Israel

[Dr The Singh]

I will say one thing though, if the tables were turned, and Syria\Palestine\Iran (Hamas, Hizbollah, Jihadis etc)were the super powers, Israel would be wiped off the earth, there would be no ceasefire, no mercy, they would not care for UN or the rest of the world.......these regimes, these people play by there own rules, diplomacy is only used when they are the lesser!!!!!

[Ultra]

Israel seems now at a stage where it recognises the rights and claims of the Palestinian

The everyday conditions in both Gaza and the West Bank completely contradict this statement.

The ease with which Israeli forces routinely murder civilians, some of them very young children, suggests they don't even recognise Palestinians' right to live.

Until Israel proves itself capable of recognising that followers of faiths other than Judaism should have basic human rights, it will not be allowed to live in peace. Nor should it!

[Thracian]

Trouble is that the Muslim extremists have no more respect for other people's human rights nor, indeed, the rights of their own people to practise their religion in their own way, than you claim Israel has.

So, just as in Northern Ireland, sometime there has to be dialogue or the senseless killing and destruction will continue.

It is a pity that moderate Muslims seem to be as ineffective against extremists as any other moderates against any other bullies, manipulators and brainwashers. The problem lies in the passion for a fight - verbal or physical.

Moderates, by their very nature, rarely want to spend their lives telling other people what they should think and how they should behave. Sure they will express a viewpoint. But only rigidly unbending and unseeing fanatics will spend a lifetime blindly crusading for converts and then imposing their will on them.

The problem with that is if the moderates don't stand strong they will soon be trampled over by the extremists or, indeed, anyone who is driven by an ideology.

There's an example of this even in Britain where ordinary home owners barely raised their eyebrows let alone prevented this Government making it lawful for them to take possession of any home you leave unoccupied for six months or more.

If the Government honestly believed this was genuinely beneficial legislation then they wouldn't have brought it in with such stealth and lack of fanfare. One guess who own houses are exempt though.

[breadandcheese]

The everyday conditions in both Gaza and the West Bank completely contradict this statement.

The ease with which Israeli forces routinely murder civilians, some of them very young children, suggests they don't even recognise Palestinians' right to live.

Until Israel proves itself capable of recognising that followers of faiths other than Judaism should have basic human rights, it will not be allowed to live in peace. Nor should it!

This is a very dubious answer. It seems you are trying to completely spin a situation and describe it in outrageous terms to bring up notions of Palestinian genocide and comparisons of Israel as some sort of Jewish Taliban. What a complete disgrace and farce.

Israel, does not behave admirably in Gaza nor the West Bank, but to equate this to refusing to recognise another's right to life is a vitriolistic attack completely unfounded and based on nothing but prejudice. A country that pulls out of Gaza, that votes in a prime minister on the platform that he pull out of large parts of the West Bank. These are not the actions of a country and people hellbent on the annihilation of the Palestinian people.

Israel is a Jewish state, the only one in the world, but to suggest it denies others human rights based on religious dominance is poor. Religion can be practised freely in Israel without fear of persecution. You have clearly never visited Israel and walked around to view this.

Little symbols show this religious freedom. The Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest site is in the control of Jerusalem's mufti to allow Muslim control over Islam's third holiest site. Contrast this with what happened to some of the Jewish sites under control of the Palestinian Authority. These were conveniently destroyed. Jacob's tomb, reduced to rubble.

Your argument is based on complete lies, prejudice and vitriol, without shape for discussion.

[Guest]

Why these people think they can have chunks of planet Earth solely for themselves is archaic. There were no big Moslem communities in England before the back end of the 20th Century but we have had to adjust.

Significant numbers of Lebanoese and Palestinians are actually Christian, not Muslim.

[Head Honcho]

Trouble is that the Muslim extremists have no more respect for other people's human rights nor, indeed, the rights of their own people to practise their religion in their own way, than you claim Israel has.

So, just as in Northern Ireland, sometime there has to be dialogue or the senseless killing and destruction will continue.

