What's in the news?

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, Buce said:

You’ll note it’s again mainly the older generation. The same generation who voted to leave the EU, opposed gay marriage, supports capital punishment, and keeps the Tories in power.  

I think the impact of changing demographics can't be underplayed either.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

 

"when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population"

 

"39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole"

 

 

Last time I checked Muslims overwhelmingly voted Labour - so you can't pin all this on Tories to make yourself feel superior.

 

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[Guest MattP]

3 hours ago, Alf Bentley said:

Though most of the stats were depressing, I found some of the ones about attitudes among young people and women more shocking:

- 16% of those aged 16-24 thinking non-consensual sex with a wife/partner wasn't rape (33%+ for over-65s)

- 21% of women thinking that non-consensual sex wasn't rape if the women had flirted on a date (33% for men)

- 23% of women thinking that they couldn't change their minds once sex had started (33%+ for men)

I find 1 & 2 deeply disturbing there but I'm not at all surprised at 3.

 

I've heard men arguing openly that if you started that means yes and you are entitled to carry on, I'd have probably even taken a guess it would have been higher than 33% had you asked me before.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I find 1 & 2 deeply disturbing there but I'm not at all surprised at 3.

 

I've heard men arguing openly that if you started that means yes and you are entitled to carry on, I'd have probably even taken a guess it would have been higher than 33% had you asked me before.

The question is...where are the younger folks getting these attitudes about consent from when it's now known so obviously as a bad thing?

 

Can't be all from their parents.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

The question is...where are the younger folks getting these attitudes about consent from when it's now known so obviously as a bad thing?

 

Can't be all from their parents.

Xvideos or Youjizz probably. 

 

Fcuk knows how you stop them watching that.

[Alf Bentley]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

I find 1 & 2 deeply disturbing there but I'm not at all surprised at 3.

 

I've heard men arguing openly that if you started that means yes and you are entitled to carry on, I'd have probably even taken a guess it would have been higher than 33% had you asked me before.

 

On that third one, although 33%+ of men is higher than I'd have expected (annoying/frustrating to be told to stop, yes, but feeling entitled to carry on against a woman's will?!), it was more the 23% of women that surprised me......

Though I've not checked the size or credibility of sample size or precise survey questions, which can affect the relevance of findings. 

[Alf Bentley]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

Xvideos or Youjizz probably. 

 

Fcuk knows how you stop them watching that.

 

I doubt that it's possible to stop people watching aggressive porn, beyond stuff that's deemed illegal and unacceptable worldwide, ending up on the Dark Web, which most teenagers probably cannot access.

More a case of counter-balancing legal aggressive porn, so that it doesn't influence young people's attitudes, I'd say - with schools probably the best route, though imperfect.

 

Possibly also lads aping "gangster" culture/attitudes in some cases? 

[leicsmac]

7 minutes ago, MattP said:

Xvideos or Youjizz probably. 

 

Fcuk knows how you stop them watching that.

Yeah, your standard pr0n isn't brilliant for illustrating consent.

 

I do think there's still a cultural attitude thing going on there too - when such things have been accepted for so long getting them to shift takes time (especially when you have those who really want them to stay that way in the interests of their own power).

[Guest MattP]

8 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

On that third one, although 33%+ of men is higher than I'd have expected (annoying/frustrating to be told to stop, yes, but feeling entitled to carry on against a woman's will?!), it was more the 23% of women that surprised me......

Though I've not checked the size or credibility of sample size or precise survey questions, which can affect the relevance of findings. 

Be interesting to see more. I've never been in the position but it would be extremely annoying if right as you were about to work up to climax you were told to stop.

 

I mean it's so wrong obviously, but some caveman/testosterone instinct could kick in at that point - not saying it's right but I could understand it.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Be interesting to see more. I've never been in the position but it would be extremely annoying if right as you were about to work up to climax you were told to stop.

 

I mean it's so wrong obviously, but some caveman/testosterone instinct could kick in at that point - not saying it's right but I could understand it.

Nah, we're human and if we don't use the damned brains evolution has given us in difficult situations we're not a lot of good, are we?

