Hiding in the Shadow of Hillsborough

[Stand Up Sit Down]

Hiding in the Shadow of Hillsborough

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

Since our inception in July 2004, Stand Up Sit Down has always concentrated on current arguments in our case for a return to safe standing and have sought not to invoke terrible memories of the Hillsborough Disaster. This is not a stance that those so against the return of standing adopt; within 5 minutes of sitting down in the offices of the Football Licensing Authority we were told, “well, we can’t have another Hillsborough, can we?†More recently, Sports Minister Richard Caborn, using deliberately evocative language used the disaster, during a debate in the Guardian newspaper with Stand Up Sit Down as virtually a carte blanche reason not to even have a debate on the issue. It seems that by using the words safety and Hillsborough the authorities give the impression that the case for the return to standing is an open and shut one.

We now wish to dispel the all too convenient myth that Hillsborough was caused because of terracing; we would prefer the authorities stop insulting our intelligence and using the tragic deaths of the Liverpool supporters as a debate stopper. We do not seek to cause offence but in light of the continuing refusal of the authorities to pay us little more than lip service, feel that it is timely to counter a stronger argument and hope now that the authorities will comprehensively address the fact that a large minority of supporters wish to stand at football matches and that rather hiding in the shadow of Hillsborough, an honest and open debate should ensue.

When responding to supporters who and supporter organisations who are campaigning for a return to standing, we would like to know why the following are never mentioned by the Government, the Football Licensing Authority and others.

That:

· Sheffield Wednesday had no current safety certificate for the ground

· The one they did hold had not, despite various changes to the ground, been updated since it was issued in December 1979!

· For the police officer in charge that day, it was his first football match

· In 1981 the police had advised that the overall figure of 10,100 for the Leppings Lane terrace was too high and yet the capacity was not reduced.

· The police did not divert supporters from the packed pens into ones either side of the central one where supporters were congregating

· A front barrier was corroded and under the pressure of the excessive and uncounted number of fans allowed in, it collapsed directly causing a number of deaths.

· A crush barrier had been removed from pen 3 in 1986 leaving a clear fall through to the front

· A second barrier had had a gap inserted in it in 1985

· Lord Taylor rejected the idea drunk fans caused the disaster but instead was certain that the chief reason was police failure to handle the mass of supporters.

· That seats should replace terracing was one of 76 recommendations that Taylor made and was not included in his interim report.

· This recommendation was amended by the then Home Office Minister, David Mellor, in July 1992 when he agree that some standing accommodation could be retained by clubs in the lowest two divisions of the Football League

Could it be all too convenient for the above not to be used in the short sighted and narrow minded arguments against standing as it detracts from their mantra that “we can’t have another Hillsboroughâ€Â. Nobody wants another Hillsborough but this is simply not a good enough reason not to discuss with an open mind, the introduction of modern, safe standing.

It is clear that a disaster was waiting to happen at Hillsborough, but not simply or just because the club had terraces. Indeed, in a disaster in a modern, all seater stadium in South Africa in April 2001 that took the lives of 43 and injured over 100 football supporters, bore frightening similarities to the Hillsborough disaster in that the Inquiry found that “how a litany of mistakes and errors of judgement could have contributed to the deaths of 43â€Â.

Stand Up Sit Down need to be very clear indeed that we fully support the vast number of improvements made to football stadia in this country post Hillsborough; it is obvious that they were long over due, but question why it took the deaths of many and the 9th report (that was Taylor) into spectator safety to produce the benefits of modern stadia that we all enjoy today.

Notwithstanding the above we need to be equally clear that we think these benefits are yet another all too easy get out clause not to bring back managed standing. Richard Caborn recently “spun†a Premier League fan survey by stating that “fans see their safety as a hugely important part of going to a game – and that they are happy with the current all seater arrangements†. Supporters who took part on this survey were not asked about whether or not they wished to sit or stand!! They were asked about how important they rated safety and of course the overwhelming majority of responders said that they rated safety as “extremely important†as any right minded individual would.

In our experience surveys on the subject of standing (mostly found on unofficial club websites) indicate that a high proportion of respondents wish to see safe standing areas reintroduced – even if they don’t want to use them personally and rarely do supporters ask for return of the terracing as it was pre Taylor!

Looking at our European cousins, especially those in Germany (where incidentally all stadiums bar one hosting preliminary rounds of the forthcoming World Cup, have designated safe standing areas for domestic games) English supporters recognise and understand that standing and/or terraces do not have to be unsafe and for them to be reintroduced would not necessarily make attending football matches any more or less safe than it is currently.

