US Presidential Election 2024

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Lionator said:

Problem is ‘I want peace’ is a much better electioneering tagline than ‘we’ll keep arming Ukraine, we’ll keep letting Israel bomb innocent Gaza’s ‘, even if it causes worse long term outcomes. 

Yep, another example of perception and short term thinking overriding facts.

 

If those long term outcomes are worse (and they will be), that thinking and those who bought into it will all be culpable.

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, Lionator said:

Problem is ‘I want peace’ is a much better electioneering tagline than ‘we’ll keep arming Ukraine, we’ll keep letting Israel bomb innocent Gaza’s ‘, even if it causes worse long term outcomes. 

Whatever the question, Trump cannot possibly be the answer. Right wing populism is a cancer eating away at western democracy, and I see no end to it.

Edited 27 October 2024 by WigstonWanderer

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said:

Whatever the question, Trump cannot possibly be the answer. Right wing populism is a cancer eating away at western democracy, and I see no end to it.

Depends on the question.

 

If it's "Do you like women as subservient, most ethnic minorities as inherently inferior, LGBT people as an abomination, and your biosphere as expendable?" then he certainly is the answer.

 

Agree with the second sentence, but I fear there will be an end to it - one that will suit practically no one.

[leicsmac]

Something I've been mulling over for the moment:

 

In the case of a Trump administration from next January, how should the UK government proceed with cooperation with that administration?

 

Tell him what he wants to hear and do something else? Go the "China-style" route where a leading government is ideologically opposed to a lot of UK values but cooperation with them on some matters is necessary and press those points where needed? Just decide the argument isn't worth the diplomatic capital and roll over?

[Grebfromgrebland]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on the question.

 

If it's "Do you like women as subservient, most ethnic minorities as inherently inferior, LGBT people as an abomination, and your biosphere as expendable?" then he certainly is the answer.

 

Agree with the second sentence, but I fear there will be an end to it - one that will suit practically no one.

Unfortunately with the rise of the right wing and certain religions at least 2 out of 3 of those things are on the rise. The third is unstoppable.

[grobyfox1990]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Depends on the question.

 

If it's "Do you like women as subservient, most ethnic minorities as inherently inferior, LGBT people as an abomination, and your biosphere as expendable?" then he certainly is the answer.

 

Agree with the second sentence, but I fear there will be an end to it - one that will suit practically no one.

Don’t think he’s clever enough to believe any of that. He only respects money and power, regardless of gender or race, which makes him the perfect American leader. I don’t think he likes the all American man on the street more than the Saudis because of skin colour, hence he was cosying up to the Saudis on his first term. 

[Sampson]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Something I've been mulling over for the moment:

 

In the case of a Trump administration from next January, how should the UK government proceed with cooperation with that administration?

 

Tell him what he wants to hear and do something else? Go the "China-style" route where a leading government is ideologically opposed to a lot of UK values but cooperation with them on some matters is necessary and press those points where needed? Just decide the argument isn't worth the diplomatic capital and roll over?

I don’t think Trump gives one hoot about Europe so I doubt it matters much what the UK does. The idea of “the west” being important with the US, Canada, Western & Central Europe have past now I think. The US cares a lot more about the goings on and trying to get on with Asia far more than Europe nowadays. 

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Don’t think he’s clever enough to believe any of that. He only respects money and power, regardless of gender or race, which makes him the perfect American leader. I don’t think he likes the all American man on the street more than the Saudis because of skin colour, hence he was cosying up to the Saudis on his first term. 

Possibly not, however a significant part of his voting bloc, enough to set policy and appoint Supreme Court judges, do, so effects are pretty similar.

 

2 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I don’t think Trump gives one hoot about Europe so I doubt it matters much what the UK does. The idea of “the west” being important with the US, Canada, Western & Central Europe have past now I think. The US cares a lot more about the goings on and trying to get on with Asia far more than Europe nowadays. 

That could well be right.

 

About a hundred years ago there were a lot of voices in the US talking similarly re Europe and the Pacific, it's darkly humorous sometimes how history can be cyclic.

[LiberalFox]

America is the original source of the culture wars, has a stupid electoral system and unfortunately has an impact on us. (plus I have family in the US). 

 

Trump should be nowhere near the white house. His enduring popularity speaks to the state of the American electorate. 

 

Just like us they are an empire in decline. The question is who will replace them and what impact that will have on our way of life. 

[bovril]

36 minutes ago, LiberalFox said:

America is the original source of the culture wars, has a stupid electoral system and unfortunately has an impact on us. (plus I have family in the US). 

