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davieG

Technology, Science and the Environment.

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21 hours ago, leicsmac said:

And one more:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/07/bolsonaro-amazon-deforestation-exploded-july-data

 

I actually loathe this man more than Trump as his government actually has the realistic potential to do more damage to the Earth than Trump's administration might, and he is an utterly unrepentant cvnt about all of it.

Why at this time of ecological catastrophe is the world ruled by such a bunch of arseholes?

 

My worry is that as things get worse desperate people will vote in ever more dangerous anti-scientific leaders who are prepared to destroy what’s left of the environment to kick the can do the road for a short time longer rather than upsetting the status quo. This is equivalent of a once wealthy household burning the furniture to keep warm after falling into poverty.

 

If ecological problems can’t be addressed now, it seems even less likely that they will be addressed in the future. Much more likely that natural and human forces such as famine, war, drought, etc will take over.

Edited by WigstonWanderer
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3 hours ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Why at this time of ecological catastrophe is the world ruled by such a bunch of arseholes?

 

My worry is that as things get worse desperate people will vote in ever more dangerous anti-scientific leaders who are prepared to destroy what’s left of the environment to kick the can do the road for a short time longer rather than upsetting the status quo. This is equivalent of a once wealthy household burning the furniture to keep warm after falling into poverty.

 

If ecological problems can’t be addressed now, it seems even less likely that they will be addressed in the future. Much more likely that natural and human forces such as famine, war, drought, etc will take over.

That's a perfectly logical worry, tbh. The human instinct to survive and protect oneself and those immediately in their own line of sight is, in times of crisis, in direct conflict with long term survival or the species.

 

We still have control over the situation for the time being and while there is an extreme amount of denial about the situation by those in power, there will (hopefully) still be time once they are gone. But the clock is ticking and quite frankly once the first highly populated set of countries (think big parts of sub-Saharan Africa, lots of Latin America, parts of Central Asia and possibly Australia too) begin to have serious food and water shortages then all bets are off - after that, it's just a matter of seeing what the body count will be when it's all over, if there's anyone left to count.

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5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Again seems like a plan by Bolsano to allow these fires to happen to further commercialise the rainforest.

 

There's a global corporate takeover happening right before our eyes and very little being done about it. 

 

As this progresses I can see it developing into civil wars between the people Vs corporation backed governments who are only looking after corporate interests.

 

Just look at what is happening in the UK and Brazil and the USA.  The longer this goes on something has to give. 

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I'm hoping that these here Amazon fires actually end up being good news. It could be genuinely terrible if it creates a negative feedback loop but the attention it's receiving and the fact its tangible and observable is a positive, which might help spur some action. 


Granted we need to wait at least a year for someone else to be in the White House but hopefully it will wake leaders up to the fact that they can't just take actions within their own borders and make flimsy multilateral promises but that they have to do far more across borders with nations that hold jurisdiction over environmental public goods. Of course its doubtful when we're relying on Macron to lead the way on solutions. 

 

Far more useful call than a kid on a boat in the Atlantic. Maybe Elton John could help start a fund for Brazilian farmers. 

Edited by Kopfkino
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49 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

I'm hoping that these here Amazon fires actually end up being good news. It could be genuinely terrible if it creates a negative feedback loop but the attention it's receiving and the fact its tangible and observable is a positive, which might help spur some action. 


Granted we need to wait at least a year for someone else to be in the White House but hopefully it will wake leaders up to the fact that they can't just take actions within their own borders and make flimsy multilateral promises but that they have to do far more across borders with nations that hold jurisdiction over environmental public goods. Of course its doubtful when we're relying on Macron to lead the way on solutions. 

 

Far more useful call than a kid on a boat in the Atlantic. Maybe Elton John could help start a fund for Brazilian farmers. 

I guess it goes to show that people do need to see something tangible - the problem with that in this particular situation though is that by the time it's tangible a lot, most or even all of the damage has already been done and you're into damage limitation territory, which is hardly ideal. Is it not possible for humans to have enough about themselves to act proactively rather than retroactively on stuff like this? Guess I'm hoping for too much there - to say nothing of the league of Bullshitaro supporters still out there online saying that there's nothing to worry about even with the photographic and scientific evidence.

 

Definitely agree there has to be more actual action and more done - it's going to be tricky to convince hardcore nationalists that what they do when it comes to stuff like this harms the entire world and eventually themselves too, though, muh sovrentee and all that.

