1969 Moon Landing

[marko]

I've also missed the part as to why the Russians would be happy to cover-up a fake landing when they wanted to prove their superiority over America?!?

Well to understand that I'm afraid blind faith, denial and stupidity are required.

[breadandcheese]

Because of course, they were all chums and only staging a fake fight as ordered by the reptilian Candians trying to impose a NWO.

So America and the Soviet Union were bff's. Now I understand. History's so funny. To think that I used to believe that Soviet pilots shot down American planes in Korea and that the Americans helped arm the Mujhadeen against the Soviets. How foolish.

Well to understand that I'm afraid blind faith, denial and stupidity are required.

I am a Leicester fan.

[AdamN]

Anything past the Van Allen Belts is space, but what's underneath the belts is just the earth's playground area that mankind will never get out of. We're trapped underneath the Van Allens forever and ever and ever and ever.....

That last sentence is my science fact of the day.

I answered your point about the Van Allen belts in the other moon landing thread, yet you chose to conveniently ignore it. Note the use of facts and figures to back up the quotes:

http://imagine.gsfc....rs/980119b.html

"The hard radiation (particles and x/gamma rays) from the non-flaring Sun is small compared to the galactic cosmic ray exposure. These particles come from deep space more or less continuously. Small amounts of shielding can cut out the majority of this, but the remainder will give you a somewhat increased risk of cancer. Using very conservative rules of thumb, a week in space's cosmic ray environment will shorten your life expectancy by about a day (statistically--it is very unlikely to give you cancer, but if it does, it will shorten your life by more than a day). Since space is inherently dangerous at the present state of the art, cancer due to cosmic rays is relatively small additional risk."

http://lsda.jsc.nasa...pollo/S2ch3.htm

"The effect of high-energy cosmic rays on humans is unknown but is considered by most authorities not to be of serious concern for exposures of less than a few years."

http://en.wikipedia....rom_cosmic_rays (cites http://ntrs.nasa.gov..._2007005310.pdf and http://icrc2005.tifr...1-sh35-oral.pdf)

"Exposures on the ISS average 150 mSv per year, although frequent crew rotations minimize individual risk. Astronauts on Apollo and Skylab missions received on average 1.2 mSv/day and 1.4 mSv/day respectively. Since the durations of the Apollo and Skylab missions were days and months, respectively, rather than years, the doses involved were smaller than would be expected on future long-term missions such as to a near-Earth asteroid or to Mars (unless far more shielding could be provided)."

"Estimates are that humans unshielded in interplanetary space would receive annually roughly 400 to 900 milliSieverts (mSv) (compared to 2.4 mSv on Earth) and that a Mars mission (12 months in flight and 18 months on Mars) might expose shielded astronauts to ~500 to 1000 mSv. These doses approach the 1 to 4 Sv career limits advised by the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements for Low Earth orbit activities."

Going by those figures I can't see why a week-long venture beyond the Van Allen belt wouldn't be possible. Unless you're doubting it for more than just health reasons...

[Bob Weasel Fox]

of course it happened, its when we finally discovered the moon was made of cheese . . . . . . . .

[AdamN]

of course it happened, its when we finally discovered the moon was made of cheese . . . . . . . .

I believe it was Wallace and Gromit that discovered that.

[OzFox]

Well you just toddle off to China and telll them how to build a manned rocket to the moon cuz those idiots can't seemto fathom it out and don't expect to get there for at least another 12 years

What are you going to say if they come back with a faded American flag and a couple of golf balls? Wait...let me guess....Made in China?

If that was a hoax, it was an expensive one. They've still got a spare Saturn V rocket lying around at Kennedy Space centre

[Zingari]

What are you going to say if they come back with a faded American flag and a couple of golf balls? Wait...let me guess....Made in China?

If that was a hoax, it was an expensive one. They've still got a spare Saturn V rocket lying around at Kennedy Space centre

I agree, if it was a hoax it was indeed a very expensive one. But bearing in mind that the Gulf of Tonkin was an elaborate hoax, how much do you reckon that little scam cost in dollars and lives in Vietnam? Good hoaxes don’t come cheap you know.

Have you never heard the saying “out of little acorns come mighty hoax�

Well what that saying forgets to mention is that for every acorn that makes a good hoax , there are millions and millions that are sacrificed .