It is a pity that moderate Muslims seem to be as ineffective against extremists as any other moderates against any other bullies, manipulators and brainwashers. The problem lies in the passion for a fight - verbal or physical.

Moderates, by their very nature, rarely want to spend their lives telling other people what they should think and how they should behave. Sure they will express a viewpoint. But only rigidly unbending and unseeing fanatics will spend a lifetime blindly crusading for converts and then imposing their will on them.

The problem with that is if the moderates don't stand strong they will soon be trampled over by the extremists or, indeed, anyone who is driven by an ideology.

There's an example of this even in Britain where ordinary home owners barely raised their eyebrows let alone prevented this Government making it lawful for them to take possession of any home you leave unoccupied for six months or more.

If the Government honestly believed this was genuinely beneficial legislation then they wouldn't have brought it in with such stealth and lack of fanfare. One guess who own houses are exempt though.

Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim?

If we in our society can demonise extremists/racists/bigots why can't they? Is it because they don't want to?

[Ultra]

This is a very dubious answer. It seems you are trying to completely spin a situation and describe it in outrageous terms to bring up notions of Palestinian genocide and comparisons of Israel as some sort of Jewish Taliban. What a complete disgrace and farce.

But whether you like it or not, a disturbingly high number of Israelis do consider themselves "the chosen ones", part of a master race. Ironically their attitude towards Arabs closely mirrors Adolf Hitler's attitude towards the Jews!

Israel does not behave admirably in Gaza nor the West Bank

understatement!

but to equate this to refusing to recognise another's right to life is a vitriolistic attack completely unfounded and based on nothing but prejudice.

or maybe the daily experiences of 1 million plus residents, as observed by many distinguished international correspondents, some of whom have been shot and killed by the Israeli occupiers for filming in the wrong place at the wrong time.

A country that pulls out of Gaza, that votes in a prime minister on the platform that he pull out of large parts of the West Bank. These are not the actions of a country and people hellbent on the annihilation of the Palestinian people.

Why make a big deal about pulling out of some occupied territories (which it can re-enter and attack at will anyway) when it should never have invaded and settled in them in the first place?

Israel is a Jewish state, the only one in the world, but to suggest it denies others human rights based on religious dominance is poor.

Except it's a fact. It's virtually impossible for non-Jewish residents to obtain land in many parts of Israel. Yet if I converted to Judaism tomorrow, I could settle there within days.

Little symbols show this religious freedom. The Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest site is in the control of Jerusalem's mufti to allow Muslim control over Islam's third holiest site. Contrast this with what happened to some of the Jewish sites under control of the Palestinian Authority. These were conveniently destroyed. Jacob's tomb, reduced to rubble.

.....just like many Palestinian homes, schools, offices, etc. under Israeli control.

Your outrageously selective use of facts really does your case no favours whatsoever.

Your argument is based on complete lies, prejudice and vitriol, without shape for discussion.

How strange - I could say exactly the same about yours!

[Ultra]

Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim?

Of course there is. Millions live peaceably in Europe and elsewhere within mixed communities. To deny this simple fact is to play a VERY dangerous game indeed..

[Daggers]

Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim?

[Collymore]

http://www.cnn.com/

left video link. Bush and Blair having a little chat!

[Daggers]

If Israel really is

out of order

then why doesn't someone do the decent thing and put up a sign to stop people queuing and getting agitated?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

But whether you like it or not, a disturbingly high number of Israelis do consider themselves "the chosen ones", part of a master race. Ironically their attitude towards Arabs closely mirrors Adolf Hitler's attitude towards the Jews!

Where the bloody hell did you pull that from? You obviously don't know many Israelis - there are quite a few over here and your description of them couldn't be further from the truth.

It's like saying that a 'disturbingly high number' of Westeners consider themselves part of a master race based on the actions of the Ku Klux Klan.

Trouble is that the Muslim extremists have no more respect for other people's human rights nor, indeed, the rights of their own people to practise their religion in their own way, than you claim Israel has.