 

It would probably be rather chastening, but I don't think it takes too much effort to stop, find out what the problem is and sympathise, and then either go someplace else to finish yourself off or have a cold shower.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, we're human and if we don't use the damned brains evolution has given us in difficult situations we're not a lot of good, are we?

 

It would probably be rather chastening, but I don't think it takes too much effort to stop, find out what the problem is and sympathise, and then either go someplace else to finish yourself off or have a cold shower.

If brain always went over instinct we would be a perfect species - we are fallable. Many times I've gone with the latter in a situation.

 

I'd be interested to read any cases where something like this has happened right at that point, what the verdict was and what sentencing would be to a more "normal" rape.

Edited 6 December 2018 by MattP

[leicsmac]

Just now, MattP said:

If brain always went over instinct we would be a perfect species - we are fallable. Many times I've gone with the latter in a situation.

 

I'd be interested to read any cases where something like this has happened right at that point, what the verdict was and what sentencing would be to a more "normal" rape.

Yeah, we definitely aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean it isn't something to angle for and strive towards, especially in this respect - even though we won't get there, we'll get closer and that's good.

 

And tbh if by "normal" you mean most commonplace incidence, then I'd say the situation above actually ranks pretty high, alongside incidents involving trusted friends or even family members. The "stranger attacker" rapist idea is a prevalent one but it really doesn't make up much of the numbers at all.

[Guest MattP]

16 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

(especially when you have those who really want them to stay that way in the interests of their own power).

Forgive me if I'm wrong but is this a dig at Trump?

 

I don't think this is in anyway connected to politics at all - I mean Hollywood is almost exclusively Left-Wing/Democrat and that seems to be epicentre of the biggest current sexual abuse scandal among the powerful in America now.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong but is this a dig at Trump?

 

I don't think this is in anyway connected to politics at all - I mean Hollywood is almost exclusively Left-Wing/Democrat and that seems to be epicentre of the biggest current sexual abuse scandal among the powerful in America now.

Nah, for once it isn't - more at the knuckle draggers (some of whom do vote for him) that still have it in their heads that women are objects and consent doesn't matter. And that goes for whatever associated ideology they share, be it left wing or right wing.

[Buce]

24 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I doubt that it's possible to stop people watching aggressive porn, beyond stuff that's deemed illegal and unacceptable worldwide, ending up on the Dark Web, which most teenagers probably cannot access.

More a case of counter-balancing legal aggressive porn, so that it doesn't influence young people's attitudes, I'd say - with schools probably the best route, though imperfect.

 

Possibly also lads aping "gangster" culture/attitudes in some cases? 

 

 

That's an interesting viewpoint, Alf - what suggests to you that that's the case?

 

Since teenagers/young people are generally more IT savvy than the older generations, it would seem logical that they are also more 'Dark Web' savvy.

[Foxxed]

Farage, a man who sang hitler youth songs as a teen, has quit Ukip because he finds them too racist. Incredible.

 

He's so slimey there's probably some ulterior motive though. I wouldn't be surprised if he's trying to rebrand himself for another foray into professional lying.

 

He's still banking his 60k a year European Parliament check. I bet he's well up to his arse in all this new money too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/28/us-groups-raise-millions-to-support-rightwing-uk-thinktanks

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, for once it isn't - more at the knuckle draggers (some of whom do vote for him) that still have it in their heads that women are objects and consent doesn't matter. And that goes for whatever associated ideology they share, be it left wing or right wing.

No worries mate.

 

Although I'll again say, clearly plenty of Democrat voters think the same thing - people like Weinstein, Spacey Damon etc aren't Trump voters.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, Foxxed said:

Farage, a man who sang hitler youth songs as a teen, has quit Ukip because he finds them too racist. Incredible.

 

He's so slimey there's probably some ulterior motive though. I wouldn't be surprised if he's trying to rebrand himself for another foray into professional lying.

 

He's still banking his 60k a year European Parliament check. I bet he's well up to his arse in all this new money too: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/28/us-groups-raise-millions-to-support-rightwing-uk-thinktanks

Why wouldn't he be collecting his wage in the EU parliament whilst he's still employed there having been elected? He's more than entitled to it.

 

I doubt he'll be back into politics either - he gave an interview with the Sunday Times a couple of weeks saying he's happier and less stressed than at any point in his life.

