Israel

[Ultra]

Don't worry your precious little head about it then ~ we all realise that you have the cognitive skills of a Big Brother contestant. Twta.

Though that may be doing an injustice to B*g B*****r!

[Ultra]

There is a difference between killing in cold blood and casualties of war.

Civilians are not the target.

You obviously don't see the same news bulletins that the rest of us do.

Why have half a million residents been forced to flee their own homes?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

If it wasn't for the continual propaganda of hatred that the Arab media appear to peddle with relish then some thinking Moslems would be trying to look at circumstances from the opposite perspective as well as their own and trying to find solutions rather than trying to justify continued hatred with its accompanying slaughter.

Hezbollah don't have much else to excuse their recent behaviour.

A wise man called Yoda once said "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering!" Warfare should indeed never be declared in the name of any God.

Human beings were born with brains to sort such differences out. The problem is that too many brains are no longer controlled by their owners, they are being systematically manipulated and that is probably the greatest sin of all. Rape of the body is widely condemned but people are so unconcerned about rape of the mind and, with it, contamination of the soul.

Deep. And aye, bring out the tables and chairs, because men (and lassies) were born with mouths!

If we're not careful this thread will overtake the word association...

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Why have half a million residents been forced to flee their own homes?

I'd bugger off too if my neighbourhood were being shelled.

[Dr The Singh]

Hezbollah don't have much else to excuse their recent behaviour.

A wise man called Yoda once said "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering!" Warfare should indeed never be declared in the name of any God.

Deep. And aye, bring out the tables and chairs, because men (and lassies) were born with mouths!

If we're not careful this thread will overtake the word association...

Also, man has always been greedy, selfish and power hungry!!!!!

[The People's Hero]

I feel pretty rough this morning.

Hungover almost.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Also, man has always been greedy, selfish and power hungry!!!!!

I was born with an appetite and too much testosterone. I'd go donuts and lassies over power any day!

[breadandcheese]

British Muslims are not Palestinian Muslims but as Muslims we are one and the same. Rather like the special relationship felt by Americans and British people, but moreso.

When Israel was created millions of Palestinians fled to Lebanese refugee camps which still exist, so it is not a separate issue. Just because a large body of people were displaced from one place does not make them a separate issue. You have to remember there are still many people alive who remember fleeing their livelihoods still living in refugee camps.

I find these two lines slightly contradictory. On the one hand, we are all muslim brothers, on the other hand we are not quite brotherly enough to help as a neighbouring muslim country but will instead dump you into refugee camps.

For the balance of the refugee issue, Israel's argument is that at the same time, many Arab and Muslim countries expelled their Jews (similar numbers of Palestinian refugees), so Israel took them in and helped them. The issue of today's refugees is obviously particularly poignant when it comes to final settlement issues because if they resettled into Israel in any peace deal, it would be the eradication of the state of Israel through sheer weight of population.

However, again, I stray from the point in terms of Palestinian-Lebanese connection in this current crisis. Hezbollah are a Shia organisation, and quite seperate to the Palestinian cause. They have more in common with Iran than hardline fundamentalist Palestinian groups (note: not all Palestinian factions). Their only link is their mutual dislike of and aim to (in the words of Iran's president) to "wipe Israel off the map". In this current crisis in Lebanon, the only other possible tenuous link I can find between Hezbollah and the Palestinians is political with Iran's attempt to increase its influence throughout the Palestinian people (and Middle East), a frightening thought for the Sunni Muslims in the Middle East.

[Ultra]

I think a lot of these people want to feel hatred - or are being blatantly influenced to feel hatred because it satisfies the overall purpose of the fanatics in wishing to Moslemise the world.

If it wasn't for the continual propaganda of hatred that the Arab media and manipulators appear to peddle with relish then some thinking Moslems would be trying to look at circumstances from the opposite perspective as well as their own and trying to find solutions rather than trying to justify continued hatred with its accompanying slaughter. As we had to in Northern Ireland.