While the main aim of this article was to dispel the myth that to stand in a football ground automatically means danger or disaster we must also touch on the view that is held by many, that a introduction to modern, safe standing areas would automatically herald a return of hooliganism. Do the people who so disparagingly seem to think that those who wish to stand are would be criminals not take into account that tens of thousands of supporters have persistently stood in front of their seats without such behaviour occurring since the inception of all seater stadiums? We struggle to think of any other minority group in society who would be so easily and conveniently stereotyped and are saddened that law abiding, genuine football supporters of both sexes, all ages and backgrounds who want to stand are thus thought of and portrayed as would be hooligans merely because they prefer to stand.

We’re sure that this is a hugely contributory factor as to why the authorities will not entertain the return of standing in any form. We are routinely policed and ‘stewarded’ before, during and after games as if we are on perpetual brink of a riot and incapable of controlling ourselves unless the boys in blue or orange are there to contain, moderate and censor our behaviour.

The Government and FLA have so manipulated Hillsborough and pandered to the idea that standing automatically equates to football violence that they refuse to listen to reason and continually use feeble arguments against us that do little more than suit their own agenda.

We are not sure what is worse: this twisting of the truth or the shameful hiding behind the deaths of ordinary, decent football supporters.

www.standupsitdown.co.uk

[Steven]

It is pointless posting on here. You need to be getting money together to for a Judicial Review.

[Strokes]

It is pointless posting on here. You need to be getting money together to for a Judicial Review.

Why is it pointless him/her posting on here? I am well in support of this.

[Phube]

They should send it to Tim Davies, for all his faults, he does genuinely want to bring back teracing or at least standing areas... plus he'll have a tiny bit more saway than normal plebby fans (although he's at Leicester so not much more as we seem to be the pariah's of English footy at the mo'!)

[werestandingup_weresittingdown]

You have all my support.

Bring back terracing and return an atmosphere that has been stolen from english football grounds

[Maybes]

You have all my support.

Bring back terracing and return an atmosphere that has been stolen from english football grounds

Oh yes.(In churchill the dogs voice)

[Frenzied]

Great article and highlights the ignorance of the football authorities and government concerning ground safety and hooliganism. Or is it a case of class prejudice? Maybe both.

[Stand Up Sit Down]

Class prejudice? Wouldn't like to say, but thought this post from a Chelsea forum was interesting...

"You have covered all the reasons why terracing should be brought back in this excellent piece. All of us who used to stand know full well it was never the terraces that were unsafe but the issues surrounding it that you have highlighted in your article, such as the laissez faire approach to spectator safety, the stereo-typing of those attending matches and so on.

Another factor is that those bodies vested with authority will always seek to control and manage those whom they have authority over and when these attempts fail - as they do - they are conditioned to think that the only answer is that yet more control systems are required. The football authorities fall into this category. They are only to happy to be able to identify and pick out individuals who do not conform to their version of what is acceptable and what isn't, and will not relinquish this control easily. To them, a welcome by-product of this control is that it enables them to charge excessive and exploitative amounts for the perception of safety or comfort.

Outside a football ground we may walk rubbish and graffiti infested streets, we may nervously eye up each passing person and assess the chances of robbery/ attack etc, we can listen to any amount of foul abuse, we can take our chances on the tube against being blown to pieces by some deranged nutcase - but woe betide you if you enter Stamford Bridge with a wooden rattle or if you fancy a fag."

[Guest]

It is pointless posting on here. You need to be getting money together to for a Judicial Review.

Agree with the call for a judicial review, but I think this should be posted. By educating all those in favour with the facts, and disspelling the myths, there would be more people in support for the right reasons. This would give more weight to the movement, and the more people support of the cause, the more pressure you can put on ministers to change the system.

[Shum]

This thread got me reading / researching the disaster this afternoon... Have a read of this.

The Hillsborough Football Disaster

The history of Hillsborough begins with the deaths of 96 people and the physical and mental injury of countless others.

However it does not end there. The enormity of the Disaster goes beyond even this.

Hillsborough becomes a metaphor for British society today. It is a microcosm of how society operates. Viewed in this way the history of Hillsborough becomes the history of injustice, of cover-up, and collusion.

History will record 'Hillsborough' firmly within the bounds of civil rights, and the bereaved and survivors of the Disaster will long be remembered for the heroic stances they took against the might of bureaucratic forces in the name of justice.

What follows is a chronological outline of what exactly happened on the 15th April 1989 at Hillsborough and the aftermath...

It's April the 15th 1989, FA Cup Semi Final.

It's at Hillsborough and you open the match programme to see a picture of the Leppings Lane end of the ground full of Liverpool supporters, same round, same place.