So, just as in Northern Ireland, sometime there has to be dialogue or the senseless killing and destruction will continue.

It is a pity that moderate Muslims seem to be as ineffective against extremists as any other moderates against any other bullies, manipulators and brainwashers. The problem lies in the passion for a fight - verbal or physical.

A very valid point.

[moseeds]

Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim?

If we in our society can demonise extremists/racists/bigots why can't they? Is it because they don't want to?

I'm Muslim. What do I have to do to become a recognised moderate Muslim? Is there a register I must sign? Do I have to get my soap box out on market square and reveal to the good people of Leicester my moderateness? What is a moderate Muslim?

How does "your" society demonise extremists? Racists? Bigots? By voting them into power (ala BNP)? By hanging NF flags (I have seen too many during the World Cup in Leicester)? By letting them administrate countries (Revd Paisley and friends).

It is easy to say Muslims aren't doing enough. The reality is completely different. The only way you will hear from "moderate" Muslims is in the press. But who wants to read about a peace-loving tree-hugging do-gooding Muslim? To be honest, even I don't. Unfortunately for all of us, there are a few nutters who have gone beyond the folds of their religion and faith to do what they have. It is a disease, a virus. Unfortunately there is no quick cure. We know this because the struggle still continues to eradicate this global problem.

Why the problem exists and how it exists is a different and more lengthy topic.

Regarding Israeli actions. It is quite obvious since the creation of the Israeli state that an Israeli life is worth many many many non-Israeli lives. This latest episode just re-confirms this statement. Israel has consistently agitated neigbouring countries even through peace time (by firing random shells just past its borders into neighbouring countries amongst other punitive action). These are know facts.

The Israeli army has systematically destroyed Palestinian agricultural land and olive groves etc. No companies in their right mind will invest in Palestine for obvious reasons, as well as the fact that Israeli aggression means no supplies are safe, no buildings are safe and of course no people are safe, hence the resulting massive unemployment. The water supply in Israel is ridiculously biased to Israel, so that it is scarce. Palestine is in reality a huge refugee camp, the cities grew out of tents. The resulting powder keg is what we see today. Observed objectively since 1940's, the result we have is what would be expected from such conditions.

Regarding the 1993 Camp David peace offer, please read what was offered. If I was offered that on behalf of my country, I would have to be stupid, braindead or co-erced.

Regarding Hizbullah and Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people because they know Hamas are the only party willing to ensure a fair deal for Palestine in any settlement. Not because they want more people to die needlessly. Please, give Palestinian people a modicum of intelligence.

Hizbullah is an Iranian backed shia organisation based in Lebanon. It is quite obvious whatever their original ideals were, they are now completely lost, fighting for the sake of fighting and further marginalised due to Hamas's election victory.

Regarding the definition of terrorism. The Israeli army has killed more civilians than any terrorists have in Israel. Statistics show the majority of shots were in the upper body area, i.e. shoot to kill. Stats also show the majority of children shot were shot in the upper body area. These statistics are widely available. What the suicide bombers do is neither Islamically allowed nor is it an effective weapon. However the end result is death - be it bomber or army personnel. Just because an Israeli army personnel shoots the bullets or drops the bomb, does not justify the actions nor makes it pseudo-acceptable. Many posts on this thread have done just that. If you are going to condemn then condemn both parties.

Israel, does not behave admirably in Gaza nor the West Bank, but to equate this to refusing to recognise another's right to life is a vitriolistic attack completely unfounded and based on nothing but prejudice. A country that pulls out of Gaza, that votes in a prime minister on the platform that he pull out of large parts of the West Bank. These are not the actions of a country and people hellbent on the annihilation of the Palestinian people.

1. This is a general problem in the media, whereby Israeli actions are toned down. What you mean to say is Israeli actions in Gaza are as bad as Apartheid South Africa. Or am I being prejudiced and unfounded?

