Israel

[Guest]

So much for leading the Jews into the Promised Land. What a balls up.

[breadandcheese]

So much for leading the Jews into the Promised Land. What a balls up.

Depends which way you look at it

[Steven]

Israel 'kills Lebanese civilians'

[Steven]

I have just been watching Porridge on UK Gold and Fletcher is reading the Sun. On the back page it says "Bowles in flare-up" and on the front page it has the headline "Israel takes revenge".

That revenge did not bring long term security nor will this. <_<

[Thracian]

I doubt the Utopia will happen. It all comes down to the values we are brought up with and taught. Someone who has been brought up to believe in a certain faith and defends it to the death is not necessary wrong. If they believe what they are doing is right then no amount of talk is going to change their mind. This is one reason why I have no strong religious beliefs. But I was brought up in a family where religion was not a mainstay in our lives. I was not baptised and the reason my mum gave was that she wanted us to make our own mind up as we grew older. I would not be the person I am today if different values were installed in me. My musical taste could be Cliff Richard instead of Black Sabbath. (thank you mum) I do not want to stop people having these beliefs, in fact I admire the ones that are strong but I cannot understand why sometimes. Without being brought up in that enviroment it is hard to understand what actually motivates some people to carry out these acts of violence.

As the saying goes 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.'

Although I've used the Commandments as a basis for my stance on right and wrong in bringing up my kids, religion has barely been mentioned for exactly the reasons you mentioned but it also follows that while everyone has the right to their opinion, they certainly have no right to try to brainwash others into sharing it.

One man's killer is simply that whatever fancy phrases are uttered by way of excuse.

I might feel that Zidane had every right to react in any way he liked to those insults towards his family but, if we are ever going to live in a civilised world then reacting violently, even murderously, is not the way forward.

[Ultra]

Israel 'kills Lebanese civilians'

Israel has the nerve to lecture Lebanon about non-compliance with UN resolutions.

That's very rich coming from a country which has ignored the UN for the past FORTY years.

But the Zionist lobby (both Jewish and Christian fundamentalists) holds sway in the US (Israel's main protector and bankroller), and is likely to continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Unless Europe is brave enough to take as strong a stand against Jewish extremism as it took against the Taliban, massacres on both sides will continue!

[Thracian]

The first step in settling this issue is simple and was mentioned by The singh. The Arab nations have to start by recognising Israel as a State because they are not going to voluntarily go away and nor would any other large resident group, like the Kurds in Iraq for example or, more parochially, the Moslems in Luton/Leeds/Leicester etc.

Why these people think they can have chunks of planet Earth solely for themselves is archaic. There were no big Moslem communities in England before the back end of the 20th Century but we have had to adjust.

So should the religious zealots of Palestine and Lebanon plus their self-seeking fat controllers from Iran and Syria who relish their role as shit stirrers contrary to the will of many, many moderate Moslems who, having rebuilt their cities, now find their surroundings reduced to dust because of people who think only of themselves and their fanatical ideals and take no notice of others among their community who wish to live with every colour and creed in toleratation and constructive harmony.

There was an excellent article in The Times this weekend about moderate Moslem girls in Lebanon and how, even wearing the veil, they have tried so hard to find ways of enjoying modern life and have so welcomed the return of coffee bars, damcing and tourism to Beiruit and elsewhere. Now the rebuilding will have to begin again once the dust settles.

The Hezbollah leader meanwhile almost seems to welcome the loss of his son "because he can look other bereaved parents in the eye when talking of their mutual sacrifices" and the anaesthetising effect of martyrdom/

In truth, if he is any sort of human being, he will soon realise that all the anaesthetic in the world won't bring the son back. That son has been lost on his watch because he misguidedly believed that violence was better than dialogue and moderation.

He may seem to relish his new situation because he can now justify his fanaticism costing other people their sons and daughters, their wives and loved ones. Being misguided is rather like being an alcoholic. You first have to recognise that you are wrong to do anything about it.