One year ago in 1988.

The programme reads: "As you look around Hillsborough you will appreciate why it has been regarded for so long as the perfect venue for all kinds of important matches. It is a stadium that befits such occasions and the large crowds they attract".

Liverpool had reached the semi-final of the FA Cup and were to play Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough Stadium, home to Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. It was an identical scenario to the previous year when Liverpool had beaten Notts Forest at the same ground.

Tickets are always in short demand for such a game but in this instance Liverpool fans had even scarcer resources to draw from. They had been located the Leppings Lane end of the ground - the smaller end. Given the level of support this was a woefully inadequate allocation of tickets. Although there was general disquiet about this decision by the FA's, fans nevertheless resigned themselves to the fact. After all they had been through it all the year before and therefore many justifiably felt that they knew what to expect.

Fans set off early and full of optimism on that sunny Saturday morning. Whether they had travelled by road or rail, having left their transport at designated sites they were escorted by police towards the ground. One bereaved father described the areas around the ground as having a 'carnival atmosphere'. Sadly, this atmosphere would soon change.

The build up of fans around the Leppings Lane area increased dramatically around 2p.m. as people began to arrive in greater numbers. It also became known that many coaches were only just arriving having experienced delays from road works and police searches along the way. Clearly a crowd safety issue was emerging. Yet police records indicate little real concern at this stage.

From 2.30p.m. the number of people at the turnstile area was immense and orderly queuing was an impossibility. Fans being searched as they went in to the ground exacerbated this growing problem. Fans were entering a bottleneck. 10,000 fans, three gates, and seven turnstiles - this was the disastrous situation that people with tickets for the Leppings Lane end were walking into. Add to this the number of people with tickets for the West Stand (located above the terracing) who also had to enter by the same three gates and the recipe for disaster increases even further.

Superintendent Marshall was in overall command outside the ground. His record of the day reveals a heavy emphasis on the amount of alcohol being consumed by Liverpool fans. This emphasis was to become the main observation of the police version of events of the day and was the opposite of fans recollections and subsequent forensic evidence.

As conditions worsened fans were increasingly distressed. Those on the inside were struggling to breathe as the numbers swelled. Whilst on the outside the volume of those trying to enter at the Leppings lane end increased by the minute. An officer requested that the kick - off be delayed in order to reassure the crowd that there was no urgency. The request was denied. An inspector asked that the exit gates be opened in order to relieve the pressure outside. Marshall was reluctant to take this course of action because it would allow uncontrolled access to the stadium.

Fans accounts of the scenes outside the Leppings lane area point almost universally to a lack of organisation and control. Trapped in a bottleneck, quite literally, they had nowhere to go except where the momentum of the crowd led them. The fear of fans caught in this situation outside can only be matched by those struggling to survive on the inside.

Eventually Marshall radioed through to Chief Superintendent Duckenfield who was in overall command on the day (despite the fact that he had minimal experience of policing football and absolutely no experience of such a big game) and requested that the exit gates be opened. Duckenfield hesitated (he would later give evidence stating that he 'froze') but eventually gave the order: 'Open the gates'.

Once gate C had been opened police directed fans through the gate. The most obvious entrance to the terraces was through the tunnel opposite into pens 3 and 4. Evidence would later be given that in previous years police and/or stewards would stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens.

In 1989 however, no such direction took place as fans headed innocently into already overcrowded pens. It is quite incomprehensible that Duckenfield, failed to follow up the order to open gate C with instructions to allow for the swift increase in the volume of people entering that end of the ground. Indeed the reasoning capacity of Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield has to be seriously challenged when one considers his response to the situation in pens 3 and 4. Logic would inform the average person that the volume outside would be replicated inside once entrance was allowed and that therefore swift monitoring and control would be necessary if a catastrophe was to be averted. Logic however, does not seem to figure large in the consciousness of David Duckenfield. His response to seeing people spill out onto the perimeter track from the crushing in the pens was to call for reinforcements (including dog handlers) as he thought there was a pitch invasion!

This response of Duckenfield is even more obscene when it is realised that from his position in the control box he could clearly see the Leppings Lane end. Moreover, he had the advantage of CCTV with zoom facilities. His later testimony that he was unaware that people were suffering and dying becomes totally unbelievable to those of us who have visited that control box and know that it is possible see the colour of a persons eyes in pens 3 and 4 such was the power of the zoom facilities on the cameras. On the basis of his response given the carnage that could clearly be seen several theories have been postulated:

Duckenfield lacks the ability to reason at a very basic humanitarian level and therefore one has to ask does this reflect on the general standard of senior policing in Britain today.