2. Building a huge wall, daily stops, not being allowed to go to work, not being allowed to cultivate your land, not being allowed to give brith to your child at hospital, these are all acts which fail to recognise ones right to life. Imagine if you were stopped going to work or to visit your friends or parents. Or more seriously not allowed to receive medical help, searched, stripped etc etc on a daily basis, how long would you stand for it?

3. Yes, they pulled out of a few token settlements, but how many more remain. And more importantly, how many are still being buiilt as we speak!?

I wouldn't go that far, although he's nowhere near as progressive as Yitzak Rahbin was.

I think he should go further, Sharon is a proven murderer. And Thatcher thought Mandela was a terrorist!

Ultra is correct. With current conditions in Palestine, there is no hope of a viable state.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Moseeds,

Your point on moderates vs. extremists is good, however the rest of your argument is one sided and extreme.

It's true that if people are going to label one side 'terrorist,' the same must be true of the other. You say "Israel has consistently agitated neigbouring countries" but exactly the same can be said of Palestine, and Hezbollah who has been shit stirring for too long.

I think the extremists on both sides, Zionists and Hamas alike, should **** off and let those who give a damn about a peaceful outcome run the show. That little bastard who assassinated Rahbin is a perfect example - look what that stunt lead to as well as the death of a great leader.

Ideally I'd like to see Israel concede the extra land they've claimed since 67, but as someone made the point before that would be an unwise move as long as extremists and stirring shit at the border.

With the agitators gone and the borders defined, everyone can have their state and citizens who want nothing more than the bloodshed to stop can have that too.

[macbeth]

Is there such a thing as a moderate Muslim?

If we in our society can demonise extremists/racists/bigots why can't they? Is it because they don't want to?

i think this is a valid enough question............being moderate sometimes means acting against the extremists and denouncing the extreme actions of ther kind; not just sitting there being "moderate"; i'd like to see more moderates roundly condemning the extremists; as yet i haven't seen or heard much of it ...........moderation is only ok in small doses

[Daggers]

i think this is a valid enough question............being moderate sometimes means acting against the extremists and denouncing the extreme actions of ther kind; not just sitting there being "moderate"; i'd like to see more moderates roundly condemning the extremists; as yet i haven't seen or heard much of it ...........moderation is only ok in small doses

I am not quite sure what else can be reasonably expected ~ acts of terrorism and violence have been denounced by Muslim leaders... why is this not enough?

If Anglo-Saxon white people have been unable to rid society of racist attacks, benefit fraudsters, loan sharks, animal liberation nutters, paedophiles and nail bombers [as a brief example] - why is it that people expect the Muslim community to be able to police itself in such a fashion as to stop would be terrorist cells from forming? Did we do a decent job preventing IRA cells? No, is the simple answer. Why should they be able to?

The solution to this is not finger pointing and blame attribution, it lies in finding common ground to build on based on an acceptance that in order to live together in peace we all have to adapt a bit. The lead in this has to come from the politicians because [iMHO] at street level we all kinda get on already.

[macbeth]

I am not quite sure what else can be reasonably expected ~ acts of terrorism and violence have been denounced by Muslim leaders... why is this not enough?

If Anglo-Saxon white people have been unable to rid society of racist attacks, benefit fraudsters, loan sharks, animal liberation nutters, paedophiles and nail bombers [as a brief example] - why is it that people expect the Muslim community to be able to police itself in such a fashion as to stop would be terrorist cells from forming? Did we do a decent job preventing IRA cells? No, is the simple answer. Why should they be able to?

The solution to this is not finger pointing and blame attribution, it lies in finding common ground to build on based on an acceptance that in order to live together in peace we all have to adapt a bit. The lead in this has to come from the politicians because [iMHO] at street level we all kinda get on already.

take your point but when bnp/kkk or any other white nutters are on the march "anglo saxon" types are out there screaming abuse at their fellow types...........its just that i haven't seen many muslims yelling abuse at other muslims who are perceived as extreme .........for instance i didn't see any muslims attacking hamza outside finsbury but i've seen many occasions when the bnp have been attacked by anglo-saxon "moderates"

i'm not saying we are clear of extremism but we are more pro active when confronted by it among our own

[moseeds]

Your point on moderates vs. extremists is good, however the rest of your argument is one sided and extreme.