* So far the capture of three Israeli soldiers with the miscalculated aim (reportedly) of getting Israeli-held prisoners released has cost over 150 Moslem lives and half wrecked a capital City for no positive outcome whatsoever. How does that add up to sane, sensible and effective leadership?

[Dr The Singh]

The first step in settling this issue is simple and was mentioned by The singh. The Arab nations have to start by recognising Israel as a State because they are not going to voluntarily go away and nor would any other large resident group, like the Kurds in Iraq for example or, more parochially, the Moslems in Luton/Leeds/Leicester etc.

Why these people think they can have chunks of planet Earth solely for themselves is archaic. There were no big Moslem communities in England before the back end of the 20th Century but we have had to adjust.

So should the religious zealots of Palestine and Lebanon plus their self-seeking fat controllers from Iran and Syria who relish their role as shit stirrers contrary to the will of many, many moderate Moslems who, having rebuilt their cities, now find their surroundings reduced to dust because of people who think only of themselves and their fanatical ideals and take no notice of others among their community who wish to live with every colour and creed in toleratation and constructive harmony.

There was an excellent article in The Times this weekend about moderate Moslem girls in Lebanon and how, even wearing the veil, they have tried so hard to find ways of enjoying modern life and have so welcomed the return of coffee bars, damcing and tourism to Beiruit and elsewhere. Now the rebuilding will have to begin again once the dust settles.

The Hezbollah leader meanwhile almost seems to welcome the loss of his son "because he can look other bereaved parents in the eye when talking of their mutual sacrifices" and the anaesthetising effect of martyrdom/

In truth, if he is any sort of human being, he will soon realise that all the anaesthetic in the world won't bring the son back. That son has been lost on his watch because he misguidedly believed that violence was better than dialogue and moderation.

He may seem to relish his new situation because he can now justify his fanaticism costing other people their sons and daughters, their wives and loved ones. Being misguided is rather like being an alcoholic. You first have to recognise that you are wrong to do anything about it.

* So far the capture of three Israeli soldiers with the miscalculated aim (reportedly) of getting Israeli-held prisoners released has cost over 150 Moslem lives and half wrecked a capital City for no positive outcome whatsoever. How does that add up to sane, sensible and effective leadership?

Excellent points as always Thracian, the whole is issue with Islamic radicalisation (Hamas, Hizbullah, lesser extent HUT in the UK)is bigger then the Israel conflict. Nations such as Iran and Syria are tooling these people, funding from Saudi's, recently it was found that some UK Islamic charities were funding such groups.

As I have stated before, the Israel conflict at this moment infuriates moderate and hardline muslims but if the conflict was to be resolved and for eg Israel was no more the radical muslims like a disease would spread, the jihad would continue until the world is Islamic, Israel would not be the end.

In the current situation, we are seeing differences within the Islamic community in Lebonnan, people are sick and tired of conflict, people just want to get on with there lives, this goes for Isreali's to. Nations like Syria\Iran are using Lebonnan for war by proxy hence Irans\Syria's inhabitants are not effected. Unfortunately, Iran has become a threatening force with a possible nuclear arsenal and hi-tech weapons and has had the nerve to threaten the west not to involve itself in the conflict. People have to remember the middle east to a certain extent are Islamic\religious institutes\nations, the quran is the highest text of which the law, education, countries are based on. As we know any religious text is always up for interpretation. Majority of people maybe be moderate but as we've seen in many nations ie North Koria, Iraq, India, the hardliners are always the one's that run or control's a nation.

Israel is in a no win situation, all parties around do not recognise it, and want it's doom. You cannot negotiate peace if those your negotiating with will not even recognise your existance. I understand peoples animosity in why Israel kills innocent people and at time's seeks military response's too eagerly, but in war innocents will die, and if Hamas\Hizbullah really cared for there people they would not hide amongst women and children!!

