The “ I’ve got something to say, but it doesn’t warrant its own thread “ thread.

[Torquay Gunner]

14 hours ago, bovril said:

I know it is very déclassé for an urban bourgeois like me to complain about 'woke' stuff but young men in Britain are frequently told that they are inherently privileged and that their role in society is problematic and in need of dismantling. Maybe just watching a netflix series in schools isn't going to be enough? 

Told by whom may I ask? Not a view I have heard before, although I follow very little social media tbh. 

[Mike Oxlong]

1 hour ago, Grebfromgrebland said:

Not everyone wants to see you naked 

Fair point 

[Stuntman_Mike]

It's absolutely blown my mind that Joanne Sharkey has avoided jail for killing her baby. 

 

I know we're often soft in this country and I appreciate the importance of understanding mental health etc, but that is absolutely insane. 

[CosbehFox]

Thanks for everyone’s advice. The headaches are calming down now. Became tension type and now rhey seem to come and go. 
 

Really looking. Forward to Stockholm next weekend 

Edited 4 April by CosbehFox

[bovril]

1 hour ago, Torquay Gunner said:

Told by whom may I ask? Not a view I have heard before, although I follow very little social media tbh. 

No I will not be taking any questions. This is gen chat after all. 

[Torquay Gunner]

8 minutes ago, bovril said:

No I will not be taking any questions. This is gen chat after all. 

Oh ok, you stated opinion like a fact, so I wondered where that came from, but if you don't want to explain it so be it. 

[bovril]

9 minutes ago, Torquay Gunner said:

Oh ok, you stated opinion like a fact, so I wondered where that came from, but if you don't want to explain it so be it. 

I'm sure I could google a few specific examples when I have more time. Just from casual observation and experience I would say that in modern Britain there is far more discourse in media and academia around the privileged positions males hold in society and how this privilege and traditional gender roles are harmful and in need of challenging, compared to say 20 years ago. Fair enough if someone hasn't noticed that, although I would be surprised. 

 

 

[Torquay Gunner]

1 hour ago, bovril said:

I'm sure I could google a few specific examples when I have more time. Just from casual observation and experience I would say that in modern Britain there is far more discourse in media and academia around the privileged positions males hold in society and how this privilege and traditional gender roles are harmful and in need of challenging, compared to say 20 years ago. Fair enough if someone hasn't noticed that, although I would be surprised. 

 

 

Ok thanks. 

[Zear0]

1 hour ago, Torquay Gunner said:

Oh ok, you stated opinion like a fact, so I wondered where that came from, but if you don't want to explain it so be it. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00290bg

 

This was a good listen about the topic as it goes through the example @bovrilraised far more eloquently than I could.

 

They discussed many reviews undertaken within education that in the pursuit of empowering girls to be more driven and aspirational, there has been a measurable drop in the equivalent behaviour towards boys leading to a drop in self confidence and the rise in incel behaviour.

 

Everyone was of the view that it didn't need to be a zero sum game but that boys are being painted as problematic and now have Lowe expectations that is driving poor behaviour in early adulthood. Some examples given were many school rewarded boys for simply not f**king up compares to girls who were incentivised to push themselves and obtain the developmental benefits that provided. 

[bovril]

21 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00290bg

 

This was a good listen about the topic as it goes through the example @bovrilraised far more eloquently than I could.

 

They discussed many reviews undertaken within education that in the pursuit of empowering girls to be more driven and aspirational, there has been a measurable drop in the equivalent behaviour towards boys leading to a drop in self confidence and the rise in incel behaviour.

 

Everyone was of the view that it didn't need to be a zero sum game but that boys are being painted as problematic and now have Lowe expectations that is driving poor behaviour in early adulthood. Some examples given were many school rewarded boys for simply not f**king up compares to girls who were incentivised to push themselves and obtain the developmental benefits that provided. 

Thanks. I realise my post was a bit "source: trust me bro" so I appreciate the back up.

