Israel

[macbeth]

It's all the Romans fault, if they hadn't conquered Britain, well who knows but it would have been different and probably Materazzi wouldn't have said those things to ZZ.

what have they ever done for us ..........bl**dy romans

[Daggers]

It's all the Romans fault, if they hadn't conquered Britain, well who knows but it would have been different and probably Materazzi wouldn't have said those things to ZZ.

"Romans they go the house?"

It has baffled me why the international community has failed to act in a more consistently unilateral manner over the Middle East issue. Admittedly, having nations denying anothers right to exist can be a bit of a stumbling block.

For decades Europe has followed the lead of the US on all matters ME, (aside from France, obviously). I think it is high time for the EU to place collective pressure on the UN to take action in the form of trade embargoes on all disputing territories.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

That used to be true in the past but in recent time's the Israeli people have demanded that their leaders find a peaceful solution to the trouble's in the area.

Since Israel's withdrawal from The Lebanon in 2000 Ehud Barak and Ariel Sharon have given in to many demands set by the Palestinians the only sticking point seems to be the Israeli's insistance of The West Bank Wall.

This is how I feel. I think breadandcheese also raised some good points with regards to the UN's treatment of terrorist organisations.

I think it would be stupid for any military structure to give away ground at the beginning of a campaign if they are fighting to gain something. However, as I said in my first post, there is a time to sit down and talk, and that has largely been appreciated not only by the Israeli people but also by the leaders of Likud.

Hamas on the other hand has not conceded any ground, even with the developments in Gaza.

[macbeth]

This is how I feel. I think breadandcheese also raised some good points with regards to the UN's treatment of terrorist organisations.

I think it would be stupid for any military structure to give away ground at the beginning of a campaign if they are fighting to gain something. However, as I said in my first post, there is a time to sit down and talk, and that has largely been appreciated not only by the Israeli people but also by the leaders of Likud.

Hamas on the other hand has not conceded any ground, even with the developments in Gaza.

sometimes too much expectation is made of negotiated settlements; it starts with the premise that both sides are ready to negotiate and compromise , this never seems to be the case in the mid east

and i sometimes think that if a mugger takes £100 from you why should you negotiate a settlement that allows him to keep £50

[hairy]

Before 1948, Gaza was under the mandate of us (Britain)

I think you will find officially it was under the UN and we were there to uphold the UN as happens to this day under the banner of peace keeping force.

[breadandcheese]

I think you will find officially it was under the UN and we were there to uphold the UN as happens to this day under the banner of peace keeping force.

I think you'll find the the British and French had mandates over large parts of the Middle East from 1918 after the defeat of the Ottoman Turk empire in World War 1, which had previously assumed these areas under its empire.

The UN of course came into being in 1945, long after these mandates had been assumed. To think of these mandates as under the UN banner is false and should be looked at through the defeat of the Ottoman Turks in 1918.

[Steven]

Steven,

The list of UN resolutions you have put forward, showing Israel's violations is indeed condemning, until the reality is understood.

If you look at the tit for tat history throughout the last 60 years in the Middle East, you would expect a similar number of resolutions condeming the tactics of terrorists groups against Israel and those countries aiding and abetting such terrorists groups. This has not been the case.

For example, the recent provocation by Hezbollah would, one expect warrant a similar condemnation in the UN. Look at the military exercution of the operation. The militant group, funded and trained by Syria and Iran studied the weakpoints in the Israeli border over a number of years, climbed over this border, laid an ambush trap, killed 5 soldiers out on border patrol, took hostage 2 soldiers, climbed back over the border. In the process of this, and to create a diversion from the attack, this group also fired rockets randomly at civilians in towns and cities. No resolutions condemning this or calling on Iran and Syria to exercise restraint on the part of Hezbollah.

Israel throughout the last 60 years has seen this uneven approach the UN takes (not difficult when there is many Arab and Muslim countries voting against one Jewish country) and realised that to follow the UN approach would actually result in the deaths of its citizens. It almost seems that it doesn't matter if Israel does pull out of Gaza or places like that. It is no wonder then that Israel, has now chosen to ignore the UN and decide to look after its self, rather than relying on the international community, which would surely have led to more deaths of its citizens. Yes, it does come accross almost as an arrogance, but that is the last of the concerns of the Israeli leaders.

All I am saying is that it's a tense situation, which we shouldn't just look at from our comfortable area of the UK. We have never been in a position where groups and countries surrounding us want to wipe us off the face off the earth, simply for the fact that we are alive. Look at it through these eyes and you can start to understand the Israeli position, which can then be used to start negotiations for peace talks, with the preoccupation for security, and hopefully lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state and peace throughout the Middle East.