The world today is as corrupt and seperated as ever, Iran is a great customer to nations such as Russia, China, India, especailly in selling of arms, hence are reluctant to do anything and veto any resulation. Iran now believes it has a visa to do what it likes...................World War III is a possibilty!!

[Dr The Singh]

Israel has the nerve to lecture Lebanon about non-compliance with UN resolutions.

That's very rich coming from a country which has ignored the UN for the past FORTY years.

But the Zionist lobby (both Jewish and Christian fundamentalists) holds sway in the US (Israel's main protector and bankroller), and is likely to continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

Unless Europe is brave enough to take as strong a stand against Jewish extremism as it took against the Taliban, massacres on both sides will continue!

Israel, in the past has been an aggressor and I agree that it has violated many UN resolutions etc but so have so many, but overall Israel has not helped itself and it's actions has made the job of radical elements of Islam very easy. I do feel very sorry for the civilians of palestine they have had no peace or wealth etc, while Israel has had plenty, but the palestinains must realise that voilence isn't the solution, it takes away all sympathy people have for them, Israel on the other hand do not care what people think!!

Extremism in any form is bad the world, UN, G8 etc have very little power, they are divided, Israel will have to fend for itself against aggressive jihadi force........Israel for me took a step towards peace etc by giving back the Gaza strip, but Hamas took control and still fails to recognise Israel yet still wants money\donatiosn from Israel. The radical groups will never allow peace, even if Israel adhered to every UN resolution, gave back all land it took, resolved all conflicts, what would you do if you were Israel?

[Ultra]

The first step in settling this issue is simple and was mentioned by The singh. The Arab nations have to start by recognising Israel as a State because they are not going to voluntarily go away and nor would any other large resident group, like the Kurds in Iraq for example or, more parochially, the Moslems in Luton/Leeds/Leicester etc.

Neither are the Palestinians. They have been brutally treated for decades and have every right to resist occupation of their land, much of which is ILLEGAL under international law.

Until their rights are recognised and guaranteed Israel will never obtain the security it claims to seek.

[Ultra]

Israel, in the past has been an aggressor and I agree that it has violated many UN resolutions etc but so have so many, but overall Israel has not helped itself and it's actions has made the job of radical elements of Islam very easy. I do feel very sorry for the civilians of palestine they have had no peace or wealth etc, while Israel has had plenty, but the palestinains must realise that voilence isn't the solution, it takes away all sympathy people have for them, Israel on the other hand do not care what people think!!

Hamas called a ceasefire, for which it received no credit whatsoever from the West. Meanwhile Israel continued with its air strikes, assassinations (including many children), and land seizures.

If Israel insists on the right to defend itself by any means necessary it has no right to complain, when other nations claim the right to do likewise, including the Syrians and Lebanese.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Excellent points as always Thracian, the whole is issue with Islamic radicalisation (Hamas, Hizbullah, lesser extent HUT in the UK)is bigger then the Israel conflict. Nations such as Iran and Syria are tooling these people, funding from Saudi's, recently it was found that some UK Islamic charities were funding such groups.

Good points from Thracian and Singh.

I think this argument is a good one - that so long as 'hard line' Muslims (which are of course not your everyday Muslims) refuse to recogise a) the right of Israelis to live in peace and b) the right of non-Muslims to not be the target of jihad until the world is converted, peace will not be reached.

Dialogue must take place. Tolerance must be practised.

I'm also often uncomfortable with labelling any group as a 'terrorist' organisation, as while some actions would be considered terrorism, others would be fine if performed by state armies in warfare.

For example, why the hell did Israel crack the shits so bad when one of their soldiers were kidnapped? This question hasn't yet been asked. I would consider the kidnapping of enemy soldiers to be more of an acceptable action than bar-bombings where innocent civilians are killed.

The only reason I'm shitty with Hezbollah and Hamas is they continuously start shit at the borders. If they buggered off and conceded some ideological ground, and let dialogue take place we would have a lasting ceasefire, like we've seen in the Six Counties.