Yes, the points I put forward can be considered extreme, one-sided, biased etc. This whole debate is subjective to a point. Why do you think so many young Muslims get emotional when talking about this subject?

However, the oppression of Palestine by the state of Israel is not reciprocal.

A recent poll in Palestine showed the majority want peace through a 2-state solution. The Arab countries do not want Hizbullah to exist - this is pretty evident because it is not funded by any Arab countries as far as I know.

This whole episode is quite clearly a show of Israeli military power and determination to do whatever Israel pleases.

[shez]

I blame George Bush for all the problems and his side kick Tony!

[Daggers]

take your point but when bnp/kkk or any other white nutters are on the march "anglo saxon" types are out there screaming abuse at their fellow types...........its just that i haven't seen many muslims yelling abuse at other muslims who are perceived as extreme .........for instance i didn't see any muslims attacking hamza outside finsbury but i've seen many occasions when the bnp have been attacked by anglo-saxon "moderates"

i'm not saying we are clear of extremism but we are more pro active when confronted by it among our own

When the BNP/NF march through a town centre, people of all colours come together to denounce them as ignorant bigots. But what good does the shouting do? There are still bigots, in fact ~ some of them have openly admited to voting BNP on this forum!

There may well be representations of Muslim elders to extremist clerics, I don't know. My point being is that for us to know this would mean the media were involved - and the point of such a meeting would not be to gain media coverage. Consequently, not being covered is beneficial to all parties.

When Hamza was found guilty what would have been served by a crowd of angry Muslims shouting for his conviction outside? Surely, those that do the shouting tend to be the more radicalised members of a group - and not the vast majority of right thinking people.

In order for Hitler to suceed a set of circumstances had to be in place in addition the the hate he spouted - in order for Muslim extremist cells to form external stimuli have to be in effect. In order to solve the problem we have to look at the full set of circumstances that led to events such as the London bombing. As soon as someone mentions words such as these they are denegrated for being unpatriotic or a terrorist sympathiser - but, as black and white as it can be, until we stop fukcing about in the Middle East and failing to condem Israel events such as 7/7 will continue.

I don't want Elders to publically slate extremists - I want us to all work together to understand our differences and agree to move forward.

[Thracian]

The very fact that the peace-seeking views of the majority of Palestinians are being ignored speaks volumes about the Muslim manipulators on the outside who are so clearly only interested in their own agenda.

I always believed the West should have refrained from warfare and shamed those fanatics through the media by continually showing them up for exactly what they are.

The negative effect of the outside agitators on what is a predominantly young and idealogically susceptible Muslim "tribe" worldwide is unforgivable in my view (akin to the brainwashing of the Hitler youth) and will never be defensible should the God in whose name the actions are supposedly taken finally calls the perpetrators to account.

How would you feel (perhaps I should ask how do you feel) about your children's vulnerable minds being continually got at, if you have children, because I would be livid.

Israel is by no means beyond serious criticism but when the Iranian leader declares that they should be wiped off the face of the earth you might well understand that the Israelis will have their fingers permanently on the trigger. How would you feel if someone declared that your country or your family should be obliterated?.

For a national leader to voice such hateful vitriol is beyond contempt whatever his beliefs.

Just as in Northern Ireland there are two sides to the Israeli-Arab conflict, two sides with any number of opportunist offshoots, and it is time people on both sides started to imagine for a while that they were in the oppposite camp because then they might better understand the overall problems and be more able to agree a solution, if, of course, either side really wants one.

[Daggers]

Just as in Northern Ireland there are two sides to the Israeli-Arab conflict, two sides with any number of opportunist offshoots, and it is time people on both sides started to imagine for a while that they were in the oppposite camp because then they might better understand the overall problems and be more able to agree a solution, if, of course, either side really wants one.

And just like NI, it needs a collective will to find peace and a personality large enough to shoe-horn it through. I can't see either existing at the moment.