Duckenfield was totally indifferent to the situation he was witnessing in the pens and ignored the plight of dying people.Duckenfield was not in the control box at all, in which case where was he?

Inside the pens people were dead and dying. Faces were crushed up against the perimeter fencing, the vomit and blueness a clear sign of their condition. Fans were packed so tightly that many were dead standing up. Many still conscious were trying to break down the fencing with their hands. Those who had managed to climb over the fencing or escape when a perimeter gate was briefly opened also struggled to free their fellow fans. This was the sight that met the 'reinforcements' that had responded to Duckenfields' call to stem the 'pitch invasion'.

On the right, empty pens, centre packed pens 3 and 4

Clearly aware of the gravity of the situation many of these officers began to assist in trying to get people out. It has to be stated at this point that this is in stark contrast to many of the police officers positioned initially at the perimeter fencing who ignored the obvious signs of distress and the screams for help even though they were literally an arms length from those dying. It also contrasts with the actions of those other officers who pushed fans back inside the pens when from which they had momentarily escaped when the perimeter gate opened. These actions more than anything else illustrate graphically the prevailing attitude to football supporters by the police as an organisation. The only rational explanation for the actions of these officers was, that deep within their psyche, police training had conditioned them to view crowds in terms of crowd control rather than crowd safety. Their actions during the Miners Strike of 1984 and the Trafalgar Square Poll Tax demonstrations support this view. They had also been conditioned to inextricably link football supporters and hooliganism. As we now know this 'conditioning' had the disastrous consequence of leading to the biggest sporting disaster in British history.

The pitch soon resembled a battleground as bodies were laid out on the ground and the injured wandered around dazed and confused. Fans sought desperately to save lives. Apart from pleading with police to recognise the seriousness of the situation, they tore down advertising hoardings to act as stretchers and ferried fans to the far end of the pitch in the hope that they would receive treatment. Although ill - equipped to do so many fans attempted to resuscitate people themselves in the absence of professional medical assistance.

The Hillsborough Disaster

95 people died in the Hillsborough Disaster.

Another victim, who had been in a persistent vegetative state through injuries received, later incresed that number to 96.

Of those who died, 89 were male 7 were female. In respect of age, the majority were under 30 years of age, and more than a third were under 20 years. The youngest to die was a boy of 10 years.

The cause of death was attributed to crush asphyxia. Most deaths occurred in pen 3, the remainder occurring in pen 4. The majority of deaths occurred at the front of the pens. 730 people were injured inside the ground. 36 people sustained injuries outside the ground.

Thousands remain traumatised by the experience. Numerous suicides can be attributed directly to Hillsborough.

[Ric Flair]

This thread got me reading / researching the disaster this afternoon... Have a read of this.

The Hillsborough Football Disaster

The history of Hillsborough begins with the deaths of 96 people and the physical and mental injury of countless others.

However it does not end there. The enormity of the Disaster goes beyond even this.

Hillsborough becomes a metaphor for British society today. It is a microcosm of how society operates. Viewed in this way the history of Hillsborough becomes the history of injustice, of cover-up, and collusion.

History will record 'Hillsborough' firmly within the bounds of civil rights, and the bereaved and survivors of the Disaster will long be remembered for the heroic stances they took against the might of bureaucratic forces in the name of justice.

What follows is a chronological outline of what exactly happened on the 15th April 1989 at Hillsborough and the aftermath...

It's April the 15th 1989, FA Cup Semi Final.

It's at Hillsborough and you open the match programme to see a picture of the Leppings Lane end of the ground full of Liverpool supporters, same round, same place.

One year ago in 1988.

The programme reads: "As you look around Hillsborough you will appreciate why it has been regarded for so long as the perfect venue for all kinds of important matches. It is a stadium that befits such occasions and the large crowds they attract".

Liverpool had reached the semi-final of the FA Cup and were to play Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough Stadium, home to Sheffield Wednesday Football Club. It was an identical scenario to the previous year when Liverpool had beaten Notts Forest at the same ground.

Tickets are always in short demand for such a game but in this instance Liverpool fans had even scarcer resources to draw from. They had been located the Leppings Lane end of the ground - the smaller end. Given the level of support this was a woefully inadequate allocation of tickets. Although there was general disquiet about this decision by the FA's, fans nevertheless resigned themselves to the fact. After all they had been through it all the year before and therefore many justifiably felt that they knew what to expect.

