Israel

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Good point Mr Singh. But your comments are suggesting this is NOT happening/happened. Hardline groups have been barred from masjids up and down the country for years - even before 9/11. However like I have said, there is nothing stopping disgruntled groups from forming their own little fan clubs - which is exaclty what has happened. So in effect, barring these groups has had the undesired effect of pushing them underground. The problem is these little extreme groups are increasing. Why they are increasing is another topic in itself.

Good point. Hence the issue needs not only political attention but also much work on the ground to realise the wishes of moderate civilians.

As an analogy, if the IRA bombed somewhere in UK again today, then would the UK go and kill hundreds of people in Dublin and knock out their infrastructure, and then blame the whole thing on the American-Irish? This is exactly what is happening right now in Lebanon in my opinion.

The Brits wouldn't hesitate trying to root out those responsible though - it never stopped them in the seventies and as we saw on Bloody Sunday, innocent civilans were killed due to a country's security-fuelled paranoia. We saw it again recently when Jean Charles de Menezes was shot by paranoid security forces.

I draw the line between paranoid and trigger happy - Bloody Sunday was in no way defensible (it was a civil rights march for ****s sake) though Menezes' death though tragic and perhaps avoidable was not exactly in cold blood.

The question is how one views Israel. I tend to lean more on the side of preemptive defence.

As for 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist,' I think that's bollocks. Attacking military and governmental establishments is 'freedom fighting.' Murdering civilians is 'terrorism.' By this defence both state militaries and geurilla groups are 'terrorists' so it's futile even using the term.

[breadandcheese]

As an analogy, if the IRA bombed somewhere in UK again today, then would the UK go and kill hundreds of people in Dublin and knock out their infrastructure, and then blame the whole thing on the American-Irish? This is exactly what is happening right now in Lebanon in my opinion.

This analogy would only hold true should the IRA possess rockets and be firing hundreds of them into towns in the UK, whilst the Irish state did nothing to stop them or reign them in.

The fact is, Hezbollah have no legitimacy for their action. Lebanon is a seperate issue to the Palestinian people and so cannot be linked in. Where I think people take issue with elements of the Muslim community is when they condemn Israel for civilian deaths (rightly), which Israel says is accidental (collateral damage I believe the term is), yet do not condemn Hezbollah for their actions of deliberately targetting civilians in Israeli towns with their rockets.

I do believe though that this is in reality a proxy war between Iran and America, fought out between Hezbollah and Israel.

Hezbollah is funded and trained by Iran. I find it hard to believe that they would carry out as large a military operation as they did without having at least tacit support. I still find it extremely coincidental, that Hezbollah should strike Israel on the same day that Iran was supposed to have responded to the international community's nuclear enrichment proposals. I am sure that without the crisis in Lebanon, the G8 would have been discussing Iran's nuclear ambitions.

By the same token, America and the West's reluctance to apply pressure on Israel to stop can also be attributed to the motivation to blunt and bloody Iranian influence throughout the Middle East.

To further back up these thoughts is the response of the large Sunni Muslim nations (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt) who are worried at the creeping power and influence in the Middle East of non-Arab Shia Muslim Iran.

This is my take on the current situation.

[Ultra]

Nobody mentioned anything about open fundraising events it wasn't as organised as that, in fact most of the time it involved a bucket being passed around as the Irish national anthem was being played at the end of the night-believe me it happened every night at the Irish Club opposite the bus station, to be honest I don't even know if it's still there!

I used to drink at the Irish Club, which has now moved to Northfields of all places, and cannot imagine how it could or would have been used for collections on behalf of the provos. Indeed most if not all of the committee there were vehemently ANTI-provo!

By the way the site of the former Irish club is now a lapdancing venue!

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

The fact is, Hezbollah have no legitimacy for their action. Lebanon is a seperate issue to the Palestinian people and so cannot be linked in.

True, that.