I don't recognise the state of 'Northern Ireland,' but I recognise the right of all civilians to live there in peace free of victimisation and violence.

A fundamental human right IMO.

[breadandcheese]

Neither are the Palestinians. They have been brutally treated for decades and have every right to resist occupation of their land, much of which is ILLEGAL under international law.

Until their rights are recognised and guaranteed Israel will never obtain the security it claims to seek.

Israel has not always behaved as one would hope, however, over the last 15 years, there has been an acceptance and recognition of the Palestinian people and their right to a state. I have travelled to Israel many times and find it to be a fascinating land, riddled with many problems but also much beauty.

A recognition of this sway in Israeli attitudes can be summed up in Ariel Sharon. Here is a man who helped build the settlements and saw the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel. Last year, he gave back the Gaza strip and had plans to pull out of parts of the West Bank. (admittedly, not all, but it is a hell of a starting point for negotiations and a show of intent).

The Palestinian people have been pissed on for years, but I would point the finger at their leadership for this. I will never forget standing on a point overlooking the West Bank looking at a multi-million dollar road funded by the EU. It was supposed to link a small village to a town. It was half built and the half that was little more than a dirt track. The money had been stoen and squandered by corrupt officials. Yasser Arafat, when he passed away was rumoured to have been close to a dollar billionaire with the money he had taken. Meanwhile the Palestinian people suffer and a new Islamic element has risen over the last decade with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism.

With the growth of Islamic fundamentalism, the sad truth is that Israel has lost any territorial concession it could have made. It does want to pull out of the West Bank, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister was voted into office on this basis, but ahead of everything, Israeli citizens crave security and will go to all costs to achieve it.

[Thracian]

Your last words of warning were exactly those I used with friends yesterday.

Fanned by the tempests of the Middle East, the whole world is becoming seriously disturbed. China has now developed significant interests right through the centre of Africa from top to bottom and is gradually speaking for an ever greater proportion of the World's natural resources (a hugely important development I have warned about before).

As China earns billions from its positive trade balance and Russia emerges from its relegation to secondary nation status, so the ever increasing debts of the US leave it in an increasingly vulnerable and threatened position which Osama Bin Laden and Al Queda increasingly use to their advantage.

The pity is that Russia seems so disinclined to modernise its autocratic way of thinking because I feel that its natural position is within rather than without the EC and as time moves on, far rather than having such an important potential allay sidelined (as the US would seem to want), it would be wiser to push Western influence as far across our European landmass as it would be accepted.

Being a Siamese twin to America, seemingly permanently joined, is not always in our best interests and I now fear that world conflict could flare sooner rather than later because of China and Russia wanting to test the strength of their wings (Taiwan remains the obvious blue touchpaper) and the US fearing that their waning influence will be the harder to reverse the more time goes on and especially if their trade deficit continues to grow.

As OBL identified, economics is everything and he has hit the West where it hurts the most - in its pocket - knowing full well where it might lead. Meanwhile Iran develops its links with China and both Iran and Syria keep fueling the flames of discontent among increasingly brainwashed and politicised Muslim peoples.

Whack these points for six by all means - they are really a pointer for debate - but I cannot view the World as anything but an always active volcano which is rumbling menacingly right now.

[breadandcheese]

For example, why the hell did Israel crack the shits so bad when one of their soldiers were kidnapped? This question hasn't yet been asked. I would consider the kidnapping of enemy soldiers to be more of an acceptable action than bar-bombings where innocent civilians are killed.

I can answer that for you. Israel adhers to the belief of never leaving a man behind. It makes a promise to the parents of its soldiers, that as they give up their children to serve the country, it will do everything in its power to protect them and never leave them deserted.

This is why there have been obscene prisoner swaps before of hundreds of prisoners for even just the dead bodies of soldiers, allowing parents to bury and grieve their fallen children properly.

It is not about cacking itself, it is about being able to look soldiers in the eyes and say without doubt that as a country, it will do everything possible to look after them.