Fans set off early and full of optimism on that sunny Saturday morning. Whether they had travelled by road or rail, having left their transport at designated sites they were escorted by police towards the ground. One bereaved father described the areas around the ground as having a 'carnival atmosphere'. Sadly, this atmosphere would soon change.

The build up of fans around the Leppings Lane area increased dramatically around 2p.m. as people began to arrive in greater numbers. It also became known that many coaches were only just arriving having experienced delays from road works and police searches along the way. Clearly a crowd safety issue was emerging. Yet police records indicate little real concern at this stage.

From 2.30p.m. the number of people at the turnstile area was immense and orderly queuing was an impossibility. Fans being searched as they went in to the ground exacerbated this growing problem. Fans were entering a bottleneck. 10,000 fans, three gates, and seven turnstiles - this was the disastrous situation that people with tickets for the Leppings Lane end were walking into. Add to this the number of people with tickets for the West Stand (located above the terracing) who also had to enter by the same three gates and the recipe for disaster increases even further.

Superintendent Marshall was in overall command outside the ground. His record of the day reveals a heavy emphasis on the amount of alcohol being consumed by Liverpool fans. This emphasis was to become the main observation of the police version of events of the day and was the opposite of fans recollections and subsequent forensic evidence.

As conditions worsened fans were increasingly distressed. Those on the inside were struggling to breathe as the numbers swelled. Whilst on the outside the volume of those trying to enter at the Leppings lane end increased by the minute. An officer requested that the kick - off be delayed in order to reassure the crowd that there was no urgency. The request was denied. An inspector asked that the exit gates be opened in order to relieve the pressure outside. Marshall was reluctant to take this course of action because it would allow uncontrolled access to the stadium.

Fans accounts of the scenes outside the Leppings lane area point almost universally to a lack of organisation and control. Trapped in a bottleneck, quite literally, they had nowhere to go except where the momentum of the crowd led them. The fear of fans caught in this situation outside can only be matched by those struggling to survive on the inside.

Eventually Marshall radioed through to Chief Superintendent Duckenfield who was in overall command on the day (despite the fact that he had minimal experience of policing football and absolutely no experience of such a big game) and requested that the exit gates be opened. Duckenfield hesitated (he would later give evidence stating that he 'froze') but eventually gave the order: 'Open the gates'.

Once gate C had been opened police directed fans through the gate. The most obvious entrance to the terraces was through the tunnel opposite into pens 3 and 4. Evidence would later be given that in previous years police and/or stewards would stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens.

In 1989 however, no such direction took place as fans headed innocently into already overcrowded pens. It is quite incomprehensible that Duckenfield, failed to follow up the order to open gate C with instructions to allow for the swift increase in the volume of people entering that end of the ground. Indeed the reasoning capacity of Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield has to be seriously challenged when one considers his response to the situation in pens 3 and 4. Logic would inform the average person that the volume outside would be replicated inside once entrance was allowed and that therefore swift monitoring and control would be necessary if a catastrophe was to be averted. Logic however, does not seem to figure large in the consciousness of David Duckenfield. His response to seeing people spill out onto the perimeter track from the crushing in the pens was to call for reinforcements (including dog handlers) as he thought there was a pitch invasion!

This response of Duckenfield is even more obscene when it is realised that from his position in the control box he could clearly see the Leppings Lane end. Moreover, he had the advantage of CCTV with zoom facilities. His later testimony that he was unaware that people were suffering and dying becomes totally unbelievable to those of us who have visited that control box and know that it is possible see the colour of a persons eyes in pens 3 and 4 such was the power of the zoom facilities on the cameras. On the basis of his response given the carnage that could clearly be seen several theories have been postulated:

Duckenfield lacks the ability to reason at a very basic humanitarian level and therefore one has to ask does this reflect on the general standard of senior policing in Britain today.

Duckenfield was totally indifferent to the situation he was witnessing in the pens and ignored the plight of dying people.Duckenfield was not in the control box at all, in which case where was he?

Inside the pens people were dead and dying. Faces were crushed up against the perimeter fencing, the vomit and blueness a clear sign of their condition. Fans were packed so tightly that many were dead standing up. Many still conscious were trying to break down the fencing with their hands. Those who had managed to climb over the fencing or escape when a perimeter gate was briefly opened also struggled to free their fellow fans. This was the sight that met the 'reinforcements' that had responded to Duckenfields' call to stem the 'pitch invasion'.