Israel has caused more death than all the terrorists put together. Moreover to call someone a terrorist who fighting against an occupier of their land is akin to the NAZIs calling the French Resistence "terrorists". Terrorists are like those people in Mumbai recently.

If Israel were to pull back to the 1967 borders there would be credence to your arguments however as they do not then what we see in the Middle East is more akin to a war and consequent armed struggle than merely random acts of terrorism.

[Dr The Singh]

Israel has caused more death than all the terrorists put together. Moreover to call someone a terrorist who fighting against an occupier of their land is akin to the NAZIs calling the French Resistence "terrorists". Terrorists are like those people in Mumbai recently.

If Israel were to pull back to the 1967 borders there would be credence to your arguments however as they do not then what we see in the Middle East is more akin to a war and consequent armed struggle than merely random acts of terrorism.

Agreed.

A prime example today is India (known to Indians as Hindustan) India has been one of the largest advocators of 'state lead terrorism' against those that want independance or freedom eg Kashmir, Punjab, Tamil Nadu, Sikkim, and many more. Forget Indian Forces, Indian sponsored terrorist have killed far more then any terrorist eg

1984 Golden Temple Sikh Massacre ie Blue Star Operation

Government lead thugs killed over 100,000 Sikhs and has still yet to release tens of thousands of prisoners which are in prison without charge. Nanapati Report, a government enquiry has proven links to the congress government, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED OR CONVICTED FOR THE MASSACRE

Gujarat Riots X 2, over 30,000 Muslims killed by goverment lead thugs NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED OR CONVICTED FOR THE MASSACRE

Hindustan are as a government policy, terrorisng the moniroty groups!!

[breadandcheese]

Israel has caused more death than all the terrorists put together. Moreover to call someone a terrorist who fighting against an occupier of their land is akin to the NAZIs calling the French Resistence "terrorists". Terrorists are like those people in Mumbai recently.

If Israel were to pull back to the 1967 borders there would be credence to your arguments however as they do not then what we see in the Middle East is more akin to a war and consequent armed struggle than merely random acts of terrorism.

We have a discrepancy in definitions. I fail to see how a Hamas terrorist in Gaza, who refuses to accept the right of Israel to exist in any shape of form, who mainly attacks civilian areas can be called anythong else (the countless number of military missions against those strategic targets of restaurants, cafes, shopping malls, buses, not forgetting the indiscrinate use of rockets against civilians in towns inside of Israel. The interesting point to note on the Hamas rocket attacks is that the range of these is poor, such that it has only been possible for Hamas to hit Israeli citizens with these because Israel pulled out completely from Gaza and so there are now no more buffer zones).

I cannot help feel that had these terrorist groups access to the same technical knowhow as Israel, there ould be far more deaths caused by terrorists, far higher than Israel. Israel is not squeaky clean, far from it, but it does not actively target innocent civilians. When fighting terrorist groups (my definition of a terrorist is those who seek to kill civilians), they always seem to locate themselves in populous civilian areas. No military has yet come up with a way of targetting and defeating terrorists without harming civilians.

Most outcries seem to come as a disproportionate use of force. However, should Israel use the same tactics and weapons of indiscriminately firing rockets at populated town centres, I imagine the outcry would be far higher, with my voice also added to that list.

Forgetting all that, what are Hezbollah fighting for. Israel is not in Lebanon, nor is occupying any of its lands. It pulled out in 2000 to comply with the UN resolution and hopefully achieve a peaceful situation along its northern border.

[Cal]

Im on Holiday now in Turkey and theres LOADS of Isrealis here and not so many Lebanese

[sackmycook]

Well done Israel!!!

I only wish India would have the courage to do the same to Pakistan

[sackmycook]

1984 Golden Temple Sikh Massacre ie Blue Star Operation

Government lead thugs killed over 100,000 Sikhs and has still yet to release tens of thousands of prisoners which are in prison without charge. Nanapati Report, a government enquiry has proven links to the congress government, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED OR CONVICTED FOR THE MASSACRE

Down to the Congress party headed by an Italian au pair. Voted back into power recently. Who now have a 'puppet' Sikh prime minister.

Remember the anti Sikh riots were due to the Sikh assassination of the PM.

