Julian Joachim Jr Shabadoo Posted 22 August 2017 Share Posted 22 August 2017 I'd definitely include: The Clash - The Clash (US release) Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Veg The Ruts - The Crack Ramones - Rocket to Russia Black Flag - Damaged 5 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Iol sorry, never really been a NOFX fan. Their early stuff was musically alright but I've always found Fat Mike's voice intensely annoying. Flab Mike's voice is irritating as fvck. The only song I can hear past it is Dinosaurs Will Die, which is great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 22 August 2017 Share Posted 22 August 2017 The best ever opening 20 seconds to a show i've ever seen was Dropkick Murphys at Rock City about 5 years ago... Went with my mrs and my cousin, they opened with The State of Massachusetts, and the second the little banjo solo finished and the music really kicked in, i'd been separated from them. The mrs got scared and found her way to the bar, and i found my cousin at the end of the show with a dislocated elbow. Crowd was insane and so were the band. Also, are we strictly talking about punk? or can i push my love for ska punk on you all in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 22 August 2017 Share Posted 22 August 2017 But define "relevant", what exactly does that mean? Having a lasting legacy? You don't think there are bands emerging now that weren't inspired by a youth of listening to Pennywise or Social Distortion? Of the bands I named, DKM, AFI, Rancid and Leftover Crack especially all very much pioneered their own sound. You'd have a very hard time convincing me that anyone who came before them sounded particularly similar (in the way that Greenday are just an SLF tribute band.) Sure, Dropkick Murphys were clearly influenced by The Pogues and Gang Green, AFI were clearly influenced by the Misfits and TSOL but to suggest each didn't claw out their own distinctive corner of the genre and produce something genuinely unique would be overly simplistic and derisory to say the least. What more do you need to be relevant? If you need to be a major cultural icon to be relevant then there's probably only about five punk bands in total that meet the criteria and half of those are only on the list for their legacy because their sound was by and large crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 22 August 2017 Author Share Posted 22 August 2017 16 minutes ago, Finnegan said: But define "relevant", what exactly does that mean? Having a lasting legacy? You don't think there are bands emerging now that weren't inspired by a youth of listening to Pennywise or Social Distortion? Of the bands I named, DKM, AFI, Rancid and Leftover Crack especially all very much pioneered their own sound. You'd have a very hard time convincing me that anyone who came before them sounded particularly similar (in the way that Greenday are just an SLF tribute band.) Sure, Dropkick Murphys were clearly influenced by The Pogues and Gang Green, AFI were clearly influenced by the Misfits and TSOL but to suggest each didn't claw out their own distinctive corner of the genre and produce something genuinely unique would be overly simplistic and derisory to say the least. What more do you need to be relevant? If you need to be a major cultural icon to be relevant then there's probably only about five punk bands in total that meet the criteria and half of those are only on the list for their legacy because their sound was by and large crap. "But define "relevant", what exactly does that mean?" In this case to punk as it was originally conceived - as opposed to being part of the original first or second wave or post punk movement the bands you mention as you say carved out their own sub genres - and no that does not mean that they are not legitimate, just for the large part bands that I would not regard as 'definitive'. I included Rancid because the first album drew on this spirit - and should have also added Bad Religion because in the US they effectively bridged old and new. Moreover, "relevant" is as much a subjective appraisal. We all ascribe our own interpretations to music and as you say, categorisation aside, it is a personal medium evoking experiences and memories. Dropkick Murphy's - I agree, great band, but I wouldn't regard them as definitive punk. "If you need to be a major cultural icon to be relevant" Who mentioned that? I wouldn't regard Wayne County or Stiv Bators for example as major cultural icons, but they were very much relevant to U.S. punk. "only about five punk bands in total that meet the criteria and half of those are only on the list for their legacy because their sound was by and large crap." I didn't state that criteria, you did. Other than the Pistols, you perhaps need to state which ones and why. "Crap" because it isn't the slik and polished production you're used to? Listen to the first Damned album. It was recorded in a couple of days in a broom cupboard in Islington - but it captures precisely where they were coming from and the raw energy is ****ing brilliant. And your point earlier about missing the point was? I hate being told it was a 70s movement. I hate being told it's dead. I hate hearing that 90s, 00s, bands don't deserve the same legitimacy. They do, but some of them are not what I would personally regard as punk - but as I said, that's in part subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 22 August 2017 Author Share Posted 22 August 2017 1 hour ago, Finnegan said: I love a good debate That was the purpose of this thread - and it turned out better that I had anticipated. Because really, we can never absolutely agree