Iran

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, SO1 said:

and the US and the UK don't? Look at Syria. Know what the word proxy means?

Educate yourself as much as you can and I know that takes time that most of us don't have. Our corrupt governments depend on it.

 

Well you see i happen to believe that the West is a force for good in the main, so I much prefer our (mostly) open support of proxies to that of our enemies.  Pretty simple concept really.

[Jon the Hat]

7 hours ago, SO1 said:

swaths of people have to suffer at the hands of the US and UK all the time.......... fixed it for you

One thing is for certain. The US/UK and friends will be leaving Iraq or they will bankrupt themselves morally and financially staying.

The dollar as the world's reserve currency is ending. The rest of the world is tired of being a slave to our interests. Kiss the empire goodbye.

Why do you hate your country so much? It's a bit wierd.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Well you see i happen to believe that the West is a force for good in the main, so I much prefer our (mostly) open support of proxies to that of our enemies.  Pretty simple concept really.

That's fair enough...but not to get abstract here, I've come to believe that good and evil are most often completely subjective names for what people do, not what they are. And all the global powers, whoever they are, are capable of either in large measure.

 

The idea that there has to be two (or more) sides in some kind of twisted global chess game is needless rubbish of the highest order, IMO.

[Jon the Hat]

52 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

That's fair enough...but not to get abstract here, I've come to believe that good and evil are most often completely subjective names for what people do, not what they are. And all the global powers, whoever they are, are capable of either in large measure.

 

The idea that there has to be two (or more) sides in some kind of twisted global chess game is needless rubbish of the highest order, IMO.

Yes and no.  I am pretty comfortable that the freedoms we enjoy in the west are an improvement over say being hanged for being gay, or executed for your religion, or being forced to cover up becuase you are a woman.  Fundatmentals are important I think.

[leicsmac]

44 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

Yes and no.  I am pretty comfortable that the freedoms we enjoy in the west are an improvement over say being hanged for being gay, or executed for your religion, or being forced to cover up becuase you are a woman.  Fundatmentals are important I think.

I'd certainly agree that there are much more freedom of expression in western countries (though there is still a certain amount of prejudice that while not being state backed is not really clamped down on enough), but then those western countries tend to (at times) export the oppression and brutality that they engage in, instead of working it on their own populace. Not all western countries and not all to the same degree, obviously.

[Guest Kopfkino]

Did enjoy these

 

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, Jon the Hat said:

Why do you hate your country so much? It's a bit wierd.

Tbh I just think these people are best annoyed. There's a necessity for well-informed and well-deserved critique because the power the US has is so large and possibly damaging but at some point it turns weirdly pathological. 

 

The US (and its allies) isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination and gets many many things 'wrong'. But imagine if China or Russia (or Iran) had the US's power, economic might and military projection. I'm all ears for anyone with a reasoned argument for why that would be preferable but I don't believe it to be. I think there is a reason that people in Egypt, Libya, and Syria in 2011 wanted the US to help, not because its perfect and always delivers optimal outcomes, but because they believed the US were most likely to uphold what they were fighting for. 

[leicsmac]

42 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Tbh I just think these people are best annoyed. There's a necessity for well-informed and well-deserved critique because the power the US has is so large and possibly damaging but at some point it turns weirdly pathological. 

 

The US (and its allies) isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination and gets many many things 'wrong'. But imagine if China or Russia (or Iran) had the US's power, economic might and military projection. I'm all ears for anyone with a reasoned argument for why that would be preferable but I don't believe it to be. I think there is a reason that people in Egypt, Libya, and Syria in 2011 wanted the US to help, not because its perfect and always delivers optimal outcomes, but because they believed the US were most likely to uphold what they were fighting for. 

I really don't think there is any argument at all for China, Russia or Iran to have the current power of the US and that be taken as a good thing - they're clearly far more repressive towards their own population and as such it's to be expected they'd be equally so towards others if their grasp was wider, too.

 

This is just shooting in the dark and it may well not be representative of any viewpoint but my own, but I think that at least a certain amount of frustration towards the US from certain circles isn't because it's as bad as those other actors, but because it could be better than it is now, do better than it is now...and yet often chooses not to because, well, perhaps because the international bar for good deeds is really that low and it feels that it doesn't need to. Or perhaps for other reasons. "I'm #1 so why try harder?", perhaps?

 

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect better things of the US internationally and domestically than what they do now...but for a nation that prides itself on and was built on striving towards being better, perhaps that ethos should be upheld a little more in terms of policy?

[Guest MattP]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Why do you hate your country so much? It's a bit wierd.

Its peculiar, bit quite normal now among the "woke" left.

 

Just imagine had our election last month gone the other way, we'd now have a foreign policy effectively backing a regime that hangs gays and throws women in prison for the way they dress.

 

Completely mental but they would somehow justify it to themselves.