 

Trump should be nowhere near the white house. His enduring popularity speaks to the state of the American electorate. 

 

Just like us they are an empire in decline. The question is who will replace them and what impact that will have on our way of life. 

UK has been in decline since the early 20th century, and we lost our Empire nearly 80 years ago. Obviously that decline has sped up since 2008 because of suicidal macroeconomic policy.

 

I don't think America is in decline. Economically they have pulled further away from Europe and militarily they are still incredibly powerful. Culturally they are probably the most powerful country of all time. You have young people in London affecting American accents and mannerisms. 

 

So for me it's not who will replace America but where they lead us next. It's more 27BC than than 476AD

Edited 27 October 2024 by bovril

[LiberalFox]

7 minutes ago, bovril said:

UK has been in decline since the early 20th century, and we lost our Empire nearly 80 years ago. Obviously that decline has sped up since 2008 because of suicidal macroeconomic policy.

 

I don't think America is in decline. Economically they have pulled further away from Europe and militarily they are still incredibly powerful. Culturally they are the most powerful state of all time. You have young people in London affecting American accents and mannerisms. 

 

So for me it's not who will replace America but where they lead us next. It's more 27BC than than 476AD

I keep flip flopping on this if I'm honest because it's easy to read the US as in decline due to foreign policy outcomes and economically losing out to China over time. 

 

I have US friends who are adamant the country is on the brink of irrelevance and the comparisons to the Roman Empire are made. 

 

Actually I don't really know but I think as I get older I crave stability a bit more and definitely find myself less concerned with moral purity when it comes to geopolitics. 

 

A strong America is better than one where rogue states and authoritarian regimes hostile to our values are allowed to dominate. 

[bovril]

2 hours ago, Sampson said:

I don’t think Trump gives one hoot about Europe so I doubt it matters much what the UK does. The idea of “the west” being important with the US, Canada, Western & Central Europe have past now I think. The US cares a lot more about the goings on and trying to get on with Asia far more than Europe nowadays. 

He might not care about us, but we should care because the US is by far our biggest export market.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/trade-and-investment-core-statistics-book/trade-and-investment-core-statistics-book#goods-exports

I know very little about import and export stuff but If he gets in and follows through with his tariff threat I'm pretty sure that is bad news. 

[grobyfox1990]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

I keep flip flopping on this if I'm honest because it's easy to read the US as in decline due to foreign policy outcomes and economically losing out to China over time. 

 

I have US friends who are adamant the country is on the brink of irrelevance and the comparisons to the Roman Empire are made. 

 

Actually I don't really know but I think as I get older I crave stability a bit more and definitely find myself less concerned with moral purity when it comes to geopolitics. 

 

A strong America is better than one where rogue states and authoritarian regimes hostile to our values are allowed to dominate. 

This is more my opinion. You have huge parts that have just been left behind, I’ve been all over the world and I’ve never seen poverty like it in the USA, contextually anyway. It’s like they packed off the industry to Mexico and the far east, shut the lights and forgot people still live in these towns. That and the fentanyl crisis ofc 

[leicsmac]

The disparity in wealth and resources between rich and poor in the US is insane.

 

What is truly bizarre is that so many people actually believe something so obviously bullshit that Trump is going to address that inequality on any scale at all.

[bovril]

2 hours ago, LiberalFox said:

I keep flip flopping on this if I'm honest because it's easy to read the US as in decline due to foreign policy outcomes and economically losing out to China over time. 

 

I have US friends who are adamant the country is on the brink of irrelevance and the comparisons to the Roman Empire are made. 

 

Actually I don't really know but I think as I get older I crave stability a bit more and definitely find myself less concerned with moral purity when it comes to geopolitics. 

 

A strong America is better than one where rogue states and authoritarian regimes hostile to our values are allowed to dominate. 

Yeah I do too tbh. My conclusion is that their society is very sick but the empire is as strong as ever. And we in the anglosphere are on the front line as you said in your previous post.

[Dunge]

I believe the UK and France are seen a useful part of American security, given soft power reach around the world. Germany probably counts in that as well. As for the rest of Europe, there are definitely those in the Republican Party who look at them and go “why are we funding their security?”

[leicsmac]

27 minutes ago, Dunge said:

I believe the UK and France are seen a useful part of American security, given soft power reach around the world. Germany probably counts in that as well. As for the rest of Europe, there are definitely those in the Republican Party who look at them and go “why are we funding their security?”