[Dr The Singh]

Good point Mr Singh. But your comments are suggesting this is NOT happening/happened. Hardline groups have been barred from masjids up and down the country for years - even before 9/11. However like I have said, there is nothing stopping disgruntled groups from forming their own little fan clubs - which is exaclty what has happened. So in effect, barring these groups has had the undesired effect of pushing them underground. The problem is these little extreme groups are increasing. Why they are increasing is another topic in itself.

The issue with the Sikh homeland is not comparable to Palestine - before or after Indira Ghandis massacres - for a variety of reasons.

I think this comment shows how one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The Israeli army can be considered even worse than a brutal occupying army. Just watch the news on a regular basis to see what I mean.

As a side note, if I were to make a comment along those lines for Hamas or Hizbullah or Fatah or whichever group out there I would be arrested within minutes under the new laws.

There is no central body to collect alms and thereafter promote Islam worldwide. Muslims fight so much amonsgt themselves that the issue of which particular brand Islam was being promoted would never be resolved!

Someone said the situation in South Africa was evntually resolved. But that was because the International community, notably the Western powers were idealogically against the regime through sanctions and boycotts. In the case of Palestine and Israel the Western powers are backing Israeli actions. UN resolutions against Israel are on paper only. Israeli aggression is ignored. Demolishing thousands of homes is ignored. Killing civilians is ignored and in many cases justified and legitimised. Even today, in Prime Ministers Question Time, Menzies Campbell asked the PM why Israel was using indefensibly inappropriate force against Lebanese civilians and civilian infrastructure, to which the PM merely brushed aside as something normal and then proceeded to blame Syria and Iran - even though Syria has lost any significant influence in Lebanon and Iran has publicly decried Hizbullah actions. This is the problem the Palestinians have been facing since the creation of Israel.

As an analogy, if the IRA bombed somewhere in UK again today, then would the UK go and kill hundreds of people in Dublin and knock out their infrastructure, and then blame the whole thing on the American-Irish? This is exactly what is happening right now in Lebanon in my opinion.

In this latest conflict, why are Lebanese civilians being killed? No one can seem to answer this question because the action by the Israelis is evidently wrong. The whole topic goes backwards and blames the Palestinians instead. I find even in the press this is what happens, which only serves to cloud the real issue of Israeli aggression and apartheid.

I understand what your trying to say, but in relation to the issue in this country, the muslims in this country are British, not Palestinian, why kill your fellow countrymen, the average Brit has done nothing....where does these people loyalties lie.......all this notion that muslims in the UK that terrorist Uk based have no option is bull and are justified is bull.

In relation to Sikh issue (even today Sikhs are being persecuted) is that my ancestors are Sikhs and in theory should harbour great hatred more so then any muslim that's not palestinian and even though i will not forget I do not harbour hatred for hindu's,. Even during the 1984 massacre no hindu was killed or attacked by the Sikhs in the punjab, they did not stoop to the levels of killing innocents, that is nobility and human nature of true men and not the evil of devils!!!

The honest truth is that there are those muslims that don't want peace (ie hardliners), and as stated before there agenda is bigger then Israel, there Jihad is first to destroy Israel. Israel has nothing really to gain by war other then proving it's superiority and acting on the US's behalf. Until those hardliners are kerbed peace will never reign. It's true Israel does have to give something in return and is not totally innocent but the basis for peace can only begin when the intention or intent to attack is no longer!!!!

Your anology on the one that if IRA attacked britain, would britain attack Irish in US is abit far fetched. Lebonon 'houses' hizbollah in the south, hence Israel has bombed the south (Hizbollah). There are muslims giving donations to jihadis all over the world UK, Iran, Saudi, etc Israel hasn't bombed any of them. Instead of just blaming Israel, don't you think it's the duty of all the condemn Hizbollah aswell????

I believe if the palestinians really want peace etc, first they will have to kerb Hamas and Palestinians gain nothing by violent cunduct, instead it always overshadows there plight!!! Israel will automatically have to come to the drawing table and there oppressive actions will be highlighted in favour of the palestinians!!