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, MattP said:

Its peculiar, bit quite normal now among the "woke" left.

 

Just imagine had our election last month gone the other way, we'd now have a foreign policy effectively backing a regime that hangs gays and throws women in prison for the way they dress.

 

Completely mental but they would somehow justify it to themselves.

I'm curious if it's equally "mental" to not buy into the dichotomy between the two sides at all and think that the whole idea of such a dichotomy seemingly having to exist in the first place stinks to high heaven and beyond?

[Guest MattP]

2 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I'm curious if it's equally "mental" to not buy into the dichotomy between the two sides at all and think that the whole idea of such a dichotomy seemingly having to exist in the first place stinks to high heaven and beyond?

That's not mental at all. It's what most people try to do.

 

Just to be clear, do you actually assume yourself you are neutral on this?

 

No offence, but I think you'd be backing the Nazis if Trump said something nasty to them.

[leicsmac]

Just now, MattP said:

That's not mental at all. It's what most people try to do.

 

Just to be clear, do you actually assume yourself you are neutral on this?

 

No offence, but I think you'd be backing the Nazis if Trump said something nasty to them.

I might say the same about supporting Trump and your own neutrality tbh, though you never claimed to be neutral I suppose.

 

No offence taken, but allow me to clarify my own viewpoint in brief:

 

The clerics in charge of Iran right now are a bunch of fundie goons that routinely oppress their own population through acts of kidnap, torture and outright murder of those who don't share their religious beliefs. The sooner a more moderate regime comes to power there, the better.

 

The current (and past) regimes in charge of the US are a bunch of militaristic goons that routinely oppress *other* populations, most often under the idea that they're somehow doing those populations a favour, through acts of anything from secret acts of subterfuge (coup sponsorship) to economic warfare to outright murder. The sooner cooler heads become the norm over *there*, the better.

 

And this is to say nothing of other actors like Russia and China who have their own acts of brutality both at home and abroad.

 

So, no, I'm not picking a side here, in fact I'm rejecting the entire idea that there has to be sides in the first place and that an ideology of whatever kind (except the kind that actually helps everyone rather than just your tribe) is worth getting into a fight for. Some people call that human nature and say it's unavoidable, but IMO that's bollocks and an affront to the very idea of freedom of choice.

 

Just because I wail on Trump on a regular basis doesn't mean I side with people who are his enemies if their own worldviews are shit.

[The Syrup]

Various sources in the US saying that Iran shot down the Ukrainian airliner yesterday, whether by accident or targeted is unknown.

 

[lestajigs]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Why do you hate your country so much? It's a bit wierd.

Maybe he is Jeremy Corbyn’s love child 😂

[Guest MattP]

56 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I might say the same about supporting Trump and your own neutrality tbh, though you never claimed to be neutral I suppose.

 

No offence taken, but allow me to clarify my own viewpoint in brief:

 

The clerics in charge of Iran right now are a bunch of fundie goons that routinely oppress their own population through acts of kidnap, torture and outright murder of those who don't share their religious beliefs. The sooner a more moderate regime comes to power there, the better.

 

The current (and past) regimes in charge of the US are a bunch of militaristic goons that routinely oppress *other* populations, most often under the idea that they're somehow doing those populations a favour, through acts of anything from secret acts of subterfuge (coup sponsorship) to economic warfare to outright murder. The sooner cooler heads become the norm over *there*, the better.

 

And this is to say nothing of other actors like Russia and China who have their own acts of brutality both at home and abroad.

 

So, no, I'm not picking a side here, in fact I'm rejecting the entire idea that there has to be sides in the first place and that an ideology of whatever kind (except the kind that actually helps everyone rather than just your tribe) is worth getting into a fight for. Some people call that human nature and say it's unavoidable, but IMO that's bollocks and an affront to the very idea of freedom of choice.

 

Just because I wail on Trump on a regular basis doesn't mean I side with people who are his enemies if their own worldviews are shit.

My opinions on Trump are here to see and are written down, go back to 2016 and I wrote that I wouldn't vote for him.

 

Would I vote for him this year? Likely I would. Almost certainly if the modern woke left is representative of what will replace it.

 

I think you might be in for some disappointment later this year, the Dems seem to think bringing more BAME voters will win it for them, dont be surprised if you get a similar cultural shock to what Labour got last month.

[Guest SO1]

8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Why do you hate your country so much? It's a bit wierd.

I don't hate my country. Just the people who control and run it to do such immoral actions around the world. The US is not a democracy its an oligarchy.

[Guest SO1]

8 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Well you see i happen to believe that the West is a force for good in the main, so I much prefer our (mostly) open support of proxies to that of our enemies.  Pretty simple concept really.

Look at before and after photos of our damage and influence in Iraq and Syria. Believe what you feel is right. The world keeps turning.

Hard for me to see the pain and suffering inflected on others because of my country and those in power.