Bottom line is that warfare is nothing less than disgusting and warfare in the name of God is an insult to the very concept of such beliefs - as I have said many times in relation to that hypocrite Blair.

Human beings were born with brains to sort differences out. The problem is that too many brains are no longer controlled by their owners, they are being systematically manipulated and that is probably the greatest sin of all.

Rape of the body is widely condemned but people are so unconcerned about rape of the mind and, with it, contamination of the soul.

Those responsible cannot truly believe in any God. They only act in the name of God because religious people are vulnerable to exploitation.

It happened in the Western world, especially at the time of the Inquisition, but if such apologists for right thinking honestly believed their own words they would live in deepest fear for their eternal futures.

Come the judgement day so often mentioned in their pathetic rantings, they will surely face everlasting condemnation but that does not temper them on earth because their beliefs are nothing but surface beliefs, rhetoric for effect.

They are terrorists and manipulators by choice and inclination and were they not religious terrorists they would be idealistic or criminal terrorists of some other sort. They want to exert power, they want to control people and they want to be cruel.

The extent of their success is confirmed by the many, supposedly brave, people who would strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves into eternity for a perceived cause but are not brave enough to say no - I want my brain for myself and I love my God far more deeply than to ever to have his name associated with any sort of evil.

But it's still happening now. Look at the USA - the most prominent "Christian" nation on earth - and the hold that religious fundamentalism has there.

The zealots do not fear the prospect of Armageddon in the Middle East - in fact they welcome it, since their faith tells them that they will live forever in paradise, while non-believers will be condemned to rot in hell. This is of course a mirror image of the tactics used by Islamists to recruit people for suicide bombing missions.

If Christ was to walk in Palestine today I doubt he would be impressed.

[The People's Hero]

I like 'dem onions!

[Thracian]

But it's still happening now. Look at the USA - the most prominent "Christian" nation on earth - and the hold that religious fundamentalism has there.

The zealots do not fear the prospect of Armageddon in the Middle East - in fact they welcome it, since their faith tells them that they will live forever in paradise, while non-believers will be condemned to rot in hell. This is of course a mirror image of the tactics used by Islamists to recruit people for suicide bombing missions.

If Christ was to walk in Palestine today I doubt he would be impressed.

Too right. I think he'd suggest the gates of Heaven were closed and bolted.

[moseeds]

There is a difference between killing in cold blood and casualties of war.

Civilians are not the target. If they were, I wouldn't be supporting Israel's right to not have to put up with geurilla aggressors. And these aggressors don't even have a legitimate purpose or role, such as Hamas operations in Gaza and only Gaza, beyond wanting to exterminate Israel, which is a tad excessive don't you think?

Hizbullah has declared war against Israel so therefore if the Israeli soldiers are killed then they are casualties of war? Or the Israeli civilians killed are casualties of war? Civilians in Lebanon are clearly the target. Yes, wanting to exterminate Israel is wrong. So is killing many Lebanese civlians in response to Israeli defence personel being taken hostage.

At this moment and time i'm disgusted by the west etc allowing Israel 2 weeks to bombard Lebanon....the question must be asked, are Israel really destroying Hizbolah or Lebenon, whatever the answer...the civilians are suffering.

I'm also disgusted by some arab nations, the 'special relationship' that moseed mentions, does not comprehend common sense and instead of condemning Hamas, and Hizbolah, without analysing the situation are rapid in the condemnation of Israel. They should sort there own backyards ie look at there actions first, actions that cause civil unrest in the world before trying to piont a finger at Israel. We all know this is not possible, most of the Arab world are run by bigots!!! One must question, in relation to Israel does the middle east want peace, the answer I give is no, hence they must take a large chunk of blame for the current situation. Any nation ruled by religion will always see people outside that religion with fear and hostility!!

I agree The Singh, I don't understand how Israel is being given permission to do what it is. It's like watching a strange dreamworld of world political events.

The Arab countries (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Kuwait) are pretty much useless. Their regimes are corrupt and murderers of their own people. The middle east will not have peace for as long as these puppet regimes exist.