[Head Honcho]

I used to drink at the Irish Club, which has now moved to Northfields of all places, and cannot imagine how it could or would have been used for collections on behalf of the provos. Indeed most if not all of the committee there were vehemently ANTI-provo!

By the way the site of the former Irish club is now a lapdancing venue!

Don't know when you used to go but I'm talking late 70's now and I can assure you it was a common occurence.

I also witnessed it in Larne and Glasgow.

[Dr The Singh]

Don't know when you used to go but I'm talking late 70's now and I can assure you it was a common occurence.

I also witnessed it in Larne and Glasgow.

I remember a pub in derby city centre that did the same!!!!!

[Ultra]

Don't know when you used to go but I'm talking late 70's now and I can assure you it was a common occurence.

I also witnessed it in Larne and Glasgow.

I have checked the rumour out with a very reliable source, well known to me for his republican sympathies.

Much though he may have wished otherwise, he assures me there is absolutely NO truth in the story.

If there was, do you think the NF would have left the place standing?

[macbeth]

i heard similar rumours back in the 60/70s but i don't know for sure if they were true; but i would not be suprised if there was an element of truth

my dad was irish and used st pats club alot ; going back to when it used to be in that "churchy" looking building behind it (later midland dynamo ; dont know what it is now)

i dont think he was involved in any of these activities but occasionally i was suspicious; as he seemed to retain a deep seated but not overt dislike of the english.........it surfaced at international football matches etc as he would always seemingly wanting the opposition to win

[Head Honcho]

I have checked the rumour out with a very reliable source, well known to me for his republican sympathies.

Much though he may have wished otherwise, he assures me there is absolutely NO truth in the story.

If there was, do you think the NF would have left the place standing?

If this was just a rumour then maybe I'd be able to believe your source, but I 've witnessed this with my own eye's so we'll have to agree to disagree

[moseeds]

.. muslims in this country are British, not Palestinian, why kill your fellow countrymen, the average Brit has done nothing....where does these people loyalties lie.......

British Muslims are not Palestinian Muslims but as Muslims we are one and the same. Rather like the special relationship felt by Americans and British people, but moreso. Yes you are right, killing civilians for whatever reason is despicable. Morally it is wrong, religiously it is wrong.

Your anology on the one that if IRA attacked britain, would britain attack Irish in US is abit far fetched. Lebonon 'houses' hizbollah in the south, hence Israel has bombed the south (Hizbollah). There are muslims giving donations to jihadis all over the world UK, Iran, Saudi, etc Israel hasn't bombed any of them. Instead of just blaming Israel, don't you think it's the duty of all the condemn Hizbollah aswell????

Again, this isssue of "Shout out about your moderateness" has come to the fore. I personally haven't backed Hizbullah, I think they deserve to killed as murderers. My debate on this board has revolved around excessive Israeli force and the intentional killings of Lebanese civilians, and going back to last week or 2 weeks ago those killed in Gaza (Jenin and *I think* Nablus?).

Even during the 1984 massacre no hindu was killed or attacked by the Sikhs in the punjab, they did not stoop to the levels of killing innocents, that is nobility and human nature of true men and not the evil of devils!!!

The Israelis have stooped to the levels of killing innocents, therefore they are committing the "Evil of Devils". This injustice is something I hope people are realising.

This analogy would only hold true should the IRA possess rockets and be firing hundreds of them into towns in the UK, whilst the Irish state did nothing to stop them or reign them in.

Does it matter if rockets are fired into a town or a bomber destroys a building with people in it? When the IRA was campaigning across the UK how much did Ireland try and stop them? Lebanon has been in constant war for the latter part of the 20th century. They only recently rebuilt their bridges etc let alone go terrorist hunting.

Lebanon is a seperate issue to the Palestinian people and so cannot be linked in

When Israel was created millions of Palestinians fled to Lebanese refugee camps which still exist, so it is not a separate issue. Just because a large body of people were displaced from one place does not make them a separate issue. You have to remember there are still many people alive who remember fleeing their livelihoods still living in refugee camps.