on the definitive. Those are my choices that's all. You may well be right, trying to over analyse something as vacuous by design as the original punk movement is rather pointless. It happened faster than it could be controlled, it was a spontaneous glorious pent up cumshot - that splattered the sanitised music industry and left its stain. I found much of what followed flaccid, impotent - and yes, at times artistically irrelevant in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 22 August 2017 Share Posted 22 August 2017 How can you conclude that I think crap = not polished when I'm championing early Agnostic Front, Black Flag and Minor Threat. It's not about production values it's just about what I like. I love a great garage, street, trashy sound. But I also like it to have some balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 22 August 2017 Author Share Posted 22 August 2017 3 minutes ago, Finnegan said: How can you conclude that I think crap = not polished when I'm championing early Agnostic Front, Black Flag and Minor Threat. It's not about production values it's just about what I like. I love a great garage, street, trashy sound. But I also like it to have some balls. Because you referred to "crap sound" which I took to mean as production. Apologies if I misconstrued your meaning...which was? As far as I am aware, you never mentioned Black Flag - if you had, I would have thoroughly concurred. I'm even more interested in what you mean by "crap sound" then...particularly since you also "championed" the DKs. I'm guessing you never saw them live. I wanted to put "Fresh Fruit.." in my list but Jello Biafra has always irked me. "it's just about what I like." Which is precisely the point I was making in my previous posts - and fair play to you, that's what counts. "But I also like it to have some balls." Which hardcore certainly has...but to suggest that "Never Mind..." doesn't would be frankly bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Thrower Posted 22 August 2017 Share Posted 22 August 2017 6 hours ago, Finnegan said: Fresh Fruit and Damaged really should have made the top ten. The lack of Agnostic Front, Minor Threat and Bad Religion in the honourable mentions is also upsetting. But, yknow, you're a seventies guy. It figures! You have good taste Sir! Grew up on early NY (& Boston) Hardcore here. Still the best to this day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 23 August 2017 Author Share Posted 23 August 2017 On 22/08/2017 at 09:03, RumbleFox said: Currently listening to Rise by PiL (OK, not quite punk but still great). Agree - Lydon has his detractors but I have tremendous respect for him forming PiL out of the car crash that the Pistols became. McClaren was a manipulative ****er with a massively over inflated sense of his own capabilities and worth. After the Pistols self destructed in San Francisco, Lydon was stranded penniless in LA. McClaren issued express instructions not to release any money to him - he had to phone the Virgin office in London and get Branson to pay for his air ticket home. Being back in London and broke it would have been so easy to cash in and form a Pistols Mk.II but instead PiL charted new territory and ended up spearheading the vanguard of the post punk movement. In fact in the absence of a deal, Lydon claims the butter ads were purely a means to get Public Image on the road again - and fair play to him...punk had become a parody of itself decades before, irrespective of John Lydon. Loved his comment at the end of 'Did You no Wrong" at Brixton in 2007... "Album/CD/Cassette" is an excellent piece of work - (and I love Rise) - the album has some insane playing on by Steve Vai (listen to the end of Ease). Although much of the other 80s Pil is a bit shite the first two albums, Public Image Limited and Metal Box with Jah Wobble and Keith Levene are masterful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket-Ron Posted 23 August 2017 Share Posted 23 August 2017 https://www.gigantic.com/wire-dryden-street-social-2017-11-02-19-00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 25 August 2017 Share Posted 25 August 2017 On 22/08/2017 at 11:22, TiffToff88 said: Also, are we strictly talking about punk? or can i push my love for ska punk on you all in here? Whatever DID happen to Suburban Rhythm?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chico1958 Posted 26 August 2017 Share Posted 26 August 2017 I did really like the The Damned and I have plans to see them in Cardiff in Feb. Only a few of the above stood the test of time.............. You decide Just to prove guitar solo's were done in 77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisNedry Posted 26 August 2017 Share Posted 26 August 2017 On 21/08/2017 at 22:41, Line-X said: I was a kid in London having moved back in the summer of '77 - the Jubilee, but already a City fan having seen Larry May's debut at my first game earlier in the year. Even at the age of eleven the vibe the anger and energy of this emergent genre was incredible. and it ****ing blew me away. These are the top ten definitive albums in my opinion, most pre 1980s...and no, ****ing Green Day aren't included. Is punk more about the sound or the message for you? I mean, I make no secret of the fact that I love Green Day from their first EP through to Insomniac (1995). Until Dookie in 1994 I can't really see an argument to suggest that they were contrived or at all polished. Of course you may think differently. I do also like a fair few bands from the Berkeley California Gilaman Street scene at that time (late 80s/early 90s) but you seem to not consider it 'true' or 'proper'. Again I'm not looking to