I only wish our government would follow the same doctrine with some of the appallng stories that surface every year or two of how troops are sent out ill-equipped and under-prepared.

[Thracian]

I can answer that for you. Israel adhers to the belief of never leaving a man behind. It makes a promise to the parents of its soldiers, that as they give up their children to serve the country, it will do everything in its power to protect them and never leave them deserted.

This is why there have been obscene prisoner swaps before of hundreds of prisoners for even just the dead bodies of soldiers, allowing parents to bury and grieve their fallen children properly.

It is not about cacking itself, it is about being able to look soldiers in the eyes and say without doubt that as a country, it will do everything possible to look after them.

I only wish our government would follow the same doctrine with some of the appallng stories that surface every year or two of how troops are sent out ill-equipped and under-prepared.

Spot on

[Dr The Singh]

Good points from Thracian and Singh.

I think this argument is a good one - that so long as 'hard line' Muslims (which are of course not your everyday Muslims) refuse to recogise a) the right of Israelis to live in peace and b) the right of non-Muslims to not be the target of jihad until the world is converted, peace will not be reached.

Dialogue must take place. Tolerance must be practised.

I'm also often uncomfortable with labelling any group as a 'terrorist' organisation, as while some actions would be considered terrorism, others would be fine if performed by state armies in warfare.

For example, why the hell did Israel crack the shits so bad when one of their soldiers were kidnapped? This question hasn't yet been asked. I would consider the kidnapping of enemy soldiers to be more of an acceptable action than bar-bombings where innocent civilians are killed.

The only reason I'm shitty with Hezbollah and Hamas is they continuously start shit at the borders. If they buggered off and conceded some ideological ground, and let dialogue take place we would have a lasting ceasefire, like we've seen in the Six Counties.

I don't recognise the state of 'Northern Ireland,' but I recognise the right of all civilians to live there in peace free of victimisation and violence.

A fundamental human right IMO.

The issue there is that the UN\G8\NATO have no power, they all have different concensus's and different allegiance's all dictated by wealth and money, hence nations such as Iran, Israel, North Koria can flex there muscles as they please, the US who is the current world police is too busy, overstretched and with it's already negative perception does not want to get involved.......bring back superman!!

[Dr The Singh]

I can answer that for you. Israel adhers to the belief of never leaving a man behind. It makes a promise to the parents of its soldiers, that as they give up their children to serve the country, it will do everything in its power to protect them and never leave them deserted.

This is why there have been obscene prisoner swaps before of hundreds of prisoners for even just the dead bodies of soldiers, allowing parents to bury and grieve their fallen children properly.

It is not about cacking itself, it is about being able to look soldiers in the eyes and say without doubt that as a country, it will do everything possible to look after them.

I only wish our government would follow the same doctrine with some of the appallng stories that surface every year or two of how troops are sent out ill-equipped and under-prepared.

Great response, one which is true of true friendship, kinship and countrymen!!!!

[Ultra]

Israel has not always behaved as one would hope, however, over the last 15 years, there has been an acceptance and recognition of the Palestinian people and their right to a state. I have travelled to Israel many times and find it to be a fascinating land, riddled with many problems but also much beauty.

Unfortunately that beauty is often not easily located within the minds of its citizens.

A recognition of this sway in Israeli attitudes can be summed up in Ariel Sharon. Here is a man who helped build the settlements and saw the West Bank and Gaza as part of Israel. Last year, he gave back the Gaza strip and had plans to pull out of parts of the West Bank. (admittedly, not all, but it is a hell of a starting point for negotiations and a show of intent).

Sharon is a racist and fundamentalist bigot who is on record as describing Palestinians as "two-legged beasts". Although he did destroy settlements in Gaza (an act which was decades overdue) he also expanded others in the West Bank and built the repulsive apartheid wall to protect areas of fertile land illegally annexed by settlers.