[Head Honcho]

I'm Muslim. What do I have to do to become a recognised moderate Muslim? Is there a register I must sign? Do I have to get my soap box out on market square and reveal to the good people of Leicester my moderateness? What is a moderate Muslim?

How does "your" society demonise extremists? Racists? Bigots? By voting them into power (ala BNP)? By hanging NF flags (I have seen too many during the World Cup in Leicester)? By letting them administrate countries (Revd Paisley and friends).

It is easy to say Muslims aren't doing enough. The reality is completely different. The only way you will hear from "moderate" Muslims is in the press. But who wants to read about a peace-loving tree-hugging do-gooding Muslim? To be honest, even I don't. Unfortunately for all of us, there are a few nutters who have gone beyond the folds of their religion and faith to do what they have. It is a disease, a virus. Unfortunately there is no quick cure. We know this because the struggle still continues to eradicate this global problem.

Why the problem exists and how it exists is a different and more lengthy topic.

Regarding Israeli actions. It is quite obvious since the creation of the Israeli state that an Israeli life is worth many many many non-Israeli lives. This latest episode just re-confirms this statement. Israel has consistently agitated neigbouring countries even through peace time (by firing random shells just past its borders into neighbouring countries amongst other punitive action). These are know facts.

The Israeli army has systematically destroyed Palestinian agricultural land and olive groves etc. No companies in their right mind will invest in Palestine for obvious reasons, as well as the fact that Israeli aggression means no supplies are safe, no buildings are safe and of course no people are safe, hence the resulting massive unemployment. The water supply in Israel is ridiculously biased to Israel, so that it is scarce. Palestine is in reality a huge refugee camp, the cities grew out of tents. The resulting powder keg is what we see today. Observed objectively since 1940's, the result we have is what would be expected from such conditions.

Regarding the 1993 Camp David peace offer, please read what was offered. If I was offered that on behalf of my country, I would have to be stupid, braindead or co-erced.

Regarding Hizbullah and Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people because they know Hamas are the only party willing to ensure a fair deal for Palestine in any settlement. Not because they want more people to die needlessly. Please, give Palestinian people a modicum of intelligence.

Hizbullah is an Iranian backed shia organisation based in Lebanon. It is quite obvious whatever their original ideals were, they are now completely lost, fighting for the sake of fighting and further marginalised due to Hamas's election victory.

Regarding the definition of terrorism. The Israeli army has killed more civilians than any terrorists have in Israel. Statistics show the majority of shots were in the upper body area, i.e. shoot to kill. Stats also show the majority of children shot were shot in the upper body area. These statistics are widely available. What the suicide bombers do is neither Islamically allowed nor is it an effective weapon. However the end result is death - be it bomber or army personnel. Just because an Israeli army personnel shoots the bullets or drops the bomb, does not justify the actions nor makes it pseudo-acceptable. Many posts on this thread have done just that. If you are going to condemn then condemn both parties.

1. This is a general problem in the media, whereby Israeli actions are toned down. What you mean to say is Israeli actions in Gaza are as bad as Apartheid South Africa. Or am I being prejudiced and unfounded?

2. Building a huge wall, daily stops, not being allowed to go to work, not being allowed to cultivate your land, not being allowed to give brith to your child at hospital, these are all acts which fail to recognise ones right to life. Imagine if you were stopped going to work or to visit your friends or parents. Or more seriously not allowed to receive medical help, searched, stripped etc etc on a daily basis, how long would you stand for it?

3. Yes, they pulled out of a few token settlements, but how many more remain. And more importantly, how many are still being buiilt as we speak!?

I think he should go further, Sharon is a proven murderer. And Thatcher thought Mandela was a terrorist!

Ultra is correct. With current conditions in Palestine, there is no hope of a viable state.

Muslims clearly aren't doing enough, when I first hear that a mosque was instrumental in the capture of extremists I may start to believe you!

One way or another terrorist organisations are funded by moderates like yourself worldwide.