Or something like that,

So there. !

[ozleicester]

I agree, if it was a hoax it was indeed a very expensive one. But bearing in mind that the Gulf of Tonkin was an elaborate hoax, how much do you reckon that little scam cost in dollars and lives in Vietnam? Good hoaxes don’t come cheap you know.

Have you never heard the saying “out of little acorns come mighty hoax�

Well what that saying forgets to mention is that for every acorn that makes a good hoax , there are millions and millions that are sacrificed .

Or something like that,

So there. !

So Zing... do you actually believe the moon landing was faked?

[Zingari]

So Zing... do you actually believe the moon landing was faked?

I've absolutely no idea what to believe oz mate , what about you ?

Some of the questions about the ability of NASA to achieve what they did at the time really do seem relevant and the photographs and filming does seem highly questionable but then some of the reasons to believe they actually did it are convincing too .

I agree with Empty though , that until it is repeated and we're given some sort of cast iron proof ( i really don't know what that might be) i'll remain more than a bit suspicious .

I suppose as i'm getting older nothing seems as black and white anymore .

The last thing I want though is for the people who truly believe in anything that may seem outlandish at first , to be bullied and browbeaten into shutting up , Even if they are wrong , the world needs them .

what's your take ?

edit;

OK , If my life depended on the answer and I had to choose a door with "real or hoax", with the outcome of choosing the wrong door being a fall to my death , I'd choose hoax.

But then again there's probably not many good years of my life left to worry about losing !!

[ozleicester]

I've absolutely no idea what to believe oz mate , what about you ?

Some of the questions about the ability of NASA to achieve what they did at the time really do seem relevant and the photographs and filming does seem highly questionable but then some of the reasons to believe they actually did it are convincing too .

I agree with Empty though , that until it is repeated and we're given some sort of cast iron proof ( i really don't know what that might be) i'll remain more than a bit suspicious .

I suppose as i'm getting older nothing seems as black and white anymore .

The last thing I want though is for the people who truly believe in anything that may seem outlandish at first , to be bullied and browbeaten into shutting up , Even if they are wrong , the world needs them .

what's your take ?

I can honestly say that... for as many conspiracy theories i am open to, this is not one.

For me evidence that has been presented by the "unbelievers" seems to have always been reasonably clearly proven to be incorrect.

The fact that this would require co-operation between the US and USSR at a time when even talking to each other was difficult, add to that the evidence at the time, the involvement of hundreds/thousands..possibly tens of thousands of people outside of the US who would be required to keep mum about it.. just is too much for me.

Also, as there were Aussies involved in the broadcast of the landing (see the mildly funny movie - The Dish) they would be the first to try and screw over any secrecy...Aussies love nothing better than making the Yanks look like fools... well except possibly making the English look like fools.

So on this occasion im happy to be part of the gullible masses that accepts the government line, but like you... more power to anyone who wants to stand up and proclaim their distrust.

[purpleronnie]

I've absolutely no idea what to believe oz mate , what about you ?

Some of the questions about the ability of NASA to achieve what they did at the time really do seem relevant and the photographs and filming does seem highly questionable but then some of the reasons to believe they actually did it are convincing too .

I agree with Empty though , that until it is repeated and we're given some sort of cast iron proof ( i really don't know what that might be) i'll remain more than a bit suspicious .

I suppose as i'm getting older nothing seems as black and white anymore .

The last thing I want though is for the people who truly believe in anything that may seem outlandish at first , to be bullied and browbeaten into shutting up , Even if they are wrong , the world needs them .

what's your take ?

edit;

OK , If my life depended on the answer and I had to choose a door with "real or hoax", with the outcome of choosing the wrong door being a fall to my death , I'd choose hoax.

But then again there's probably not many good years of my life left to worry about losing !!

but dont you think theres more proof than not...alot more, it just seems so strange that people want to believe that its a hoax and it sullies the work of the people who were involved. I just think some people just simply want to believe in conspiracy theories, the programme I saw had 2 people who vermantly denied it happened and everything they said to back their theory up was proven to be incorrect yet they still believed in the face of all the evidence one still believed we dont have the technology to do it today, I swear if you actually took him to the moon he would come up with some theory to 'prove' it didnt happen.

[purpleronnie]

I can honestly say that... for as many conspiracy theories i am open to, this is not one.