 

Also think that Miss Thunberg has done her bit to raise awareness of the situation, same way that these photos did - whether her style of doing so is to peoples liking or not is purely in the eye of the beholder and that does have an effect on the effectiveness of the message, but that's down to the beholder, not the message itself - so I'm not sure why the little dig was warranted.

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6 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

I'm hoping that these here Amazon fires actually end up being good news. It could be genuinely terrible if it creates a negative feedback loop but the attention it's receiving and the fact its tangible and observable is a positive, which might help spur some action. 


Granted we need to wait at least a year for someone else to be in the White House but hopefully it will wake leaders up to the fact that they can't just take actions within their own borders and make flimsy multilateral promises but that they have to do far more across borders with nations that hold jurisdiction over environmental public goods. Of course its doubtful when we're relying on Macron to lead the way on solutions. 

 

Far more useful call than a kid on a boat in the Atlantic. Maybe Elton John could help start a fund for Brazilian farmers. 

The kid in the boat is doing far more than you, me or probably anyone else in this forum.

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9 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I guess it goes to show that people do need to see something tangible - the problem with that in this particular situation though is that by the time it's tangible a lot, most or even all of the damage has already been done and you're into damage limitation territory, which is hardly ideal. Is it not possible for humans to have enough about themselves to act proactively rather than retroactively on stuff like this? Guess I'm hoping for too much there - to say nothing of the league of Bullshitaro supporters still out there online saying that there's nothing to worry about even with the photographic and scientific evidence.

 

Definitely agree there has to be more actual action and more done - it's going to be tricky to convince hardcore nationalists that what they do when it comes to stuff like this harms the entire world and eventually themselves too, though, muh sovrentee and all that.

 

Also think that Miss Thunberg has done her bit to raise awareness of the situation, same way that these photos did - whether her style of doing so is to peoples liking or not is purely in the eye of the beholder and that does have an effect on the effectiveness of the message, but that's down to the beholder, not the message itself - so I'm not sure why the little dig was warranted.

 

Because being proactive is hard I guess, it costs more than not doing anything in the short-term whilst everything is relatively fine. People just expected that Brazil would protect these areas for our good/there'd never be enough damage to matter. Only now once that idea is in open conflict with the democratic politics of Brazil with fire is so damn obvious to the eye, and that it holds a great innate fear in any creature, do people pay attention. Of course I suspect the reaction at this point will be no greater than waving fists at Brazil rather than what's needed as we discussed the other week. 

 

She preaches to the converted, her vapid solution-less speeches achieve next to nothing but lip service. She's some rich people's toy and I'm confident in saying her PR has no discernible effect. I'd rather coverage be given to people with actual solutions, like the people feeding seaweed to cows, rather than someone just cos they're young. So I think it's entirely warranted to say that pictures of actual damage are far more useful than some monotone speech in an important building.

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I have a question. Are people, and I mean posters here on foxes talk not people as in the wider population, actually scared enough yet to take action? And if not, why not? I don't mean that in an accusatory way it's more genuine interest, because I think there's a big disconnect at the moment and its needs to be understood if it's going to be overcome. I feel like a lot of people have intellectually accepted the climate crisis and you hear matter-of-fact talk about the coming effects of it in the media, but on mass people seem more willing to basically ignore the problem. Has anyone made big or small changes in their lives yet because of climate change? And if not at what point could you see yourselves doing so?

Edited by what?
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13 minutes ago, what? said:

I have a question. Are people, and I mean posters here on foxes talk not people as in the wider population, actually scared enough yet to take action? And if not, why not? I don't mean that in an accusatory way it's more genuine interest, because I think there's a big disconnect at the moment and its needs to be understood if it's going to be overcome. I feel like a lot of people have intellectually accepted the climate crisis and you hear matter-of-fact talk about the coming effects of it in the media, but on mass people seem more willing to basically ignore the problem. Has anyone made big or small changes in their lives yet because of climate change? And if not at what point could you see yourselves doing so?

 

There is nothing effective an individual can do. 

 

What’s required is a movement to overthrow the right-wing elites that rule the world, by any means necessary. 

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2 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

There is nothing effective an individual can do. 

 

What’s required is a movement to overthrow the right-wing elites that rule the world, by any means necessary. 