 

Obviously in the last decade or so in many countries we've seen more focus on challenging traditional power structures and disempowering traditionally dominant groups, while trying to raise up those groups that usually lacked institutional power. I suppose a lot of it is with good intentions but I remain unconvinced how successful or beneficial the often ham-fisted British version of it is. Like Amol says at 16 I wouldn't have known what "the patriarchy" was, and I don't think making young people hyper aware of their problematic social status is really the best way forward, whether that's based on gender or anything else.

 

My own theory (opinion not fact alert!) is that it's linked to Britain's own decline in wealth and influence. Economic growth and good living standards are no longer a given in this country which has led to more focus on those groups that are perceived to still be relatively wealthy and powerful.

Edited 4 April by bovril

[leicsmac]

21 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00290bg

 

This was a good listen about the topic as it goes through the example @bovrilraised far more eloquently than I could.

 

They discussed many reviews undertaken within education that in the pursuit of empowering girls to be more driven and aspirational, there has been a measurable drop in the equivalent behaviour towards boys leading to a drop in self confidence and the rise in incel behaviour.

 

Everyone was of the view that it didn't need to be a zero sum game but that boys are being painted as problematic and now have Lowe expectations that is driving poor behaviour in early adulthood. Some examples given were many school rewarded boys for simply not f**king up compares to girls who were incentivised to push themselves and obtain the developmental benefits that provided. 

It certainly doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

 

Look after both boys and girls while making sure that those that want the old bigotries to return (because yes, that is a big problem right now) are neutralised.

 

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

Thanks. I realise my post was a bit "source: trust me bro" so I appreciate the back up.

 

Obviously in the last decade or so in many countries we've seen more focus on challenging traditional power structures and disempowering traditionally dominant groups, while trying to raise up those groups that usually lacked institutional power. I suppose a lot of it is with good intentions but I remain unconvinced how successful or beneficial the often ham-fisted British version of it is. Like Amol says at 16 I wouldn't have known what "the patriarchy" was, and I don't think making people hyper aware of their problematic social status is really the best way forward, whether that's based on gender or anything else.

 

My own theory (opinion not fact alert!) is that it's linked to Britain's own decline in wealth and influence. Economic growth and good living standards are no longer a given in this country which has led to more focus on those groups that are perceived to still be relatively wealthy and powerful.

Interesting, really: there's a lot of debate about whether economic problems feed into social ones, or vice versa, or both.

 

My take on that one is that it's bloody difficult to know and each situation is different.

 

I will say this though; when was the last time there was a statistically significant number of girls who engaged in mass violence towards their peer group because of matters like this? That's another facet of it for me; again, purely opinion, but the decision making of blokes when it comes to a lot of things tends to me much more consequential towards other people, if that's a halfway decent way of expressing it.

[bovril]

I think the key thing in that radio programme is that young people believe their eyes not their ears. We don't just need to lecture, for want of a better word, we need to provide examples. And in my own opinion, positive examples are sorely lacking in modern society, for whatever reason.

 

 

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, bovril said:

I think the key thing in that radio programme is that young people believe their eyes not their ears. We don't just need to lecture, for want of a better word, we need to provide examples. And in my own opinion, positive examples are sorely lacking in modern society, for whatever reason.

 

 

The failure of the deficit model of communication highlighted very well there, yes.

[Foxdiamond]

23 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

It certainly doesn't have to be a zero sum game.

 

Look after both boys and girls while making sure that those that want the old bigotries to return (because yes, that is a big problem right now) are neutralised.

 

Interesting, really: there's a lot of debate about whether economic problems feed into social ones, or vice versa, or both.

 

My take on that one is that it's bloody difficult to know and each situation is different.

 

I will say this though; when was the last time there was a statistically significant number of girls who engaged in mass violence towards their peer group because of matters like this? That's another facet of it for me; again, purely opinion, but the decision making of blokes when it comes to a lot of things tends to me much more consequential towards other people, if that's a halfway decent way of expressing it.

There have been cases of groups of both young men and girls engaging in mass mob violence organised online.  3 teenage girls all under 18 recently charged for manslaughter of 75 year old man in north London as he was waiting for a bus

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

There have been cases of groups of both young men and girls engaging in mass mob violence organised online.  3 teenage girls all under 18 recently charged for manslaughter of 75 year old man in north London as he was waiting for a bus

I don't doubt it.