On the right, empty pens, centre packed pens 3 and 4

Clearly aware of the gravity of the situation many of these officers began to assist in trying to get people out. It has to be stated at this point that this is in stark contrast to many of the police officers positioned initially at the perimeter fencing who ignored the obvious signs of distress and the screams for help even though they were literally an arms length from those dying. It also contrasts with the actions of those other officers who pushed fans back inside the pens when from which they had momentarily escaped when the perimeter gate opened. These actions more than anything else illustrate graphically the prevailing attitude to football supporters by the police as an organisation. The only rational explanation for the actions of these officers was, that deep within their psyche, police training had conditioned them to view crowds in terms of crowd control rather than crowd safety. Their actions during the Miners Strike of 1984 and the Trafalgar Square Poll Tax demonstrations support this view. They had also been conditioned to inextricably link football supporters and hooliganism. As we now know this 'conditioning' had the disastrous consequence of leading to the biggest sporting disaster in British history.

The pitch soon resembled a battleground as bodies were laid out on the ground and the injured wandered around dazed and confused. Fans sought desperately to save lives. Apart from pleading with police to recognise the seriousness of the situation, they tore down advertising hoardings to act as stretchers and ferried fans to the far end of the pitch in the hope that they would receive treatment. Although ill - equipped to do so many fans attempted to resuscitate people themselves in the absence of professional medical assistance.

The Hillsborough Disaster

95 people died in the Hillsborough Disaster.

Another victim, who had been in a persistent vegetative state through injuries received, later incresed that number to 96.

Of those who died, 89 were male 7 were female. In respect of age, the majority were under 30 years of age, and more than a third were under 20 years. The youngest to die was a boy of 10 years.

The cause of death was attributed to crush asphyxia. Most deaths occurred in pen 3, the remainder occurring in pen 4. The majority of deaths occurred at the front of the pens. 730 people were injured inside the ground. 36 people sustained injuries outside the ground.

Thousands remain traumatised by the experience. Numerous suicides can be attributed directly to Hillsborough.

I read a book on it last year, absolutely shocking and harrowing. The book highlighted the facts about what happened and it pinpointed it all on the police basically, which got me so angry. The police have got away with it big time and I feel for the families who lost love ones in the disaster, yet have never been able to rightly have something done abaout it. The headlines The Sun published in the aftermath of the disaster were disgraceful and I think i'm right in saying the majority of Liverpool still never but The Sun to this day and I applaud them for doing that.

Sends a shiver down my spine.

[BartonFox]

I read a book on it last year, absolutely shocking and harrowing. The book highlighted the facts about what happened and it pinpointed it all on the police basically, which got me so angry. The police have got away with it big time and I feel for the families who lost love ones in the disaster, yet have never been able to rightly have something done abaout it. The headlines The Sun published in the aftermath of the disaster were disgraceful and I think i'm right in saying the majority of Liverpool still never but The Sun to this day and I applaud them for doing that.

Sends a shiver down my spine.

I'm sorry, but there are 2 sides to every story. While I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding that comic The Sun, to blame it all on the Police is wrong.

The FA should never have allocated the Leppings Lane end to Liverpool, the Hillsborough Kop held 18,000 and Liverpool with the vastly bigger following should have been at that end. The excuse that it was the south end and Forest were coming from the south is moronic.

The Police should have handled the day better, that is for sure, however the Liverpool fans are not blameless. Thousands turned up without tickets and tried to gain entry to the stadium, thousands were drunk and causing disorder outside, not hooliganism but public disorder. That was never reported as it bismirched the dead, as the guy from SUSD said it was never considered in the debates. To blame South Yorkshire Constabulary is all too easy.

Standing is safe, but now all these new stands will not be at the specifications required to make them terracing, so the government have football fans by the short and curlies.

Smack a like minded bloke on a matchday and you get 2 years in jail and a 5 year ban from football. Wave a placard about demanding death to the western world and you get a 4 bedroomed house and all the welfare benefits you could dream of.

Football fans the most persecuted group of people in Britain.

[Stand Up Sit Down]

Thousands were not drunk. Blood tests were done on the dead and if I remember correctly no more than two were over the legal limit and a fair number didn't have alcohol in their systems at all.

The FA had allowed many cup games to be played at Hillsborough and yet had never bothered to check they had a current safety certificate!!!

The man in charge of the certificate, a Mr Mackerell, chose not to resign over this and yet many years later resigned as Club Secretary of West Ham United over a cup tied player being brought on as sub!!

Many, many people were/are culpable for Hillsborough but the supporters were not.

[Ric Flair]

I'm sorry, but there are 2 sides to every story. While I agree wholeheartedly with you regarding that comic The Sun, to blame it all on the Police is wrong.

The FA should never have allocated the Leppings Lane end to Liverpool, the Hillsborough Kop held 18,000 and Liverpool with the vastly bigger following should have been at that end. The excuse that it was the south end and Forest were coming from the south is moronic.