I do believe though that this is in reality a proxy war between Iran and America, fought out between Hezbollah and Israel.

I agree with that completely. The opening paragraph of todays Guardian reads:

The US is giving Israel a window of a week to inflict maximum damage on Hizbullah before weighing in behind international calls for a ceasefire in Lebanon, according to British, European and Israeli sources...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1823817,00.html

If that's not permission to kill and destroy as much as you can then I don't know what is. This latest piece of news backs up my argument that at present Western Powers are legitimising Israeli aggression.

As for 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist,' I think that's bollocks. Attacking military and governmental establishments is 'freedom fighting.' Murdering civilians is 'terrorism.' By this defence both state militaries and geurilla groups are 'terrorists' so it's futile even using the term.

Of course attacking civilians as legitimate targets is terrorism.

It is not futile using the term. As pointed out by yourself and the singh, what the Israelis are doing in Lebanon is terrorism. People fight for a cause. If the cause is just and the actions are justified (i.e. attacking millitary and government installations) then they are legitimately freedom fighters. The reason why I maintain that the Israeli aggression in Lebanon is unjustified is that initially it was Israeli millitary personel who were attacked. This does not mean Hizbullah was in anyway right - their cause is misguided and wrong in my opinion - but the resulting firepower from Israel is unwarranted and terrorism against civilians.

[Head Honcho]

Civilians are and always will be casualties of war.

Israel is wrong to target civilians but in they're eye the end justifies the means, even if in the end, nothing is achieved!

[The People's Hero]

People are so keen to label atrocities now. Arguing about what is or is not terrorism. It's a word. Does it matter? What's going on in that part of the world is ridiculous. You can moralise, theorise and analyse it all until you're blue in the face, it won't change anything.

The problems are deep rooted.. woven in to the very fabric of the way people live, the way they are brought up, woven even in to the land they live upon or hope to live on. It can't all be sorted out without someone being forgotten and never getting what they want. There is no acceptable compromise.

Atrocities will continue, one day things will really boil over, other states may be drawn in and the propaganda of the victors will be remembered as 'historical fact'.

[Ultra]

The fact, we're involved in this whether we like it or not.

1) As taxpayers, we're picking up the tab for the evacuation of our citizens from Lebanon, thus stretching the defence budget still further.

2) Our government, in supporting the illegitimate acts of the Israeli forces, is guilty of the worst appeasement since Munich 1938.

Did the blitz of our cities by Hitler lead to greater sympathy for his views? Did it hell. It made us want to repay the Germans with us interest, which we later did, wreaking terrible revenge on Dresden, Berlin and other towns.

In similar fashion, Israel and its US sugar-daddy may one day reap the whirlwind their present activities are sowing.

When that happens we will know Armageddon has arrived.

[Daggers]

By the way the site of the former Irish club is now a lapdancing venue!

Maybe opening lots of lap dancing clubs in the Middle East would solve some problems?

[Head Honcho]

The fact, we're involved in this whether we like it or not.

1) As taxpayers, we're picking up the tab for the evacuation of our citizens from Lebanon, thus stretching the defence budget still further.

2) Our government, in supporting the illegitimate acts of the Israeli forces, is guilty of the worst appeasement since Munich 1938.

Did the blitz of our cities by Hitler lead to greater sympathy for his views? Did it hell. It made us want to repay the Germans with us interest, which we later did, wreaking terrible revenge on Dresden, Berlin and other towns.

In similar fashion, Israel and its US sugar-daddy may one day reap the whirlwind their present activities are sowing.

When that happens we will know Armageddon has arrived.

The ships are in the area anyway and train for these instances everyday and so doing it for real isn't going to break the bank!

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

what the Israelis are doing in Lebanon is terrorism

How? By attacking a geurilla agressor who started the crap in the first place?

[Your Mom]

Who gives a shit?

Most of it is their

own fault, so to be

honest, I don't want

to hear about it.

[Daggers]

Who gives a shit?

Most of it is their

own fault, so to be

honest, I don't want

to hear about it.