[leicsmac]

23 minutes ago, MattP said:

No worries mate.

 

Although I'll again say, clearly plenty of Democrat voters think the same thing - people like Weinstein, Spacey Damon etc aren't Trump voters.

Yeah, you're going to find powermongers in every ideology who want it all for themselves - part of being human, and a reason why I said what I said to Alf a little while back.

 

I'm what a lot of people would call leftie (and more libertarian than authoritarian) simply because I think at least some of the decisions they have in mind, by and large, give the biggest part of humanity a better chance of making it through the future.

 

If there was suddenly a brutally authoritarian racist party who also happened to push scientific progress through the roof and engage in wholesale changes away from oil, gas and coal power systems that would be a necessity for the future then...well, I'd be pretty pissed off at what was going on tbh.

 

(Thankfully I don't ever see that being the case.)

[purpleronnie]

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

Why wouldn't he be collecting his wage in the EU parliament whilst he's still employed there having been elected? He's more than entitled to it.

 

I doubt he'll be back into politics either - he gave an interview with the Sunday Times a couple of weeks saying he's happier and less stressed than at any point in his life.

Yep he's not one for changing his mind.

[Alf Bentley]

39 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's an interesting viewpoint, Alf - what suggests to you that that's the case?

 

Since teenagers/young people are generally more IT savvy than the older generations, it would seem logical that they are also more 'Dark Web' savvy.

 

No knowledge - and I might be completely wrong.

 

However, I wasn't suggesting that fewer teenagers than older generations could access the Dark Web. Just that a lot fewer people overall - including teenagers - can or do access it, compared to mainstream parts of the World Wide Web.

I'm sure a high proportion of teenagers visit mainstream porn sites and some are influenced by legal videos of aggressive sex, but I imagine only a minority can or do visit the Dark Web to view illegal, ultra-nasty stuff like child porn. 

[Buce]

12 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

No knowledge - and I might be completely wrong.

 

However, I wasn't suggesting that fewer teenagers than older generations could access the Dark Web. Just that a lot fewer people overall - including teenagers - can or do access it, compared to mainstream parts of the World Wide Web.

I'm sure a high proportion of teenagers visit mainstream porn sites and some are influenced by legal videos of aggressive sex, but I imagine only a minority can or do visit the Dark Web to view illegal, ultra-nasty stuff like child porn. 

 

Yes, I’m sure you’re right about them not visiting the DW to view child porn, but tbh that’s just a tiny corner of the DW. 

[FoxNotFox]

The only times I've tried to access the DW, I've found it too slow (I've got a crap web connection) I remember the newsgroups in the old days of t'internet, the alt.binaries etc, now they were an eye opener to the kind of stuff there is out there and how (comparatively) easy it is to access. Believe me, 'older generations' have been able to share kiddie porn etc easily for quite some time. 

[Voll Blau]

Well up for this idea.

[Buce]

19 minutes ago, FoxNotFox said:

The only times I've tried to access the DW, I've found it too slow (I've got a crap web connection) I remember the newsgroups in the old days of t'internet, the alt.binaries etc, now they were an eye opener to the kind of stuff there is out there and how (comparatively) easy it is to access. Believe me, 'older generations' have been able to share kiddie porn etc easily for quite some time. 

 

I assume you use a VPN? Because that will slow things down regardless of your connection speed. 

[Alf Bentley]

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

No knowledge - and I might be completely wrong.

 

However, I wasn't suggesting that fewer teenagers than older generations could access the Dark Web. Just that a lot fewer people overall - including teenagers - can or do access it, compared to mainstream parts of the World Wide Web.

I'm sure a high proportion of teenagers visit mainstream porn sites and some are influenced by legal videos of aggressive sex, but I imagine only a minority can or do visit the Dark Web to view illegal, ultra-nasty stuff. 

 

21 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Yes, I’m sure you’re right about them not visiting the DW to view child porn, but tbh that’s just a tiny corner of the DW. 

 

 

I've re-posted my comment, removing the words "like child porn" as they were a distraction from the point that I was really making.

 

Anyway, I'm now removing myself from this particular discussion as (a) I don't know much about it; (b) I'm finding it a bit depressing.