The Police should have handled the day better, that is for sure, however the Liverpool fans are not blameless. Thousands turned up without tickets and tried to gain entry to the stadium, thousands were drunk and causing disorder outside, not hooliganism but public disorder. That was never reported as it bismirched the dead, as the guy from SUSD said it was never considered in the debates. To blame South Yorkshire Constabulary is all too easy.

Standing is safe, but now all these new stands will not be at the specifications required to make them terracing, so the government have football fans by the short and curlies.

Smack a like minded bloke on a matchday and you get 2 years in jail and a 5 year ban from football. Wave a placard about demanding death to the western world and you get a 4 bedroomed house and all the welfare benefits you could dream of.

Football fans the most persecuted group of people in Britain.

Your absolutely right, the police shouldn't take all the blame. I perhaps didn't make my point clear, but they certainly had a big part to play in it and the fact they blatantly lied about numerous things makes it impossible to have any sympathy for the police that day.

They publically said that Liverpool fans had been drinking excessively, yet the police had requested for all pubs in the area to be closed that day and told all off licences and supermarkets not to sell any alcohol that day. I know there were other ways around getting pissed up, but Liverpool fans certainly weren't as drunk as the police had made out.

It has also come to light that they either tampered with or made it very hard to get hold of certain statements from witnesses and other policemen who were told what to write and what not to write.

I'm sure the police didn't set out to cause a disaster like this, but the way they responded after it happened and tried to cover things up makes matters worse. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes even catastophic ones like at Hillsborough but to then try and pin the blame elsewhere is disgusting and they should have been well and truely ****ed over for doing so. The Taylor report that came out pin pointed facts that directed some or most of the blame to the South Yorkshire Police, but still nothing ever really happened. Victims and families of the injured and dead were meant to have been awarded compensation, yet they didn't or hardly received any of what was agreed.

Cooonts.

[BartonFox]

Your absolutely right, the police shouldn't take all the blame. I perhaps didn't make my point clear, but they certainly had a big part to play in it and the fact they blatantly lied about numerous things makes it impossible to have any sympathy for the police that day.

They publically said that Liverpool fans had been drinking excessively, yet the police had requested for all pubs in the area to be closed that day and told all off licences and supermarkets not to sell any alcohol that day. I know there were other ways around getting pissed up, but Liverpool fans certainly weren't as drunk as the police had made out.

It has also come to light that they either tampered with or made it very hard to get hold of certain statements from witnesses and other policemen who were told what to write and what not to write.

I'm sure the police didn't set out to cause a disaster like this, but the way they responded after it happened and tried to cover things up makes matters worse. Everyone makes mistakes sometimes even catastophic ones like at Hillsborough but to then try and pin the blame elsewhere is disgusting and they should have been well and truely ****ed over for doing so. The Taylor report that came out pin pointed facts that directed some or most of the blame to the South Yorkshire Police, but still nothing ever really happened. Victims and families of the injured and dead were meant to have been awarded compensation, yet they didn't or hardly received any of what was agreed.

Cooonts.

I'm not saying the police didn't cock it up, they did, but what gets me is to say the Liverpool fans were totally blameless. I lost 2 mates in that disaster they were both teenagers, of course they weren't drunk and I wouldn't expect many of the other victims to be either as in those days you got to the ground early to get your spot on the terrace. But thousands of ticketless fans trying to gain entry to the ground and poor policing and planning from the football authorities are to the reasons for the tradgedy.

I know people who live in the Hillsborough area and they and their neighbours tell a very different story to the one that comes out of Liverpool. The trouble is it isn't the done thing to talk openly about it as it is a bit non-PC.

[Vestan Pance]

I'm not saying the police didn't cock it up, they did, but what gets me is to say the Liverpool fans were totally blameless. I lost 2 mates in that disaster they were both teenagers, of course they weren't drunk and I wouldn't expect many of the other victims to be either as in those days you got to the ground early to get your spot on the terrace. But thousands of ticketless fans trying to gain entry to the ground and poor policing and planning from the football authorities are to the reasons for the tradgedy.

I know people who live in the Hillsborough area and they and their neighbours tell a very different story to the one that comes out of Liverpool. The trouble is it isn't the done thing to talk openly about it as it is a bit non-PC.

Haven't we all just played into the governments hands by associating the standing debate with Hillsborough yet again.

[BartonFox]

Haven't we all just played into the governments hands by associating the standing debate with Hillsborough yet again.

eh? The standing debate is associated to Hillsborough. As a direct consequence of the disaster the laws for all seater stadia were introduced. Any debate now will always go back to it and how in this day and age it will be avoided.