Don't worry your precious little head about it then ~ we all realise that you have the cognitive skills of a Big Brother contestant. Twta.

[Your Mom]

Hahaha, I have got

another 'member'

(in all senses) riled

up. Doesn't it make you

cringe to see it, folks?

When the big man only

posts responses to all of

my posts about him

having bigger bollocks

than my good self!

[moseeds]

Civilians are and always will be casualties of war.

Israel is wrong to target civilians but in they're eye the end justifies the means, even if in the end, nothing is achieved!

By your reasoning Allen, the IRA was therefore justified in its bombing campaign. As far as they were concerned the the "ends" was re-unification, even though nothing was achieved.

[moseeds]

How? By attacking a geurilla agressor who started the crap in the first place?

How? By using the reasoning of The Singh and DanTheFox. The Guerilla aggressor is not Lebanese Civilians. What we are seeing in Lebanon is the killing of Lebanese Civilians.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

How? By using the reasoning of The Singh and DanTheFox. The Guerilla aggressor is not Lebanese Civilians. What we are seeing in Lebanon is the killing of Lebanese Civilians.

There is a difference between killing in cold blood and casualties of war.

Civilians are not the target. If they were, I wouldn't be supporting Israel's right to not have to put up with geurilla aggressors. And these aggressors don't even have a legitimate purpose or role, such as Hamas operations in Gaza and only Gaza, beyond wanting to exterminate Israel, which is a tad excessive don't you think?

[Dr The Singh]

At this moment and time i'm disgusted by the west etc allowing Israel 2 weeks to bombard Lebanon....the question must be asked, are Israel really destroying Hizbolah or Lebenon, whatever the answer...the civilians are suffering.

I'm also disgusted by some arab nations, the 'special relationship' that moseed mentions, does not comprehend common sense and instead of condemning Hamas, and Hizbolah, without analysing the situation are rapid in the condemnation of Israel. They should sort there own backyards ie look at there actions first, actions that cause civil unrest in the world before trying to piont a finger at Israel. We all know this is not possible, most of the Arab world are run by bigots!!! One must question, in relation to Israel does the middle east want peace, the answer I give is no, hence they must take a large chunk of blame for the current situation. Any nation ruled by religion will always see people outside that religion with fear and hostility!!

[Thracian]

I think a lot of these people want to feel hatred - or are being blatantly influenced to feel hatred because it satisfies the overall purpose of the fanatics in wishing to Moslemise the world.

If it wasn't for the continual propaganda of hatred that the Arab media and manipulators appear to peddle with relish then some thinking Moslems would be trying to look at circumstances from the opposite perspective as well as their own and trying to find solutions rather than trying to justify continued hatred with its accompanying slaughter. As we had to in Northern Ireland.

Bottom line is that warfare is nothing less than disgusting and warfare in the name of God is an insult to the very concept of such beliefs - as I have said many times in relation to that hypocrite Blair.

Human beings were born with brains to sort differences out. The problem is that too many brains are no longer controlled by their owners, they are being systematically manipulated and that is probably the greatest sin of all.

Rape of the body is widely condemned but people are so unconcerned about rape of the mind and, with it, contamination of the soul.

Those responsible cannot truly believe in any God. They only act in the name of God because religious people are vulnerable to exploitation.

It happened in the Western world, especially at the time of the Inquisition, but if such apologists for right thinking honestly believed their own words they would live in deepest fear for their eternal futures.

Come the judgement day so often mentioned in their pathetic rantings, they will surely face everlasting condemnation but that does not temper them on earth because their beliefs are nothing but surface beliefs, rhetoric for effect.

They are terrorists and manipulators by choice and inclination and were they not religious terrorists they would be idealistic or criminal terrorists of some other sort. They want to exert power, they want to control people and they want to be cruel.

The extent of their success is confirmed by the many, supposedly brave, people who would strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves into eternity for a perceived cause but are not brave enough to say no - I want my brain for myself and I love my God far more deeply than to ever to have his name associated with any sort of evil.