Do you know what happens to your zakat? I doubt it!

[Ultra]

I'm Muslim. What do I have to do to become a recognised moderate Muslim? Is there a register I must sign? Do I have to get my soap box out on market square and reveal to the good people of Leicester my moderateness? What is a moderate Muslim?

How does "your" society demonise extremists? Racists? Bigots? By voting them into power (ala BNP)? By hanging NF flags (I have seen too many during the World Cup in Leicester)? By letting them administrate countries (Revd Paisley and friends).

It is easy to say Muslims aren't doing enough. The reality is completely different. The only way you will hear from "moderate" Muslims is in the press. But who wants to read about a peace-loving tree-hugging do-gooding Muslim? To be honest, even I don't. Unfortunately for all of us, there are a few nutters who have gone beyond the folds of their religion and faith to do what they have. It is a disease, a virus. Unfortunately there is no quick cure. We know this because the struggle still continues to eradicate this global problem.

Why the problem exists and how it exists is a different and more lengthy topic.

Regarding Israeli actions. It is quite obvious since the creation of the Israeli state that an Israeli life is worth many many many non-Israeli lives. This latest episode just re-confirms this statement. Israel has consistently agitated neigbouring countries even through peace time (by firing random shells just past its borders into neighbouring countries amongst other punitive action). These are know facts.

The Israeli army has systematically destroyed Palestinian agricultural land and olive groves etc. No companies in their right mind will invest in Palestine for obvious reasons, as well as the fact that Israeli aggression means no supplies are safe, no buildings are safe and of course no people are safe, hence the resulting massive unemployment. The water supply in Israel is ridiculously biased to Israel, so that it is scarce. Palestine is in reality a huge refugee camp, the cities grew out of tents. The resulting powder keg is what we see today. Observed objectively since 1940's, the result we have is what would be expected from such conditions.

Regarding the 1993 Camp David peace offer, please read what was offered. If I was offered that on behalf of my country, I would have to be stupid, braindead or co-erced.

Regarding Hizbullah and Hamas. Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinian people because they know Hamas are the only party willing to ensure a fair deal for Palestine in any settlement. Not because they want more people to die needlessly. Please, give Palestinian people a modicum of intelligence.

Hizbullah is an Iranian backed shia organisation based in Lebanon. It is quite obvious whatever their original ideals were, they are now completely lost, fighting for the sake of fighting and further marginalised due to Hamas's election victory.

Regarding the definition of terrorism. The Israeli army has killed more civilians than any terrorists have in Israel. Statistics show the majority of shots were in the upper body area, i.e. shoot to kill. Stats also show the majority of children shot were shot in the upper body area. These statistics are widely available. What the suicide bombers do is neither Islamically allowed nor is it an effective weapon. However the end result is death - be it bomber or army personnel. Just because an Israeli army personnel shoots the bullets or drops the bomb, does not justify the actions nor makes it pseudo-acceptable. Many posts on this thread have done just that. If you are going to condemn then condemn both parties.

1. This is a general problem in the media, whereby Israeli actions are toned down. What you mean to say is Israeli actions in Gaza are as bad as Apartheid South Africa. Or am I being prejudiced and unfounded?

2. Building a huge wall, daily stops, not being allowed to go to work, not being allowed to cultivate your land, not being allowed to give brith to your child at hospital, these are all acts which fail to recognise ones right to life. Imagine if you were stopped going to work or to visit your friends or parents. Or more seriously not allowed to receive medical help, searched, stripped etc etc on a daily basis, how long would you stand for it?

3. Yes, they pulled out of a few token settlements, but how many more remain. And more importantly, how many are still being buiilt as we speak!?

I think he should go further, Sharon is a proven murderer. And Thatcher thought Mandela was a terrorist!

Ultra is correct. With current conditions in Palestine, there is no hope of a viable state.

Well said.

The best contribution to this thread so far (including the ones made previously by me...)

[Head Honcho]

Well said.

The best contribution to this thread so far (including the ones made previously by me...)