ZINCHENKO

[Scotch]

It's getting quiet frustrating trying to explain to folk over and over again that he isn't a natural LB. He's a CM. A quick two minute google search on the guy would tell you that. 

 

If you dont think he's good enough, fair play. 

 

If you think he would be too expensive for being essentially a squad player, I won't argue but being against this transfer based on the fact we have other LB's when he is naturally a more creative central player. 

 

Here's a video of him before Pep put him at left wingback (notice that he played most of his games for PSV as an inside RW) 

 

 

[rico]

I thought he had a good game last night and has always done a decent job when he plays , cant see why people think hes not good enough surely Pep wouldnt play him if he was that bad...?

[Blanchflower78]

He is a good young player, plays the right way and can develop further. Ticks the boxes and if we are looking to shift Hamza then a great switch imo.

 

[Ric Flair]

52 minutes ago, rico said:

I thought he had a good game last night and has always done a decent job when he plays , cant see why people think hes not good enough surely Pep wouldnt play him if he was that bad...?

I think its more that he's a player who has been converted in to a position we don't really need another signing in at the minute and as a midfielder he's not any better than what we've got so essentially he'd be another squad player which is down on our list of priorities. 

[Grebfromgrebland]

I think he'd be a decent Albrighton type player with more skill who can also play full back and in the centre of the park.

 

He'd make a smart addition to the squad especially if we offload Hamza in Jan.

[Facecloth]

I was having the discussion yesterday about this potential signing. All the talk about him being versatile, wheres the proof? I know Man City signed him as a midfielder and he filled in at left back, but he hardly ever played in midfield at the level we're looking at. He's played well at left back, but we're OK in the full back areas at the moment, and I feel the fee, and expectation will be based on his performances in that role whilst we are playing him is midfield. If you signed Messi for £150m and played him at centre back, you wouldn't be getting a £150m player would you. I don't see him as a midfielder until he's actually had some considerable game time at this level there, so its a no from me.

[Saxondale]

On 06/01/2021 at 00:22, NewEnglandFox said:

Iheanacho, Dodoo, Bakayogo.

Peter Cannero.

[Scotch]

4 hours ago, Facecloth said:

I was having the discussion yesterday about this potential signing. All the talk about him being versatile, wheres the proof? I know Man City signed him as a midfielder and he filled in at left back, but he hardly ever played in midfield at the level we're looking at. He's played well at left back, but we're OK in the full back areas at the moment, and I feel the fee, and expectation will be based on his performances in that role whilst we are playing him is midfield. If you signed Messi for £150m and played him at centre back, you wouldn't be getting a £150m player would you. I don't see him as a midfielder until he's actually had some considerable game time at this level there, so its a no from me.

Poor comparison. Messi doesn't play regularly at CB....

[Facecloth]

8 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

Poor comparison. Messi doesn't play regularly at CB....

Erm and Zinchenko doesn't play regularly in midfield does he.

[Scotch]

3 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Erm and Zinchenko doesn't play regularly in midfield does he.

Well.....yeah. since being at Man City he's started 48 games, vast majority of which being at LB. In that same timeframe he has played 35 times for Ukraine almost exclusively in midfield.

I would call that fairly regularly. 

[Facecloth]

15 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

Well.....yeah. since being at Man City he's started 48 games, vast majority of which being at LB. In that same timeframe he has played 35 times for Ukraine almost exclusively in midfield.

I would call that fairly regularly. 

I would call that sporadic, due to the nature of international football. I also wouldn't call that proof of his ability at premier league level to play in that position and improve us there. People have been impressed by what he's shown as a left back at Man City and somehow that's convinced them he's what we need on midfield. Nah, you're alright.

[Scotch]

10 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

I would call that sporadic, due to the nature of international football. I also wouldn't call that proof of his ability at premier league level to play in that position and improve us there. People have been impressed by what he's shown as a left back at Man City and somehow that's convinced them he's what we need on midfield. Nah, you're alright.

But your initial point was, where is the proof that he is versatile? He plays almost as much in midfield as he does LB and when he does play in midfield, he plays as a #10, #8 or part of a two man pivot and he does it at international level. That's versatility. 

Not to mention that Man City saw enough in him as a RW to sign him in the first place. 

 

I've not saw anyone argue that he would improve our starting 11. I have however saw people argue (myself included) that he would improve our squad, in a variety of positions. He's currently better than Thomas and Fuchs at LB, he's an upgrade on Hamza as an all round CM and he's prob not too far off Praet as an AM. 

 

What we are getting at is for a fair price, we would be a better squad with him in it. 

[Facecloth]

1 hour ago, Foxy_Bear said:

But your initial point was, where is the proof that he is versatile? He plays almost as much in midfield as he does LB and when he does play in midfield, he plays as a #10, #8 or part of a two man pivot and he does it at international level. That's versatility. 

Not to mention that Man City saw enough in him as a RW to sign him in the first place. 

 

I've not saw anyone argue that he would improve our starting 11. I have however saw people argue (myself included) that he would improve our squad, in a variety of positions. He's currently better than Thomas and Fuchs at LB, he's an upgrade on Hamza as an all round CM and he's prob not too far off Praet as an AM. 

 

What we are getting at is for a fair price, we would be a better squad with him in it. 

Well I'd say international level is nowhere near premier league level. Playing in various positions and playing well in various positions are two very different things. Also being the best midfielder for a very average international team doesn't make you good. I could be good enough to play up front for Malta, doesn't mean I'm a good striker. I'll also point out that Man City saw enough in Iheanacho to sign him before flogging him to us to use as an understudy, thats worked out well has it.