I totally agree but the point is that such a movement ain't going to just happen without those ordinary individuals like you and me taking part in it. I think it's really interesting because I know loads of people who would answer the same way you did and who really believe that is basically the only chance we've got. But when the question following is - so what are we doing to hasten that movement and make it happen? There's no answer. Now I'm no better, I'm not some militant activist ready to lay down my life yet but if the only hope we have is mobilising large parts of the population to actually affect change, then we have to figure out what the tipping point is at which they're willing to actually take part.  

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28 minutes ago, what? said:

I totally agree but the point is that such a movement ain't going to just happen without those ordinary individuals like you and me taking part in it. I think it's really interesting because I know loads of people who would answer the same way you did and who really believe that is basically the only chance we've got. But when the question following is - so what are we doing to hasten that movement and make it happen? There's no answer. Now I'm no better, I'm not some militant activist ready to lay down my life yet but if the only hope we have is mobilising large parts of the population to actually affect change, then we have to figure out what the tipping point is at which they're willing to actually take part.  

 

The difficulty we face is that the 1% control the means of propaganda - just look at the hatchet job they’ve done on Greta Thunberg. 

 

We need a leader who we can rally around. 

Edited by Buce
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10 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

The difficulty we face is that the 1% control the means of propaganda - just look at the hatchet job on Greta Thunberg. 

 

We need a leader who we can rally around. 

I mean a leader would be great but in the absence of one, and especially in the media landscape you describe, we can't just wait around. It's going to require a global solution so leadership will need to come from all levels, nationally, right down to local community organising. Idk, I don't really have any answers and I myself am searching for stuff I can get involved in but I just wanted to spur people on a bit because it's going to take everyone and it's just weird how we all know the situation is ****ed but we're all collectively just sitting on our hands waiting for something to happen.

 

10 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

We need to vote in the green party and take the rough with the not so rough if we really want to save the planet.

Oh god don't do that lol they've got even less answers than me!

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3 minutes ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

We need to vote in the green party and take the rough with the not so rough if we really want to save the planet.

We may be able to save Britain, but not the planet. Apart from a few European countries, no one else gives a fvck. Go on google earth and take a look at some of the cities round the world, there's rubbish everywhere. Go and have a look at the small fishing towns in greenland, they've got trash lying around in the streets ready to wash into the sea, and that's a country where everyone's moaning about the glaciers melting. I's all political lip service.

  Here's a  of a couple of rivers in india, and they've got a ban on plastics! . How is darling little Greta going to sort that lot out? 

 

weqxweg3cbyz.jpg

delhi-garbage-afp_625x300_1528103488082.jpg

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2 hours ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Because being proactive is hard I guess, it costs more than not doing anything in the short-term whilst everything is relatively fine. People just expected that Brazil would protect these areas for our good/there'd never be enough damage to matter. Only now once that idea is in open conflict with the democratic politics of Brazil with fire is so damn obvious to the eye, and that it holds a great innate fear in any creature, do people pay attention. Of course I suspect the reaction at this point will be no greater than waving fists at Brazil rather than what's needed as we discussed the other week. 

 

She preaches to the converted, her vapid solution-less speeches achieve next to nothing but lip service. She's some rich people's toy and I'm confident in saying her PR has no discernible effect. I'd rather coverage be given to people with actual solutions, like the people feeding seaweed to cows, rather than someone just cos they're young. So I think it's entirely warranted to say that pictures of actual damage are far more useful than some monotone speech in an important building.

I fear you may be right about the bolded part there, but we shall see. Personally I'd see pretty strong action as warranted, but that's largely driven by my personal dislike for the man in charge - he's basically a Brazilian Looten Plunder who got elected.

 

WRT Miss Thunberg, I'm of the opinion that she preaches to everyone but some people simply don't want to hear the necessary solutions, but I think we're going to have to disagree on the amount of usefulness she represents.

 

58 minutes ago, what? said:

I have a question. Are people, and I mean posters here on foxes talk not people as in the wider population, actually scared enough yet to take action? And if not, why not? I don't mean that in an accusatory way it's more genuine interest, because I think there's a big disconnect at the moment and its needs to be understood if it's going to be overcome. I feel like a lot of people have intellectually accepted the climate crisis and you hear matter-of-fact talk about the coming effects of it in the media, but on mass people seem more willing to basically ignore the problem. Has anyone made big or small changes in their lives yet because of climate change? And if not at what point could you see yourselves doing so?