Gujarat Riots X 2, over 30,000 Muslims killed by goverment lead thugs NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED OR CONVICTED FOR THE MASSACRE

The term 2002 Gujarat violence refers to the riots which were triggered on February 27, 2002 by an attack on a passenger train, the Sabarmati Express, passing through the town of Godhra. The train was forcibly stopped and attacked at Signal Falia near Godhra Junction by a Muslim mob. Ladies Coach S6 bore the brunt of mob attack. In the midst of attack, Coach S6 caught fire killing 59 passangers, most of whom were women and children.

If the so-called minority groups want to shit in the country and on the majority people of the country (a bit like what is happening here now) what do you want Indians to turn the other cheek and say yeah ok, bomb us and kill us. just like your kith and kind have been doing for centuries?

[Daggers]

Well done Israel!!!

I only wish India would have the courage to do the same to Pakistan

Hmm...a career in the diplomatic service beckons...

[Steven]

We have a discrepancy in definitions. I fail to see how a Hamas terrorist in Gaza, who refuses to accept the right of Israel to exist in any shape of form, who mainly attacks civilian areas can be called anythong else (the countless number of military missions against those strategic targets of restaurants, cafes, shopping malls, buses, not forgetting the indiscrinate use of rockets against civilians in towns inside of Israel. The interesting point to note on the Hamas rocket attacks is that the range of these is poor, such that it has only been possible for Hamas to hit Israeli citizens with these because Israel pulled out completely from Gaza and so there are now no more buffer zones).

I cannot help feel that had these terrorist groups access to the same technical knowhow as Israel, there ould be far more deaths caused by terrorists, far higher than Israel. Israel is not squeaky clean, far from it, but it does not actively target innocent civilians. When fighting terrorist groups (my definition of a terrorist is those who seek to kill civilians), they always seem to locate themselves in populous civilian areas. No military has yet come up with a way of targetting and defeating terrorists without harming civilians.

Most outcries seem to come as a disproportionate use of force. However, should Israel use the same tactics and weapons of indiscriminately firing rockets at populated town centres, I imagine the outcry would be far higher, with my voice also added to that list.

Forgetting all that, what are Hezbollah fighting for. Israel is not in Lebanon, nor is occupying any of its lands. It pulled out in 2000 to comply with the UN resolution and hopefully achieve a peaceful situation along its northern border.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

[Daggers]

Surely, this thread demonstrates the impossibility of the situation?

Most of the contributers to this thread argue a point based on the relative culpability of one of the sides. This is what all the parties in the Middle East have been encouraging - we need a no blame approach coupled with universally applicable sanctions in order to attempt to resolve this protracted conflict.

Until we accept that all parties have a case to be argued, no forward momentum can be achieved.

Who cares who invaded who in 1973, who exploded a bomb or how far a fukcing rocket can travel? All that does is extend a conflict that inflicts suffering on tens of thousands of innocent bystanders.

[Dr The Singh]

Down to the Congress party headed by an Italian au pair. Voted back into power recently. Who now have a 'puppet' Sikh prime minister.

Remember the anti Sikh riots were due to the Sikh assassination of the PM.Trains carrying Hindu pilgrims were torched roasting them alive. Provocation by muslims.

If the so-called minority groups want to shit in the country and on the majority people of the country (a bit like what is happening here now) what do you want Indians to turn the other cheek and say yeah ok, bomb us and kill us. just like your kith and kind have been doing for centuries?

It wasn't the average Hindu that killed the Sikhs after her just murder, the average hindu was quite sympathetic towards the Sikhs, as the Nanpati Report (a government enquiry )explicit states, the Congress Party and it's pro hindu groups BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena etc hired goons and police orchastrated the attack!!!

What about the non proliferation of the Anandpur Sahib Agreement by Gandhi\Nehru operation bluestar and operation black thunder, what about the 59th Amendment to Indian constitution allowing any police officer to kill any suspect without any consequence applied ONLY in punjab after bluestar, I could write a whole list of congress\Indian governments terrorist activities against the Sikhs and it's anti sikh stance......

India is ruled by pro Hindu, groups and poltical parties, ie BJP, RSS, Shiv Sena who all make the BNP look like the green party!!

Believe me, I have nothing against any Indian, only those that have an agenda to wipe away Sikhi or amalgamate it into Hinduism!!!

[breadandcheese]

This is a factually incorrect statement.

I am always willing to listen and be proved wrong, however, don't believe I have written anything that is factually incorrect (bar by my bad typing with obvious spelling mistakes). Please bring your evidence to the table and allow me to refute your protestation of factually incorrect.