argue with you at all, I'm just interested in your opinion. Personally (apologies if this is sacrilege!) it seems odd that bands like the Clash should be considered punk. They were very mainstream were they not? And records like London Calling and I fought the law sound very poppy to me really. Again, maybe it's the lyrics or message that you enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 27 August 2017 Author Share Posted 27 August 2017 8 hours ago, DennisNedry said: Is punk more about the sound or the message for you? I mean, I make no secret of the fact that I love Green Day from their first EP through to Insomniac (1995). Until Dookie in 1994 I can't really see an argument to suggest that they were contrived or at all polished. Of course you may think differently. I do also like a fair few bands from the Berkeley California Gilaman Street scene at that time (late 80s/early 90s) but you seem to not consider it 'true' or 'proper'. Again I'm not looking to argue with you at all, I'm just interested in your opinion. Personally (apologies if this is sacrilege!) it seems odd that bands like the Clash should be considered punk. They were very mainstream were they not? And records like London Calling and I fought the law sound very poppy to me really. Again, maybe it's the lyrics or message that you enjoy. I think it was It was very much about the era, the context, the setting and expression within that. It was a reactionary movement apwned from a multitude of influences and variables that initially wasn't conscious of itself but was quickly labelled and bracketed. Did Strummer and Simomon consider themselves "punks"? maybe initially when the term was first coined but not in the same way that say Brody Dalle declared herself to be and conformed to the stereotype. By late '77 there were thousands of kids jumping on the bandwagon and record labels clamouring to sign them up - the spontaneity had gone. Even on the first Clash album, 'Complete Control' laments the death of the original punk ideal, compromised by the corporate machine that they themselves become a part of and the manipulative machinations of svengalis such as Mclaren and Rhodes. That sound - even the anger, could be reproduced - that many of the original protagonists chose not to was quite telling. Was Sandinista a punk album? No more so than 'Marquee Moon' but the latter was a product of the verve, the spirit and ethos at the time, (in that case Lower East Side of Manhattan) and to listen to it now you'd say it spawned more in the way of Franz Ferdinand than it did Green Day. Music is so easily categorised, but is also carries personal meaning and subjective interpretation. In my opinion punk was practically over before it 'began'....but what came after was actually almost invariably artistically way much more interesting because some chose to leave it behind - but years later there are a great many bands and albums that we classify as punk. As I said to Finnegan, I don't regard many of the bands he mentioned as illegitimate, it's just to me many are not what I personally would regard as punk even if the record industry/consumer does. The sound could be easily confected or reinvented for whatever artistic or commercial reason, but the spirit and circumstances of '76 and '77 could not. Perhaps why some of the founders were so keen to dispel the tag. It's not snobbery on my part - any more than it is 'sacrilege' on yours...and in hindsight I shouldn't have made a disparaging comment about Green Day because I do like 39/smooth. Merely, that in compiling what in my opinion are the ten essential punk albums, they do not feature. If you chose to do so I'm sure your reasons for doing so would be every bit as legitimate and valid for my reasons for omission because they would be predominately personal and as I said to Finners, that's ultimately what counts. Please don't mention Blink 182 though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 27 August 2017 Author Share Posted 27 August 2017 12 hours ago, Chico1958 said: I did really like the The Damned and I have plans to see them in Cardiff in Feb. Only a few of the above stood the test of time.............. You decide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boots60 Posted 27 August 2017 Share Posted 27 August 2017 Stiff little fingers albums, Imflammable material, Nobody's hero & Hanx are all a good shout as essential punk albums. Hanx being probably the best ever live punk album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 27 August 2017 Author Share Posted 27 August 2017 1 hour ago, boots60 said: Hanx being probably the best ever live punk album. Great call - personally I agree, although add to that Black Flag "Who's Got the 10 1/2?", Ramones "It's Alive" and "The Heartbreakers Live at Max's Kansas City". You'd also have to include "The Roxy London WC2". "Final Damnation" is a personal choice because I can testify having been there in Kentish Town, it was a great night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted 27 August 2017 Share Posted 27 August 2017 13 hours ago, DennisNedry said: Is punk more about the sound or the message for you? I mean, I make no secret of the fact that I love Green Day from their first EP through to Insomniac (1995). Until Dookie in 1994 I can't really see an argument to suggest that they were contrived or at all polished. Of course you may think differently. I do also like a fair few bands from the Berkeley California Gilaman Street scene at that time (late 80s/early 90s) but you seem to not consider it 'true' or 'proper'. Again I'm not looking to argue with you at all, I'm just interested in your opinion. Personally (apologies if this is sacrilege!) it seems odd that bands like the Clash should be considered punk. They were very mainstream were they not? And records like London Calling and I fought the law sound very poppy to me really. Again, maybe it's the lyrics or message that you enjoy. It's got to be about the message and the ethos. If you're not doing either you're just making noisy pop music. Also, no love for The Refused? Shape of Punk To Come is absolute mint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chico1958 Posted 27 August 2017 Share Posted 27 August 2017 It's about the message and the music for me................ I have followed this band since their inception. When they tour I'm there or there abouts..... more rock than Punk these days but the message always remains the same Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacedX Posted 27 August 2017 Author Share Posted 27 August 2017 7 hours ago, Chico1958 said: It's about the message and the music for me................ I have followed this band since their inception. When they tour I'm there or there abouts..... more rock than Punk these days but the message always remains the same Enjoy This thread gets even better - genuinely, thanks of that. An old friend who I recently learnt is now diseased did the same - religiously followed this band on tour because, they were so compelling...and Jaz Coleman is an enigma. Has he moved back from New Zealand? No idea, last I heard he'd abandoned the industry - and 11,000 miles is a reasonable buffer. "With dub—and to a degree, disco and funk—there is repetition of a line, and you get locked in for many, many bars of a groove. Even with a band like the Stooges, there is hypnotic repetition of a riff. With dub, I think that becomes an absolute science. It’s very Zen—all decoration and extraneous material is rejected, and you are reduced to a primal element of absolute simplicity. It’s both primitive and beautiful." - Youth. Forget Don Letts for a change - a perfect explanation as to why punk and dub fused so comfortably. Great band...great shout. Thanks Chico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 28 August 2017 Share Posted 28 August 2017 On 8/27/2017 at 00:40, DennisNedry said: Is punk more about the sound or the message for you? I mean, I make no secret of the fact that I love Green Day from their first EP through to Insomniac (1995). Until Dookie in 1994 I can't really see an argument to suggest that they were contrived or at all polished. Of course you may think differently. I do also like a fair few bands from the Berkeley California Gilaman Street scene at that time (late 80s/early 90s) but you seem to not consider it 'true' or 'proper'. Again I'm not looking to argue with you at all, I'm just interested in your opinion. Personally (apologies if this is sacrilege!) it seems odd that bands like the Clash should be considered punk. They were very mainstream were they not? And records like London Calling and I fought the law sound very poppy to me really. Again, maybe it's the lyrics or message that you enjoy. Both. At the end of the day, it's a genre of music and the most important thing for me when listening to music is what it sounds like. Some of my favourite songs aren't in English, I've got no idea what all the lyrics mean, the sound is everything. Give me Agnostic Front belting out Gotta Go over London Calling or Anarchy In The UK any day because, the bottom line is, Gotta Go gets my blood pumping and those two "classics" don't. The Descendants signing about coffee at 2000 RPM is far more entertaining to me than listening to John Lydon scream that the Queen's a fascist in some tinny warble. But it's got to be about the ethos as well, to an extent. You can go too far and lose your charm entirely when you find yourself listening to some crap like New Found Glory or Bowling For Soup singing dick jokes about being a teenager when they're pushing thirty five, signed to Sony or whoever the **** to make as much as they can before they become irrelevant. I wouldn't call early Green Day especially polished or manufactured but they were just pretty much covering Still Little Fingers songs and changing the words to be about how hard it is being a middle class white kid in suburban California which is kinda a long way from being some Belfast scrote singing about the troubles, yknow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 1 September 2017 Share Posted 1 September 2017 On 25/08/2017 at 10:42, Finnegan said: Whatever DID happen to Suburban Rhythm?! You're probably asking a genuine question about the early 90's band, but all you've managed to do is get the Reel Big Fish song "S.R." stuck in my head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 1 September 2017 Share Posted 1 September 2017 Just now, TiffToff88 said: You're probably asking a genuine question about the early 90's band, but all you've managed to do is get the Reel Big Fish song "S.R." stuck in my head Of course I was quoting SR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiffToff88 Posted 1 September 2017 Share Posted 1 September 2017 Reel Big Fish - Great music, great songs, great albums, Terrible live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 1 September 2017 Share Posted 1 September 2017 4 minutes ago, TiffToff88 said: Reel Big Fish - Great music, great songs, great albums, Terrible live. I'd say the complete opposite haha. I've never listened to an album of theirs the whole way through, never been much of a fan. But I've seen them live twice at festivals and they were always pretty entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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