Come the judgement day so often mentioned in their pathetic rantings, they will surely face everlasting condemnation but that does not temper them on earth because their beliefs are nothing but surface beliefs, rhetoric for effect.

I agree with you Thracian.

You obviously don't see the same news bulletins that the rest of us do.

Why have half a million residents been forced to flee their own homes?

Exactly Ultra. The British and the rest wouldn't bother evacuating if they didn't think this bombing campaign was going to turn even more ugly in a very short period of time. The news I have watched on BBC, CNN, SKY etc seems to gloss over the ridiculousness of the Israeli response. I don't understand how they can do this as serious journalists.

I find these two lines slightly contradictory. On the one hand, we are all muslim brothers, on the other hand we are not quite brotherly enough to help as a neighbouring muslim country but will instead dump you into refugee camps.

For the balance of the refugee issue, Israel's argument is that at the same time, many Arab and Muslim countries expelled their Jews (similar numbers of Palestinian refugees), so Israel took them in and helped them. The issue of today's refugees is obviously particularly poignant when it comes to final settlement issues because if they resettled into Israel in any peace deal, it would be the eradication of the state of Israel through sheer weight of population.

They aren't contradictory. The refugees fled to neighbouring countries at a time when many of those same states became independent from British or French control. They still have meagre resources etc. How would today's UK cope with a Million or so refugees? Even with our nations relative richness we would struggle.

Arab countries expelled their Jewish populations after hostilities with Israel started, many left to join the new state as an act of duty. Prior to Israel's creation there were many Jewish pockets of populations (majority of Jews were from Europe because of hostility from many European countries).

[Your Mom]

Yes I'm totally sure

that you guys know

every single fact about

what is happening and

can really relate to being

middle-eastern guys.

[moseeds]

Yes I'm totally sure

that you guys know

every single fact about

what is happening and

can really relate to being

middle-eastern guys.

Nope, I don't think any of us do. Doesn't stop us speaking out against injustice though.

[The People's Hero]

Yes I'm totally sure

that you guys know

every single fact about

what is happening and

can really relate to being

middle-eastern guys.

I'd love to kick you really hard in the balls

[macbeth]

I'd love to kick you really hard in the balls

do you mind....there's a queue

[Ultra]

I'd love to kick you really hard in the balls

If you can find those targets in order to kick them, you're a better man than I...

[Cat Bụrger]

Hehehehe, how quickly

you guys seem to forget

about Israel when you

get a whiff of my balls!

[Head Honcho]

By your reasoning Allen, the IRA was therefore justified in its bombing campaign. As far as they were concerned the the "ends" was re-unification, even though nothing was achieved.

I said in Israels eye not mine!

I think they are right to target Hezbollah in Lebanon.

I do however disagree with them dropping bombs indiscriminately.

The reason for so many Civilian casualties is simple Hezbollah choose to live amongst the local people and this in some way is Israels justification to bomb them. hoping that in the future the local will not allow them to.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Hizbullah has declared war against Israel so therefore if the Israeli soldiers are killed then they are casualties of war? Or the Israeli civilians killed are casualties of war? Civilians in Lebanon are clearly the target. Yes, wanting to exterminate Israel is wrong. So is killing many Lebanese civlians in response to Israeli defence personel being taken hostage.

Hezbollah have declared war against Israel's citizens, being 'infidels.' Conversely Hezbollah have no claim to declare war against the Israeli state, they're not even representative of a nation state. As someone mentioned before, they're closer to Iran than anyone else. They're merely a bunch of racist extremists who don't want to settle for anything less than seeing every Jew wiped out.

On the other hand Israel has every right to root out these little blighters for nothing more than stirring shit in the name of their extremist views and targeting civilians.

That's Hezbollah. I still maintain that their actions should be separate from Palestine's struggle. The Hamas campaign in Gaza is more justifiable a thousand times over.

[Ultra]

The struggles in Palestine and Lebanon ARE linked, whether you like it or not.