[Rincewind]

Can I be a little self indulgent? I wrote this a few years ago when the IRA stuff was going on. It was my thoughts then and it s my thoughts now. It is a poem. Excuse the strangeness. You have to read my mind to understand it. I knew where I was coming from anyway. Sometimes I find it easier to express feelings in poetry rather than prose.

PEACE TALKS

I had an uneasy feeling

When I saw that meeting.

Two men staring face to face

Signs of emotion rhere was not a trace.

Each one argued his case weak and strong.

Both were convinced the other was wrong.

The first one said justify your bomb

That killed the innocent old and young.

The second one spoke freedom is worth fighting for

Those people were unlucky. Casualties of war.

Thto men debated all night and all day

Taking no heed of what the other had to say.

Then I saw the reason why things were so strange,

Two men so stubborn, opinions that would never change.

Eye eying eye two became one

Speaking in a single voice, mirrored with fusion.

My conclusion is they are all as bad as each other

[sackmycook]

Believe me, I have nothing against any Indian, only those that have an agenda to wipe away Sikhi or amalgamate it into Hinduism!!!

I understand what you are saying, but remember the congis (i have no love for them and as far as i am concerned the more of that so called dynasty which is assassinated the better) were in power and they were the ones who instigated the riots and made the laws. and i am pleased that you say that the average Hindu does not have a problem. In fact the RSS protected Sikhs during those dark days.

If you had been born from any other womb, you probably would not have been allowed to survive. The likes of the spanish inquisition and the mullahs would have condemned Sikhs to heresy. Even the Jews had Jesus, one of their own, killed, did we do such a thing to Guru Nanak?

But you didnt you came from a people and a place which has always been religiously tolerant. Jews, Zorastirans and others have found refuge there and never once have we tried to spread our religion to convert with the aim of wiping out people. So please dont be paranoid to say that after all this time has passed we now want to amalgamate or destroy Sikhs.

Just aint true bro.

[Dr The Singh]

Down to the Congress party headed by an Italian au pair. Voted back into power recently. Who now have a 'puppet' Sikh prime minister.

Remember the anti Sikh riots were due to the Sikh assassination of the PM.

The term 2002 Gujarat violence refers to the riots which were triggered on February 27, 2002 by an attack on a passenger train, the Sabarmati Express, passing through the town of Godhra. The train was forcibly stopped and attacked at Signal Falia near Godhra Junction by a Muslim mob. Ladies Coach S6 bore the brunt of mob attack. In the midst of attack, Coach S6 caught fire killing 59 passangers, most of whom were women and children.

If the so-called minority groups want to shit in the country and on the majority people of the country (a bit like what is happening here now) what do you want Indians to turn the other cheek and say yeah ok, bomb us and kill us. just like your kith and kind have been doing for centuries?

Sorry we are talking about Punjab which is in fact an autonomous state as agreed by Nehru and Gandhi in the Anandpur sahib agreement during partition....so the majority in punjab are Sikhs!!!!

Sikhs have fought long and hard for India on all fronts and consitiuent around 25% of the armed forces for a group of people that are less then 3% of the population that is quite a majority, so who is the more patriotic towards India??????

Your statement about my kin and kind have been doing for centuries...is an insult and I take it very offensively, please substantiate The Sikhs have been the forefront of freedom of Punjab, where they are the majority, against invaders, first the moguls, against the brits and have never asked what they are not entitled to, so your talking cock and bull.

[Dr The Singh]

I understand what you are saying, but remember the congis (i have no love for them and as far as i am concerned the more of that so called dynasty which is assassinated the better) were in power and they were the ones who instigated the riots and made the laws. and i am pleased that you say that the average Hindu does not have a problem. In fact the RSS protected Sikhs during those dark days.

If you had been born from any other womb, you probably would not have been allowed to survive. The likes of the spanish inquisition and the mullahs would have condemned Sikhs to heresy. Even the Jews had Jesus, one of their own, killed, did we do such a thing to Guru Nanak?

But you didnt you came from a people and a place which has always been religiously tolerant. Jews, Zorastirans and others have found refuge there and never once have we tried to spread our religion to convert with the aim of wiping out people. So please dont be paranoid to say that after all this time has passed we now want to amalgamate or destroy Sikhs.

Just aint true bro.

You talk utter shit, mate!!!

RSS is a disgrace and a vermont enemy of the SIkhs, there protection would have been only to convert them into there ideologies which are that the Sikhs are a Hindu sect, which I find more insulting then anything else, Sikhs have throughtout have fought for there identity the RSS are just snakes in the grass!!