Well, considering that a lot of Repubs wouldn't fund the healthcare or welfare of the guy fifteen minutes down the road, I guess that's a pretty predictable attitude.

 

Stupidly short-sighted and individualistic, but predictable.

 

 

[MPH]

6 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Something I've been mulling over for the moment:

 

In the case of a Trump administration from next January, how should the UK government proceed with cooperation with that administration?

 

Tell him what he wants to hear and do something else? Go the "China-style" route where a leading government is ideologically opposed to a lot of UK values but cooperation with them on some matters is necessary and press those points where needed? Just decide the argument isn't worth the diplomatic capital and roll over?

 

well I don’t think they’ve helped themselves with regards to sending all the Labour staff to campaign for Harris. His ego will take that very personally and you can see why. 

 

 

I do know that The Americans share a lot of intelligence info with the UK with regards to terrorist attacks and foiling the plots.  And there is an element of a protectionist relationship too.
 

That alone should  help them to form

some sort of cooperative relationship even if not politically aligned.

 

Look at Trump as that annoying person who’s on your school project team that you have to tolerate until the project is over ( 4 years), because he has an important part he’s doing.

Edited 27 October 2024 by MPH

[Trav Le Bleu]

21 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

Look at Trump as that annoying person who’s on your school project team that you have to tolerate until the project is over ( 4 years), because he has an important part he’s doing.

Oh, he's waaay more than that.

 

He's the kid who knows everything and nothing, who mocks everyone who doesn't agree with him, who plays with knives and leches at girls in the playground.

 

He's from rich stock, so the teachers don't dare discipline him, not to mention he's friends with the weird South African kid who's got even more money and Mikhail, who's temperamental and likes to put stuff in the other kid's food.

 

There's attempts at education, but it doesn't go in, cos as mentioned, he knows it all already. Officially he's the cheerleader's jock boyfriend, though they never seem to hang out together.

 

It's a shame really, cos it's a nice school, but he tries his damnedest to make sure no one can get in from outside, though without much success (the wall of gym benches being only three benches long).

 

Oh, and after the 4 year project, when everything has gone to hell in a handcart... that'll be all your fault.

Edited 27 October 2024 by Trav Le Bleu

[MPH]

1 hour ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Oh, he's waaay more than that.

 

He's the kid who knows everything and nothing, who mocks everyone who doesn't agree with him, who plays with knives and leches at girls in the playground.

 

He's from rich stock, so the teachers don't dare discipline him, not to mention he's friends with the weird South African kid who's got even more money and Mikhail, who's temperamental and likes to put stuff in the other kid's food.

 

There's attempts at education, but it doesn't go in, cos as mentioned, he knows it all already. Officially he's the cheerleader's jock boyfriend, though they never seem to hang out together.

 

It's a shame really, cos it's a nice school, but he tries his damnedest to make sure no one can get in from outside, though without much success (the wall of gym benches being only three benches long).

 

Oh, and after the 4 year project, when everything has gone to hell in a handcart... that'll be all your fault.

 

He’s still seething that he wasn’t elected as class prefect… he’s saying that Mrs Hones wanted  her son to be prefect and made sure he got the votes. He won’t forget it it..

[MPH]

Another potentially important development… The Washington post, for the first time since the 70s, have refused to endorse the Democratic Candidate for the presidency..

[WigstonWanderer]

1 hour ago, MPH said:

Another potentially important development… The Washington post, for the first time since the 70s, have refused to endorse the Democratic Candidate for the presidency..

Bezos keeping his head down in case Trump gets in. Won’t want any retribution that might affect his business. Probably see a lot more of this sort of thing.

[The Horse's Mouth]

2 hours ago, MPH said:

Another potentially important development… The Washington post, for the first time since the 70s, have refused to endorse the Democratic Candidate for the presidency..

Not a surprise, dems sabotaged themselves with that ticket 

[leicsmac]

Again, if people want to blame the Dems for all this and stump for Trump for their own short-term economic reasons, that's between them and their own conscience.

 

I just wonder, a while down the line, all those people outside his and his supporters favoured demographic that suffer and those in other places forced to migrate or die due to changes that he didn't care about and are looking to find those culpable and to hold people accountable for it hold the same understanding disposition. I doubt it.

 

Given all that's happened over the last eightish years, "Not Trump" should be an entirely legit political position on its own and I'm yet to hear a cogent or anywhere convincing argument otherwise.

[leicsmac]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-18/america’s-last-election:-the-big-lie/104492066

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-26/america’s-last-election-part-2:-the-fake-elector/104520604

 

Good deep dive by the Aussies about last time round.