 

But I would draw attention to the "statistically significant" part of my last post.

 

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm reasonably sure that throughout the history and present time that they've been disenfranchised, quite a lot less women proportionally have turned to forms of violence against other people as an attempt to sort those problems out than blokes. If it weren't the case, the history books would run far more red with such incidents than they already do.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

I don't doubt it.

 

But I would draw attention to the "statistically significant" part of my last post.

 

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm reasonably sure that throughout the history and present time that they've been disenfranchised, quite a lot less women proportionally have turned to forms of violence against other people as an attempt to sort those problems out than blokes. If it weren't the case, the history books would run far more red with such incidents than they already do.

I don't think anyone is doubting the problem, just debating the solution. It's like depression - we're told to talk about it and we talk about it more than ever, and yet our society seems to be more depressed than ever.

 

No doubt male on female violence is an issue, and it frightens me very much. I just believe the solution lies not in teaching men about the inherent problem of masculinity, but more in providing strong role models for men, models that are often now seen as problematic in the UK. 

[Foxdiamond]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I don't doubt it.

 

But I would draw attention to the "statistically significant" part of my last post.

 

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm reasonably sure that throughout the history and present time that they've been disenfranchised, quite a lot less women proportionally have turned to forms of violence against other people as an attempt to sort those problems out than blokes. If it weren't the case, the history books would run far more red with such incidents than they already do.

I don't disagree. What I am concerned about here is youth criminality as a whole. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, bovril said:

I don't think anyone is doubting the problem, just debating the solution. It's like depression - we're told to talk about it and we talk about it more than ever, and yet our society seems to be more depressed than ever.

 

No doubt male on female violence is an issue, and it frightens me very much. I just believe the solution lies not in teaching men about the inherent problem of masculinity, but more in providing strong role models for men, models that are often now seen as problematic in the UK. 

 

2 minutes ago, Foxdiamond said:

I don't disagree. What I am concerned about here is youth criminality as a whole. 

No disagreement here either.

 

The problem is complex, but finding the solution is a critical part of advancing forward as a society.

 

NB. I'm reasonably sure that those in the past had issues with depression and other forms of mental atypicality, it just wasn't talked about as much or simply dismissed. They certainly had every reason to be depressed about their lives, given how hard almost all of them must have had it by comparison to today.

[Foxdiamond]

7 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

No disagreement here either.

 

The problem is complex, but finding the solution is a critical part of advancing forward as a society.

 

NB. I'm reasonably sure that those in the past had issues with depression and other forms of mental atypicality, it just wasn't talked about as much or simply dismissed. They certainly had every reason to be depressed about their lives, given how hard almost all of them must have had it by comparison to today.

Definitely complex. I think it ties in with the thread about the demise of the quest to make a fairer society. Also the lack of a moral code in how some people live. Do what you want when you want and don't care about anybody else. Not just youngsters but older people too.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, Foxdiamond said:

Definitely complex. I think it ties in with the thread about the demise of the quest to make a fairer society. Also the lack of a moral code in how some people live. Do what you want when you want and don't care about anybody else. Not just youngsters but older people too.

rise of secularism too, but y'all not ready to have that conversation 

[leicsmac]

14 minutes ago, bovril said:

rise of secularism too, but y'all not ready to have that conversation 

Nah, what the supposed moral code inflicted by all parts of the Abrahamic religions on society has itself inflicted...

 

... you're right, we really shouldn't have that conversation.

[bovril]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Nah, what the supposed moral code inflicted by all parts of the Abrahamic religions on society has itself inflicted...

Thank God we've left all that behind since the enlightenment 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, bovril said:

Thank God we've left all that behind since the enlightenment 

Apparently.

[Parafox]

Taking a (probably ridiculous) diversion off topic, I was chucking our old well used wok down at the tip and "wok songs" popped into my head.

 

Wok This Way

Wok and Woll is King

Wok DJ...

 

There must be hundreds of Wok related songs...

 

 

 

[Nalis]

I've only heard about Charlie Bigham and seen him in cartoon form but he comes across as a very smug punchable bloke