[john_lcfc]

keep campaigning mate i am a member of stand up sit down and hope to get more involved

[Stand Up Sit Down]

keep campaigning mate i am a member of stand up sit down and hope to get more involved

Great! Drop me a line at [email protected] as and when you're ready to get more involved!

[BartonFox]

keep campaigning mate

Absolutely.

If you can break one of the beauraucrats then we might just get back there. All power to you

[Thin_King]

Why does seating make such a difference? are we all that fragile that we can't sing our hearts out from seated positions?

Your all silly the lot of ya, Hillsbrough is in the past, at the present time the laws are in place to prevent such catastrophies from happening ever again, THAT I AGREE WITH

It stands on moral ground that, as a show of respect to all those who died so tragically on that day - WE DO NOT OVERTURN THE DECISION TO HAVE ALL SEATER STADIA BY LAW

Would you sing over a minute silence? Though the government didn't bring the law in for the reason i had before stated, for those families of lost ones, this is what it represents

Take this into consideration, we should all be happy with what we have.

[Frenzied]

eh? The standing debate is associated to Hillsborough. As a direct consequence of the disaster the laws for all seater stadia were introduced. Any debate now will always go back to it and how in this day and age it will be avoided.

That's not entirely true; the government of the time was also looking at measures to limit or prevent football violence within grounds and all-seater stadia were part of those measures. However, Hillsborough was a major catalyst for the change.

[Frenzied]

Why does seating make such a difference? are we all that fragile that we can't sing our hearts out from seated positions?

Your all silly the lot of ya, Hillsbrough is in the past, at the present time the laws are in place to prevent such catastrophies from happening ever again, THAT I AGREE WITH

It stands on moral ground that, as a show of respect to all those who died so tragically on that day - WE DO NOT OVERTURN THE DECISION TO HAVE ALL SEATER STADIA BY LAW

Would you sing over a minute silence? Though the government didn't bring the law in for the reason i had before stated, for those families of lost ones, this is what it represents

Take this into consideration, we should all be happy with what we have.

Clearly you fail to recognise the fact that the Hillsborough disaster wasn't simply a consequence of terracing.

Furthermore, if you've ever been to games with terracing you'll have noticed that the atmosphere generated is far better than that at all-seater stadia, as a general rule.

[Thin_King]

Clearly you fail to recognise the fact that the Hillsborough disaster wasn't simply a consequence of terracing.

Furthermore, if you've ever been to games with terracing you'll have noticed that the atmosphere generated is far better than that at all-seater stadia, as a general rule.

You CLEARLY seem to have missed my point in hard to see, BOLD LETTERS.

As i before mentioned, Hillsbrough is a large part of why all seater stadia was introduced, but not the whole reason, those of us who lost loved ones in the hillsbrough disaster see this as a mark of respect and that, i feel should not be tarnished.

Sure the atmosphere on terraces is better - but why? because you can see better? no. Because the foxy ladies park there behinds in front of them? no. Because you can stand and project your voice better? yes - oh what a piyful reason.

Im sure Leicester fans are respectable enough to not missuse the trust the FA would put in fans IF they were to re-introduce terraces to the stadia, however - do you really think Millwall would be safe?

Its called the bigger picture! Safety precautions are in place for a reason, sometimes being respectful to the dead should also be put before our own beliefs

I would love to be able to stand in terraces once again, but i also admire the courage of the families of lost ones, and know of the sentimental values behind this decision for many.

[Frenzied]

You CLEARLY seem to have missed my point in hard to see, BOLD LETTERS.

As i before mentioned, Hillsbrough is a large part of why all seater stadia was introduced, but not the whole reason, those of us who lost loved ones in the hillsbrough disaster see this as a mark of respect and that, i feel should not be tarnished.

Sure the atmosphere on terraces is better - but why? because you can see better? no. Because the foxy ladies park there behinds in front of them? no. Because you can stand and project your voice better? yes - oh what a piyful reason.

Im sure Leicester fans are respectable enough to not missuse the trust the FA would put in fans IF they were to re-introduce terraces to the stadia, however - do you really think Millwall would be safe?

Its called the bigger picture! Safety precautions are in place for a reason, sometimes being respectful to the dead should also be put before our own beliefs

I would love to be able to stand in terraces once again, but i also admire the courage of the families of lost ones, and know of the sentimental values behind this decision for many.

How on earth having all-seater stadia is a mark of respect to those that died at Hillsborough? People didn't die as a result of terracing. As has been shown, time and time again, other factors were the central causes.