You have very little knowledge of Sikh history let alone Sikh religion, Punjab\India was not under Hindu rule during Nanak days, Hindus were slaves to the Moguls\Turks\Afghans etc.....so that's just cock and bull again!!!

I was born a Sikh because the people of it's faith fought for there existance, were were never indepted to the hindus, fact the oppposite, the Sikhs actuallly fought for the freedom for all, especially Hindus, the 9th Master Teg Behadur fought for the existance of the Kashmiri HIndu brahmans who were being persucuted and forced into Islam!!!

Paranoi, like I say, it's proven fact, it's in written documents ie Nanapati report, various government reports, UN reports. Politcal parties, the RSS, BJP, Sangh...there mission statements are to make India a hindu only nation.....boy do you know shit all!!!

[sackmycook]

ok mate obviously the bottom line is that Sikhs somehow appeared magically onto this earth from the heavens.

If Guru Nanak was born into a muslim house where would you be today? Probably at Masjid Umar in Evington.

Your statement about my kin and kind have been doing for centuries...is an insult and I take it very offensively, please substantiate The Sikhs have been the forefront of freedom of Punjab, where they are the majority, against invaders, first the moguls, against the brits and have never asked what they are not entitled to, so your talking cock and bull.

who considers you an ethnic minority? a contradiction in terms in your own country. i was talking about the people who have been killing us. is that Sikhs?

You have very little knowledge of Sikh history let alone Sikh religion, Punjab\India was not under Hindu rule during Nanak days, Hindus were slaves to the Moguls\Turks\Afghans etc.....so that's just cock and bull again!!!

Just as the Jews were the subjects of the Romans. Still didnt stop them colluding and having Jesus killed.

[Dr The Singh]

ok mate obviously the bottom line is that Sikhs somehow appeared magically onto this earth from the heavens.

If Guru Nanak was born into a muslim house where would you be today? Probably at Masjid Umar in Evington.

who considers you an ethnic minority? a contradiction in terms in your own country. i was talking about the people who have been killing us. is that Sikhs?

Just as the Jews were the subjects of the Romans. Still didnt stop them colluding and having Jesus killed.

How do you know if guru nanak was born a muslim sikhism wouldn't be born, you a psychic or some sort a demi god, please do substantiate your claims. Kabir was a muslim yet he formed a sufi sect which is very similar to sikhism exact time as Nanak, the SGGS make many references to him!!! And Kabirism still exists!!

Punjab is a state, India is country you fool, punjab was granted as an autonomous state by gandhi\nehru!!!

What have Jews got to do with anything?????? Sikhs never colluded to kill anyone, please substantiate!!!

[Thracian]

It would help if Palestine and some neighbouring nations recognise as a independant state\country!!!!

Israel was bold enough to give the Gaza strip to the Palestinians, this should have been a platform for peace, instead Hamas etc refuses to accept Israel and continues it's terrorist activities. Nations such as Palestine, Lebonon and Syria need to control such groups!!!

Wise words as usual. It is all about the hyprocrisy of religious fanaticism and extremism. If people elsewhere were campaigning to kick Moslems off "Christian" land as determinedly as Moslems are seeking to rid so-called "Arab" land of the Jews then there would be outrage.

What a pity we don't have an annual world League table which shows/measures how hard each country (with its predominant religion) works on tolerating other creeds/nationalities within its own society.

It always seems to me that the Western nations have gone a lot further than countries in the Arab world along those lines and, indeed a lot further than countries like Russia and China in the East.

I wonder if we will ever reach that utopian situation where we have wise national or even, dare I say it, World guidance whereby anyone can live and work anywhere they like and be safe, occupied and respected.

It's a big, big subject, this. But it does need dealing with.

[Rincewind]

I doubt the Utopia will happen. It all comes down to the values we are brought up with and taught. Someone who has been brought up to believe in a certain faith and defends it to the death is not necessary wrong. If they believe what they are doing is right then no amount of talk is going to change their mind. This is one reason why I have no strong religious beliefs. But I was brought up in a family where religion was not a mainstay in our lives. I was not baptised and the reason my mum gave was that she wanted us to make our own mind up as we grew older. I would not be the person I am today if different values were installed in me. My musical taste could be Cliff Richard instead of Black Sabbath. (thank you mum) I do not want to stop people having these beliefs, in fact I admire the ones that are strong but I cannot understand why sometimes. Without being brought up in that enviroment it is hard to understand what actually motivates some people to carry out these acts of violence.

As the saying goes 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.'