 

He probably is better than Fuchs at left back but I question why we'd want to stiffle Thomas' development. In the summer you could have argued about doing the same with Justin, we didn't and look what we've ended up with, a quality fullback. Replacing young back up isn't always a good idea, you might end up losing a special player. He might be an improvement on Hamza, but he's 3rd choice anyway and again  you have no real data to support that other than he's better than some other Ukrainians in that positions. Same goes for the Praet comment. I genuinely don't see him getting a sniff anywhere in the team.

 

If we want a midfielder, heres a crazy suggestion, why don't we go and buy someone that at least someone else rates highly enough to play there. I certainly see midfield as an area we can add to in depth, but long term I don't think this is the answer. 

Edited 7 January 2021 by Facecloth

[Scotch]

47 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

Well I'd say international level is nowhere near premier league level. Playing in various positions and playing well in various positions are two very different things. Also being the best midfielder for a very average international team doesn't make you good. I could be good enough to play up front for Malta, doesn't mean I'm a good striker. I'll also point out that Man City saw enough in Iheanacho to sign him before flogging him to us to use as an understudy, thats worked out well has it.

 

He probably is better than Fuchs at left back but I question why we'd want to stiffle Thomas' development. In the summer you could have argued about doing the same with Justin, we didn't and look what we've ended up with, a quality fullback. Replacing young back up isn't always a good idea, you might end up losing a special player. He might be an improvement on Hamza, but he's 3rd choice anyway and again  you have no real data to support that other than he's better than some other Ukrainians in that positions. Same goes for the Praet comment. I genuinely don't see him getting a sniff anywhere in the team.

 

If we want a midfielder, heres a crazy suggestion, why don't we go and buy someone that at least someone else rates highly enough to play there. I certainly see midfield as an area we can add to in depth, but long term I don't think this is the answer. 

 

I think you are being quiet flippant about the quality Ukraine have in their squad. We are talking about a good young squad who conceded 4 goals and scored 17 whilst going unbeaten and winning a euro qualifying group that included Portugal. 

 

Also, you talk about no-one rating him enough to play him in CM whilst talking about how he plays there for Ukraine under a very decent manager in Shevchenko as he did for another good coach in Phillip Cocu whilst at PSV.

In reality only one coach so far has saw fit to move him to FB and it's a coach who plays a system with inverted WBs that play very much like CM's

[Scotch]

Listen @Facecloth, you asked for proof of his versatility, I feel I've provided more than enough evidence of him playing in numerous positions. Wether or not you rate him in those positions is your own opinion but his versatility in unquestionable.

 

I'm fully aware of your reputation for engaging folk in debates so I think I've indulged you enough for tonight and I'll let you hunt out another victim. 

 

Take care and stay safe, pal. 

[Facecloth]

18 minutes ago, Foxy_Bear said:

Listen @Facecloth, you asked for proof of his versatility, I feel I've provided more than enough evidence of him playing in numerous positions. Wether or not you rate him in those positions is your own opinion but his versatility in unquestionable.

 

I'm fully aware of your reputation for engaging folk in debates so I think I've indulged you enough for tonight and I'll let you hunt out another victim. 

 

Take care and stay safe, pal. 

If people don't indulge in debates then the forum dies. Its the whole premise a forum 

Edited 7 January 2021 by Facecloth

[AllGoneTitsSchlupp]

think this would be a good signing. i've always thought he was decent. comes across really well in the amazon man city doco too

[The_77]

1 hour ago, Facecloth said:

If people don't indulge in debates then the forum dies. Its the whole premise a forum 

Having to drag out explanations to you isn’t the point of a forum. 

[Facecloth]

4 minutes ago, The_77 said:

Having to drag out explanations to you isn’t the point of a forum. 

Wow, aren't you a ****.

 

He has his "explanation" I have mine. Other less twatish people call it opinion, and were all entitled to them.

Edited 7 January 2021 by Facecloth

[The_77]

2 hours ago, Facecloth said:

Well I'd say international level is nowhere near premier league level. Playing in various positions and playing well in various positions are two very different things. Also being the best midfielder for a very average international team doesn't make you good. I could be good enough to play up front for Malta, doesn't mean I'm a good striker. I'll also point out that Man City saw enough in Iheanacho to sign him before flogging him to us to use as an understudy, thats worked out well has it.

 

He probably is better than Fuchs at left back but I question why we'd want to stiffle Thomas' development. In the summer you could have argued about doing the same with Justin, we didn't and look what we've ended up with, a quality fullback. Replacing young back up isn't always a good idea, you might end up losing a special player. He might be an improvement on Hamza, but he's 3rd choice anyway and again  you have no real data to support that other than he's better than some other Ukrainians in that positions. Same goes for the Praet comment. I genuinely don't see him getting a sniff anywhere in the team.

 

If we want a midfielder, heres a crazy suggestion, why don't we go and buy someone that at least someone else rates highly enough to play there. I certainly see midfield as an area we can add to in depth, but long term I don't think this is the answer. 

In Justin we have a versatile player who can play any position across the backline when needed. If this season has proven anything, it’s that versatility is a necessity right now. Now, I don’t know if we’re actually in for Zinchenko (his name has popped up in the past) but he’s a skillful player who would have something to offer to a lot of clubs in the league. 

[Facecloth]

1 minute ago, The_77 said:

In Justin we have a versatile player who can play any position across the backline when needed. If this season has proven anything, it’s that versatility is a necessity right now. Now, I don’t know if we’re actually in for Zinchenko (his name has popped up in the past) but he’s a skillful player who would have something to offer to a lot of clubs in the league. 

And my argument is i don't think he does, not for our level anyway. We've not seen enough in enough positions to prove he improves us as an option in any areas. I don't deny he versatile, but is he good enough in all those roles. He won't be cheap and he won't want a small wage either. I don't mind taking a risk on a Justin type player, but we've signed far too many players over the years who've cost us a packet and offered very little.