[Guest SO1]

5 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I really don't think there is any argument at all for China, Russia or Iran to have the current power of the US and that be taken as a good thing - they're clearly far more repressive towards their own population and as such it's to be expected they'd be equally so towards others if their grasp was wider, too.

 

This is just shooting in the dark and it may well not be representative of any viewpoint but my own, but I think that at least a certain amount of frustration towards the US from certain circles isn't because it's as bad as those other actors, but because it could be better than it is now, do better than it is now...and yet often chooses not to because, well, perhaps because the international bar for good deeds is really that low and it feels that it doesn't need to. Or perhaps for other reasons. "I'm #1 so why try harder?", perhaps?

 

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect better things of the US internationally and domestically than what they do now...but for a nation that prides itself on and was built on striving towards being better, perhaps that ethos should be upheld a little more in terms of policy?

I live on the planet Earth. I want the world to be a better place for all. Thanks for trying to understand the larger picture.

[Guest SO1]

1 hour ago, lestajigs said:

Maybe he is Jeremy Corbyn’s love child 😂

Do I get any financial fringe benefits from that.

[Guest Kopfkino]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I really don't think there is any argument at all for China, Russia or Iran to have the current power of the US and that be taken as a good thing - they're clearly far more repressive towards their own population and as such it's to be expected they'd be equally so towards others if their grasp was wider, too.

 

This is just shooting in the dark and it may well not be representative of any viewpoint but my own, but I think that at least a certain amount of frustration towards the US from certain circles isn't because it's as bad as those other actors, but because it could be better than it is now, do better than it is now...and yet often chooses not to because, well, perhaps because the international bar for good deeds is really that low and it feels that it doesn't need to. Or perhaps for other reasons. "I'm #1 so why try harder?", perhaps?

 

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect better things of the US internationally and domestically than what they do now...but for a nation that prides itself on and was built on striving towards being better, perhaps that ethos should be upheld a little more in terms of policy?

Ah yes 'better' a wonderful word in the unsubstantiated facile abstract but utterly meaningless in the concrete. 

 

We can all do, want, and be better it doesn't require the weird pathological self-loathing of the significant portion of people I was referring. I wish US MENA policy to be 'better', e.g actually have a strategy, but I don't have to just slag the US off to make that point. Tbh I think its all just some odd form of chauvinism where people think the US can operate in a vacuum, just doing and being 'good', completely immune to the sequence of trade-offs that is the functioning of the world. 

[Lionator]

I stand by my hypothesis of yesterday morning that Trump has planned most of this purely to win himself the Nobel Peace Prize such is his level of narcissism. He doesn't want a war, he wants accolades.  

 

Anyway it looks like the hysteria has died down, albeit with dreadful levels of collateral damage ie the plane crash. 

[bovril]

I imagine the US knew almost immediately that the plane had been shot down, which suggests they allowed a bit of disinformation out yesterday to deescalate the situation and allowed Trudeau to be the one making the first public statement. Quite a deft handling of the situation. 

[LiberalFox]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

Its peculiar, bit quite normal now among the "woke" left.

 

Just imagine had our election last month gone the other way, we'd now have a foreign policy effectively backing a regime that hangs gays and throws women in prison for the way they dress.

 

Completely mental but they would somehow justify it to themselves.

As oppose to our current foreign policy effectively backing a regime that executes gays and throws women in prison for the way they dress (Saudi Arabia)? I highly doubt Corbyn would have been sending arms to Iran, probably taking a harder stance against Trump which frankly wouldn't have changed anything anyway.

 

I'm all for supporting oppressed minorities under illiberal regimes but there's never been an instance of successfully installing a liberal secular democracy through the use of lethal force. Afghanistan we achieved nothing and the country is largely run by the Taliban (we did build them a bit of infrastructure which I'm sure they are happy to have). Iraq is divided by religious identity and in a state of perpetual turmoil, it's a breeding ground and haven for international terrorism. Libya is another haven for terrorists and organised criminals who traffic immigrants across the Mediterranean causing much human misery in the process.

[LiberalFox]

I'm not sure why the plane was allowed to take off either by Iranian authorities or by the airline themselves, it seems ludicrously negligent for a civilian plane to take off right into an active warzone. I wouldn't have boarded a plane under the circumstances. 

[The Syrup]

38 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

I'm not sure why the plane was allowed to take off either by Iranian authorities or by the airline themselves, it seems ludicrously negligent for a civilian plane to take off right into an active warzone. I wouldn't have boarded a plane under the circumstances. 

There were a few reputable airlines taking off from Tehran on their normal schedule around this time, the likes of Qatar, Lufthansa, Aeroflot, Turkish airlines. This Ukrainian flight was delayed by an hour though. Maybe the Iranian military saw the plane, they weren't expecting it and got itchy trigger fingers whilst expecting a US retaliation. I wouldn't get on a plane in that situation tbf