The Palestinian people have been pissed on for years, but I would point the finger at their leadership for this. I will never forget standing on a point overlooking the West Bank looking at a multi-million dollar road funded by the EU. It was supposed to link a small village to a town. It was half built and the half that was little more than a dirt track. The money had been stoen and squandered by corrupt officials.

And when the Palestinians voted out those politicians who allowed such corruption to occur (thus exercising a right denied to too many within the Arab world and elsewhere), what recognition did the West give? Instead we allowed Israeli state terrorism to continue as it has for the last 40 years

Yasser Arafat, when he passed away was rumoured to have been close to a dollar billionaire with the money he had taken. Meanwhile the Palestinian people suffer and a new Islamic element has risen over the last decade with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism.

The key word is "rumoured". In the absence of any hard evidence I will treat that statement as US/Israeli propaganda, which it it probably is.

With the growth of Islamic fundamentalism, the sad truth is that Israel has lost any territorial concession it could have made. It does want to pull out of the West Bank, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister was voted into office on this basis, but ahead of everything, Israeli citizens crave security and will go to all costs to achieve it.

Fundamentalism has arisen because more moderate factions have been shown to be impotent and/or corrupt. The West must take its share of the blame for this for turning a blid eye to the abuses that occur in countries like Saudi Arabia.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Unfortunately that beauty is often not easily located within the minds of its citizens.

Bollocks

Sharon is a racist and fundamentalist bigot

I wouldn't go that far, although he's nowhere near as progressive as Yitzak Rahbin was.

And when the Palestinians voted out those politicians who allowed such corruption to occur (thus exercising a right denied to too many within the Arab world and elsewhere), what recognition did the West give?

None, although the Hamas platform is clearly questionable and in violation of human rights doctrine.

Instead we allowed Israeli state terrorism to continue as it has for the last 40 years

Again we throw around the T word - if you are going to use that word you have to apply it to Hamas as well.

Fundamentalism has arisen because more moderate factions have been shown to be impotent and/or corrupt. The West must take its share of the blame for this for turning a blid eye to the abuses that occur in countries like Saudi Arabia.

That's also true, but I think these so called fundamentalists now must concede ideological ground for the peace process to continue.

[breadandcheese]

Unfortunately that beauty is often not easily located within the minds of its citizens.

Sharon is a racist and fundamentalist bigot who is on record as describing Palestinians as "two-legged beasts". Although he did destroy settlements in Gaza (an act which was decades overdue) he also expanded others in the West Bank and built the repulsive apartheid wall to protect areas of fertile land illegally annexed by settlers.

Sharon is the perfect analogy for the people of Israel because the changes he exhibited are exactly what the majority of the Israeli public have gone through. Sadly, you refuse to recognise any changes he went through. Make no mistake, as overdue as it was, the pull-out and destruction of the settlements for Israel in Gaza was no easy thing to do. It threatened the stability of its country and had the potential to ignite a civil war, however, the sensible majority prevailed and the pull-out went ahead.

The case is made for Israel being apartheid, however, it is often through misinformation. Here is an interesting article from the Guardian on this subject. I can see the logic of building a big wall. Logic, we are being hit by suicide bombers from the West Bank, so let's build a big seperation barrier to stop potential bombers crossing into Israel and blowing themselves up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1704895,00.html

And when the Palestinians voted out those politicians who allowed such corruption to occur (thus exercising a right denied to too many within the Arab world and elsewhere), what recognition did the West give? Instead we allowed Israeli state terrorism to continue as it has for the last 40 years

I can see the Israeli point of view here. The basis for any peace talks, before any discussions of land, has to be the acceptance by both parties to each others rights and claims to the land. Despite the ceasefire that Hamas proclaimed, rockets were being fired over the border, weapons being smuggled into the Gaza Strip.

At this time, the Palestinian people were close to civil war between Islamic fundamentalists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad) and secular Arab groups (such as Fatah). The cynic inside of me says that perhaps the struggle between Israel and the Palestininans in Gaza was relit after the pullout, in order to avert the civil war that was brewing.