Hezbollah may have been trying to open up a second front and reduce Israeli atrocities in Gaza.

Israeli's over-reaction has destroyed the economy and infrastructure of the only genuinely pluralist "moderate" democracy in the region.

How much longer can we afford (financially or morally) to turn a blind eye to them?

[breadandcheese]

Hezbollah may have been trying to open up a second front and reduce Israeli atrocities in Gaza.

I actually think tthe more likely reason for Hezbollah's actions can be found in the article below (and as I have said in a previous post).

This is a proxy war, started by Iran. Israel I believe is now trying to curb growing Iranian influence in the region on behalf of many nations, including some Arab countries who are less than thrilled about Iranian desires. Article in today's telegraph really displays it bare with various comings and goings of Iranian officials in the region.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jh...7/21/do2102.xml

[Ultra]

That is possible, but just as plausible is the idea that Israeli's actions could have been done with US backing to distract the world from events in Iraq.

It's certainly VERY unlikely that the sustained bombing raids and so-called "targetted killings" in both Gaza and Lebanon would have been carried out without explicit US approval.

Israel is like an exceedingly spoilt child, whose every whim is indulged by its sugar daddies and consequently has not bothered to learn the basic rules of human behaviour.

Even Israelis themselves are realising that their government has over-reached itself, and are asking for the UN to intervene.

Unfortunately the real power lies (in both senses of the word) in the White House. And George W has made it clear that in his eyes the only good Arab is a dead Arab (unless purveying cheap oil of course!)

[davieG]

I'm sure they also think, along with many others that the only Bush is a

[moseeds]

The reason for so many Civilian casualties is simple Hezbollah choose to live amongst the local people and this in some way is Israels justification to bomb them. hoping that in the future the local will not allow them to.

This latest conflict is de javu as far as the people of Lebanon are concerned. The future you talk of was also talked about in 1983, but it didn't quite work out. What makes you think it will this time round?

Hezbollah have declared war against Israel's citizens, being 'infidels.' Conversely Hezbollah have no claim to declare war against the Israeli state, they're not even representative of a nation state. As someone mentioned before, they're closer to Iran than anyone else. They're merely a bunch of racist extremists who don't want to settle for anything less than seeing every Jew wiped out.

On the other hand Israel has every right to root out these little blighters for nothing more than stirring shit in the name of their extremist views and targeting civilians.

That's Hezbollah. I still maintain that their actions should be separate from Palestine's struggle. The Hamas campaign in Gaza is more justifiable a thousand times over.

Hizbullah believes it is fighting for the Palestinian people. Whether the Palestinian people agree or not is a different matter. Israel has a right to retaliate against Hizbullah, but not in the fashion it is doing by killing innocent Lebanese civilians. On the news today a Lebanese doctor said over 65% of the patients in his hospital are children. How can Israel still justify killing them in attempting to rescue 2 soldiers?

That is possible, but just as plausible is the idea that Israeli's actions could have been done with US backing to distract the world from events in Iraq.

It's certainly VERY unlikely that the sustained bombing raids and so-called "targetted killings" in both Gaza and Lebanon would have been carried out without explicit US approval.

Israel is like an exceedingly spoilt child, whose every whim is indulged by its sugar daddies and constantly has not bothered to learn the basic rules of human behaviour.

Even Israelis themselves are realising that their government has over-reached itself, and are asking for the UN to intervene.

Unfortunately the real power lies (in both senses of the word) in the White House. And George W has made it clear that in his eyes the only good Arab is a dead Arab.

Yep Ultra, i get the feeling this whole situation is deeper than any of us can fathom. It seems like a pre-planned set of events. The Lebanese government has said it will defend its nation if it has to - rightly so. It looks like things are going to get a lot worse. It will be interesting to see Yo Tony and Bush's response to Israel if Lebanon does mobilse troops.

The Telegraph article might be on to something there. There was an interesting article in The Times yesterday regarding celebrating attacks on the British by Jewish terrorist groups in 1946. Its funny how people forget their own history so quickly.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...77717_1,00.html