at T-40 seconds, final checks underway...

[SpacedX]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

In other news, Spacex Starship currently being fueled for the next launch attempt, in roughly one hour.

Hold. Damn! would have just caught it before this meeting starts. 

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Line-X said:

Hold. Damn! would have just caught it before this meeting starts. 

Hold released!

 

Here we go...

[leicsmac]

Cleared the tower and away!