The key word is "rumoured". In the absence of any hard evidence I will treat that statement as US/Israeli propaganda, which it it probably is.

Fundamentalism has arisen because more moderate factions have been shown to be impotent and/or corrupt. The West must take its share of the blame for this for turning a blid eye to the abuses that occur in countries like Saudi Arabia.

The rumours persist, precisely because the Palestinian government have never been open with regards their finances. Arafat was flown to France for treatment when he was dying. The question is, why France? Possibly because of their privacy laws regarding the publishing of records. Arafat's estranged wife is still receiving bumper monthly payments by the Palestinian Authority to fund her life in the West whilst Palestinian people suffer.

The west may have failed to act in the past (although it is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't), but this is no reason why this rise in fundamentalism should be excused ot tolerated with the acts of violence that occur.

[Ultra]

Bollocks

If you hadn't been so dismissive and immature I might have been inclined to respond to the rest of you arguments.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Or you could just be tired of intellectual jousting

[Ultra]

Sharon is the perfect analogy for the people of Israel because the changes he exhibited are exactly what the majority of the Israeli public have gone through. Sadly, you refuse to recognise any changes he went through. Make no mistake, as overdue as it was, the pull-out and destruction of the settlements for Israel in Gaza was no easy thing to do. It threatened the stability of its country and had the potential to ignite a civil war, however, the sensible majority prevailed and the pull-out went ahead.

But as we have seen, the people of Gaza remain subject to severe sanctions, air strikes, assassinations (mainly of civilians) and remain heavily dependent on Israeli "goodwill". They remain in severe poverty because under present conditions they have no hope of a viable state.

The case is made for Israel being apartheid, however, it is often through misinformation. Here is an interesting article from the Guardian on this subject. I can see the logic of building a big wall. Logic, we are being hit by suicide bombers from the West Bank, so let's build a big seperation barrier to stop potential bombers crossing into Israel and blowing themselves up.

The "security" argument is seductive but false. The real issue is annexation of fertile land, thus denying it to use by the Palestinian majority.

[breadandcheese]

But as we have seen, the people of Gaza remain subject to severe sanctions, air strikes, assassinations (mainly of civilians) and remain heavily dependent on Israeli "goodwill". They remain in severe poverty because under present conditions they have no hope of a viable state.

The "security" argument is seductive but false. The real issue is annexation of fertile land, thus denying it to use by the Palestinian majority.

I'm not sure I can agree with the statement of "they remain in severe poverty because under present conditions they have no hope of a viable state." Wealth is not dependent on a viable state. There are many viable states that endure hardship and poverty. I would argue that governance is more important than a state. Corruption has reigned for many years, with the goal seemingly to perpetuate the struggle being seen as the most effective governance to deflect this. The election of Hamas, was in part a reaction to this corruption, with Hamas being seen as less tainted.

However, the election of Hamas is a dangerous element with the Islamic fundamentalism it brings as governance. Again, their aim is to fight against this antithesis of an islamic state, Israel, with the rationale being as long as we're fighting, defeat is staved off. In effect, the struggle is placed as the most important item on the agenda, regardless of curing social ills, such as the poverty you mention. It then comes as no surprise that as a people, they become dependent on Israeli "goodwill", for whlist they are fighting, money is diverted from social projects and indeed casualties result from the fighting.

We all talk of peace, which is want everybody wants to see, but both sides have to agree a deal before they can both haggle over price and terms. Israel seems now at a stage where it recognises the rights and claims of the Palestinian, Hamas is not there in recognising Israel's right to exist. Once both sides agree on this, then there is the basis for peace talks.

However, in all this talking of the Palestinian issue and lumping it in with the trouble in Lebanon, we are deviating off topic. To talk of the Palestinian conflict and thus link it with Hezbollah is to provide Hezbollah with a legitimacy which is not there.