For me evidence that has been presented by the "unbelievers" seems to have always been reasonably clearly proven to be incorrect.

The fact that this would require co-operation between the US and USSR at a time when even talking to each other was difficult, add to that the evidence at the time, the involvement of hundreds/thousands..possibly tens of thousands of people outside of the US who would be required to keep mum about it.. just is too much for me.

Also, as there were Aussies involved in the broadcast of the landing (see the mildly funny movie - The Dish) they would be the first to try and screw over any secrecy...Aussies love nothing better than making the Yanks look like fools... well except possibly making the English look like fools.

So on this occasion im happy to be part of the gullible masses that accepts the government line, but like you... more power to anyone who wants to stand up and proclaim their distrust.

Your not gullable your just weighing up the evidence...thats what conspiracy theories seem to fail to do.

[Zingari]

I can honestly say that... for as many conspiracy theories i am open to, this is not one.

For me evidence that has been presented by the "unbelievers" seems to have always been reasonably clearly proven to be incorrect.

The fact that this would require co-operation between the US and USSR at a time when even talking to each other was difficult, add to that the evidence at the time, the involvement of hundreds/thousands..possibly tens of thousands of people outside of the US who would be required to keep mum about it.. just is too much for me.

Also, as there were Aussies involved in the broadcast of the landing (see the mildly funny movie - The Dish) they would be the first to try and screw over any secrecy...Aussies love nothing better than making the Yanks look like fools... well except possibly making the English look like fools.

So on this occasion im happy to be part of the gullible masses that accepts the government line, but like you... more power to anyone who wants to stand up and proclaim their distrust.

Fair enough , but on the point of "the Russians would surely blow the whistle" , why didn't they blow the whistle on the staged attacks on the USS Liberty and Maddox ? They witnessed the whole shooting gallery and could have easily sold them out .

As I say , I really don't know what to believe and in the grand scheme of the world no-one really gives a fook what I believe

[ozleicester]

Fair enough , but on the point of "the Russians would surely blow the whistle" , why didn't they blow the whistle on the staged attacks on the USS Liberty and Maddox ? They witnessed the whole shooting gallery and could have easily sold them out .

As I say , I really don't know what to believe and in the grand scheme of the world no-one really gives a fook what I believe

Since my discovering Foxestalk, ive based every life decision i make on the WWZD (What would Zingari do) theory.

Excluding that weekend i was left with a particularly sore ar$e and the 8 years ive spent in Guantanamo... ive been pretty happy with the outcome.

[Zingari]

Your not gullable your just weighing up the evidence...thats what conspiracy theories seem to fail to do.

Don't ordinary people in courts weigh up the evidence all the time ?

Did they weigh up the evidence against the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, And McGuire 7 ( among 1000's of other cases ) and get it completely wrong ?

We are more easily deceived than maybe you can imagine.

[fleckneymike]

What always baffles me is that no conspiracy theory on the moon landings ever deals with the small issue of the signal sent from the moon to the satellite receivers on earth. There is not a single theory that accounts for that, or for how the entire mission was tracked from down here on earth by satellite stations around the world (including our own Jodrell Bank).

The reason hoax believers are usually greeted with such condescension and animosity is because of their unwillingness to hear the answers they are being given.

[purpleronnie]

Fair enough , but on the point of "the Russians would surely blow the whistle" , why didn't they blow the whistle on the staged attacks on the USS Liberty and Maddox ? They witnessed the whole shooting gallery and could have easily sold them out .

As I say , I really don't know what to believe and in the grand scheme of the world no-one really gives a fook what I believe

I will admit knowing little about USS Liberty - so has it been proven to be a staged attack?

[Zingari]

Since my discovering Foxestalk, ive based every life decision i make on the WWZD (What would Zingari do) theory.

Excluding that weekend i was left with a particularly sore ar$e and the 8 years ive spent in Guantanamo... ive been pretty happy with the outcome.

thanks, but I quite can't live up to that billing .

take my advice ( on this occasion) and change your decision making technique

[purpleronnie]

Don't ordinary people in courts weigh up the evidence all the time ?

Did they weigh up the evidence against the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, And McGuire 7 ( among 1000's of other cases ) and get it completely wrong ?

We are more easily deceived than maybe you can imagine.