The problem here is that you're asking people to face, what is to them right now, an abstract problem - pretty much what me and Kopf were referring to above.

 

When people actually start dying or migrating en masse in various corners of the Earth, at that point people might actually start doing things, but of course by that point the best you can hope for is damage and casualty limitation.

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2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

There is nothing effective an individual can do. 

 

What’s required is a movement to overthrow the right-wing elites that rule the world, by any means necessary. 

Can’t see anything like that happening. The modern “left” is too busy creating identity politics division, pitching one group against another. The old left was about creating a broader opposition to the elite.

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1 hour ago, yorkie1999 said:

We may be able to save Britain, but not the planet. Apart from a few European countries, no one else gives a fvck. Go on google earth and take a look at some of the cities round the world, there's rubbish everywhere. Go and have a look at the small fishing towns in greenland, they've got trash lying around in the streets ready to wash into the sea, and that's a country where everyone's moaning about the glaciers melting. I's all political lip service.

  Here's a  of a couple of rivers in india, and they've got a ban on plastics! . How is darling little Greta going to sort that lot out? 

 

weqxweg3cbyz.jpg

delhi-garbage-afp_625x300_1528103488082.jpg

Jesus! Is does make you despair and simply conclude that humanity is a plague on the natural world.

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23 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Can’t see anything like that happening. The modern “left” is too busy creating identity politics division, pitching one group against another. The old left was about creating a broader opposition to the elite.

I'm not sure that's something unique to the left, in fact I'd go as far as arguing that the current state of world politics has a lot to do with how effectively right wingers have deployed id politics.

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Just now, WigstonWanderer said:

Jesus! Is does make you despair and simply conclude that humanity is a plague on the natural world.

I don't know what the answer is, all i know is the river thames, severn, trent, soar etc don't look like that and never have done, so why are all the worlds leaders and all the anti pollution activists and all the media targeting the western world and telling us to clean up our acts and stop driving cars yakaty yak when the people who are responsible for most of the planets current destruction are not the slightest bit interested and there's nothing anyone can do to make them interested. Guess which beach is in the Dominican republic and which is skeggy!

 

e49b3a25-3c7c-44f1-93da-407023ef1b4e-large16x9_Capture.jpg

ccimage-shutterstock_726374947.jpg

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2 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I don't know what the answer is, all i know is the river thames, severn, trent, soar etc don't look like that and never have done, so why are all the worlds leaders and all the anti pollution activists and all the media targeting the western world and telling us to clean up our acts and stop driving cars yakaty yak when the people who are responsible for most of the planets current destruction are not the slightest bit interested and there's nothing anyone can do to make them interested. Guess which beach is in the Dominican republic and which is skeggy!

 

e49b3a25-3c7c-44f1-93da-407023ef1b4e-large16x9_Capture.jpg

ccimage-shutterstock_726374947.jpg

 

Do you think that rubbish on the DR beach actually comes from there? Most of that junk will have been jettisoned at sea and washed there on the tide. There are virgin atolls in the Pacific that look just like that. It

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18 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Do you think that rubbish on the DR beach actually comes from there? Most of that junk will have been jettisoned at sea and washed there on the tide. There are virgin atolls in the Pacific that look just like that. It

Excuses, excuses. Show me one beach around the uk which is like that, and take into consideration we are also an island and are subject to tides.

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38 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

I don't know what the answer is, all i know is the river thames, severn, trent, soar etc don't look like that and never have done, so why are all the worlds leaders and all the anti pollution activists and all the media targeting the western world and telling us to clean up our acts and stop driving cars yakaty yak when the people who are responsible for most of the planets current destruction are not the slightest bit interested and there's nothing anyone can do to make them interested. Guess which beach is in the Dominican republic and which is skeggy!

 

e49b3a25-3c7c-44f1-93da-407023ef1b4e-large16x9_Capture.jpg

ccimage-shutterstock_726374947.jpg

Most likely cos we give it to someone else to chuck in the sea

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20 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Excuses, excuses. Show me one beach around the uk which is like that, and take into consideration we are also an island and are subject to tides.

 

It's really not that simple - it's more to do with ocean currents than tides, and where the rubbish is dumped. And it's worth remembering that our clean beaches are a comparitively recent phenomenon because of EU legislation. It's not many years ago that we were pumping raw sewage into the sea and our beaches were covered in sanitary products and condoms.

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