I know were decieved all the time but the vast vast vast majority of the time if theres enough evidence it will be the truth, if your going to have your opinion and dismiss all the evidence and instead believe what is flimsy at best then those odds would be reversed.

Oh and how do you know the jury got it wrong?.....oh no .......not another conspiracy...agghhhh

[Zingari]

What always baffles me is that no conspiracy theory on the moon landings ever deals with the small issue of the signal sent from the moon to the satellite receivers on earth. There is not a single theory that accounts for that, or for how the entire mission was tracked from down here on earth by satellite stations around the world (including our own Jodrell Bank).

The reason hoax believers are usually greeted with such condescension and animosity is because of their unwillingness to hear the answers they are being given.

No-one is arguing that missions have been to the moon , the issue is about "manned missions"

All sorts of stuff could have been put there by unmanned missions .

Even the Chinese have mastered that bit

I don't get the bit where they keep showing us the astronauts footprints on the moon , but the feckin great LEM rockets didn't disturb a grain of dust as it landed . .

no doubt someone on FT knows why

[purpleronnie]

No-one is arguing that missions have been to the moon , the issue is about "manned missions"

All sorts of stuff could have been put there by unmanned missions .

Even the Chinese have mastered that bit

I don't get the bit where they keep showing us the astronauts footprints on the moon , but the feckin great LEM rockets didn't disturb a grain of dust as it landed . .

no doubt someone on FT knows why

It did disturb the dust even rocks, it went down to 25% of its power and in a forward motion all would give very little disturbance on the ground.

[fleckneymike]

Don't ordinary people in courts weigh up the evidence all the time ?

Did they weigh up the evidence against the Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, And McGuire 7 ( among 1000's of other cases ) and get it completely wrong ?

We are more easily deceived than maybe you can imagine.

The spurious logic you use is incredible. Just because there were miscarriages of justice with the Birmingham 4 etc does not lend credibility to the argument that the Moon Landings were fake. Neither does the Gulf of Tonken, which appears to have taken on near religious significance for people who believe in conspiracies. I would be intrigued to know what the Soviets observed at the Gulf of Tonkin as the whole point of the Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy is that there WAS NOTHING TO OBSERVE. It didn't happen, thats the whole point of the conspiracy.

[Zingari]

The spurious logic you use is incredible. Just because there were miscarriages of justice with the Birmingham 4 etc does not lend credibility to the argument that the Moon Landings were fake. Neither does the Gulf of Tonken, which appears to have taken on near religious significance for people who believe in conspiracies. I would be intrigued to know what the Soviets observed at the Gulf of Tonkin as the whole point of the Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy is that there WAS NOTHING TO OBSERVE. It didn't happen, thats the whole point of the conspiracy.

i was just making the point that "weighing up the evidence" is not a foolproof system for absolute belief

OK I surrender for today , you believers are probably right

[fleckneymike]

No-one is arguing that missions have been to the moon , the issue is about "manned missions"

All sorts of stuff could have been put there by unmanned missions .

Even the Chinese have mastered that bit

I don't get the bit where they keep showing us the astronauts footprints on the moon , but the feckin great LEM rockets didn't disturb a grain of dust as it landed . .

no doubt someone on FT knows why

Again you are avoiding my question, how did footage, of men on the moon, get back from the moon, to earth (indeed how were we able to track and talk to the command module and the crewmen on its entire journey to and from the moon). Are we to believe that NASA went to the effort of building a programme capable of sending a ship to the moon, landing on the moon, broadcasting from the moon, collecting samples from the moon, taking off from the moon, returning to earth, but they neglected to put any men on board?

[purpleronnie]

Again you are avoiding my question, how did footage, of men on the moon, get back from the moon, to earth (indeed how were we able to track and talk to the command module and the crewmen on its entire journey to and from the moon). Are we to believe that NASA went to the effort of building a programme capable of sending a ship to the moon, landing on the moon, broadcasting from the moon, collecting samples from the moon, taking off from the moon, returning to earth, but they neglected to put any men on board?

Theres even pictures that show dust and rocks were disturbed and its also been proven the physics of how little power was being used and it explains why there wasnt a huge crater that some theorists believe would happen...again they choose to ignore it...why? Because they will never change their minds so its pretty pointless argueing with them...but its hard not to....but I'm leaving it for now anyway.