Israel

[Ultra]

Muslims clearly aren't doing enough, when I first hear that a mosque was instrumental in the capture of extremists I may start to believe you!

One way or another terrorist organisations are funded by moderates like yourself worldwide.

Do you know what happens to your zakat? I doubt it!

And do YOU know what happens to your taxes?

The reason governments literally get away with murder is because too many braindead muppets neither know nor care what is done in their name.

Maybe we in the West should start putting our own houses in order before pointing fingers at anyone else.

[Ultra]

[Head Honcho]

And do YOU know what happens to your taxes?

The reason governments literally get away with murder is because too many braindead muppets neither know nor care what is done in their name.

Maybe we in the West should start putting our own houses in order before pointing fingers at anyone else.

In general yes I do know what happens to my taxes, I may not be happy how they are spent but I have to pay my taxes Muslims are only obligated to pay a zakat.

1/40th of their wealth every year goes towards funding Islam worldwide.

The zakat is distributed in eight different ways one of which includes it going to Jihad, which of course many Muslims would say is education but in reality much of it is funding terrorism!

I don't pretend to be an expert this is just something I was told by a let's say non christian friend of mine a while ago and he was under no illusions as to where some of his zakat went.

[moseeds]

In general yes I do know what happens to my taxes, I may not be happy how they are spent but I have to pay my taxes Muslims are only obligated to pay a zakat.

1/40th of their wealth every year goes towards funding Islam worldwide.

The zakat is distributed in eight different ways one of which includes it going to Jihad, which of course many Muslims would say is education but in reality much of it is funding terrorism!

I don't pretend to be an expert this is just something I was told by a let's say non christian friend of mine a while ago and he was under no illusions as to where some of his zakat went.

Allen, Muslims are required to pay "Zakah" (Alms) at a rate of 2% of all profitable wealth over a pre-set threshold once a year. Zakah is required from the rich to help the poor. This is a requirement of faith and is separate to normal donations to charity which have no such stipulations.

I do not have any knowledge of Zakah being distributed in 8 different ways.

Muslims also pay taxes, also donate to charity ("Sadaqah") to the poor and various causes and pay their yearly alms ("Zakah") to those in need.

If that individual donated money to questionable recipients then that his his burden, and not something to tarnish an entire community with.

[macbeth]

Muslims clearly aren't doing enough, when I first hear that a mosque was instrumental in the capture of extremists I may start to believe you!

One way or another terrorist organisations are funded by moderates like yourself worldwide.

Do you know what happens to your zakat? I doubt it!

got to say i agree with your views.......to keep saying that there is only a small percentage of muslims causing terror is akin to saying the same about hooliganism or racism within fooball.........its the moderates who must make the stand to kick it out ........claiming to be part of a moderate majority that does nothing looks like dumb compliance

[moseeds]

Muslims clearly aren't doing enough, when I first hear that a mosque was instrumental in the capture of extremists I may start to believe you!

One way or another terrorist organisations are funded by moderates like yourself worldwide.

Do you know what happens to your zakat? I doubt it!

A mosque is not a collective body of people. A mosque is a building, in which people can pray. A mosque usually has several imams. Mosques in Leicester holds approximately 200-few thousand people when filled, usually on a Friday. Therefore the only people associated with a mosque are the imams and those running it. They have no knowledge of who is coming in or out of the building. The extremist Muslims you point towards are extremist because the answers they are looking for are not found in mainstream mosques you find in the majority of places. So instead they do not attend those mosques but form groups elsewhere. A very good example of this is the lad from Leeds who was one of the bombers in London. They rented a disused office space to form their own congregation and their own ideas.

There is a lot being done to bring teenage boys away from extremism and back into the mainstream. I agree for too long the Muslim community in Britain had stuck its collective head in the sand, but as far as possible a proactive effort is being made.

One way or another your taxes are being used to oppress people in Africa, kill innocent men, women and children in Afghanistan and Iraq, ensure countries remain in debt forever, kill thousands of children in Iraq through sanctions, detain people indefinitely without evidence, subsidise rich utilities companies etc etc. I can say with 100% certainty I know exactly where my money is going when I donate to charity. Can you say the same about your taxes?

Today's Independent Newspaper has an excellent feature on "British Jews" and their views on the state of Israel. Very interesting to read.

[Head Honcho]

Allen, Muslims are required to pay "Zakah" (Alms) at a rate of 2% of all profitable wealth over a pre-set threshold once a year. Zakah is required from the rich to help the poor. This is a requirement of faith and is separate to normal donations to charity which have no such stipulations.

I do not have any knowledge of Zakah being distributed in 8 different ways.

Muslims also pay taxes, also donate to charity ("Sadaqah") to the poor and various causes and pay their yearly alms ("Zakah") to those in need.

If that individual donated money to questionable recipients then that his his burden, and not something to tarnish an entire community with.

We were quite happy to tarnish the entire Irish/American and Anglo/Irish community for funding the IRA so why not the Muslim community?

During the 80's the government carried out major ops to stop funds reaching the paramilitaries and these type of ops went a long way to getting them to the negotiation table and until the muslim terrorists are starved of funds they will continue their jihad without any thought to negotiation!

[macbeth]

Sunday August 14, 2005

The Observer

The Muslim Council of Britain is officially the moderate face of Islam. Its pronouncements condemning the London bombings have been welcomed by the government as a model response for mainstream Muslims. The MCB's secretary general, Iqbal Sacranie, has recently been knighted and senior figures within the organisation have the ear of ministers.

But an Observer investigation can reveal that, far from being moderate, the Muslim Council of Britain has its origins in the extreme orthodox politics in Pakistan. And as its influence increases through Whitehall, many within the Muslim community are growing concerned that this self-appointed organisation is crowding out other, genuinely moderate, voices of Muslim Britain.

Far from representing the more progressive or spiritual traditions within Islam, the leadership of the Muslim Council of Britain and some of its affiliates sympathise with and have links to conservative Islamist movements in the Muslim world and in particular Pakistan's Jamaat-i-Islami, a radical party committed to the establishment of an Islamic state in Pakistan ruled by sharia law.

[moseeds]

Macbeth - If there was a Christian Council of Britain, its members would range from Hardcore "bible-bashing" evangelicals like those found in America, Catholics, Protestants and Christians who are christian in spirit. So the MCB is a broad church so to speak. What the article means by genuinely moderate is those that don't think we should wear scarves, hats, veils whatever else etc in not so many words. Nobody in the MCB supports or condones terrorism/suicide bombing - its contradictory to Islamic Law, so how can they?

Allen - The Government and the Police played a huge part in eradicating hooliganism in football. If it were left to fans alone I dare say we would still be talking about the babysquad's latest adventures.

I read in todays paper for every Israeli killed so far (24 i think), there has been 8 Lebanese deaths and increasing.

I get the feeling this round of action was pre-determined. Hizbullah is not supported by the Palestinians hence the silence from Hamas. Even Hizbullah's backers - Iran - have shyed away from them. All the casualties so far are civilans..living in another country.

So what is the real reason for all this death and destruction?

[The People's Hero]

The problems in that area of the world will not be sorted out in our lifetime. They just won't.

[Ultra]

The problems in that area of the world will not be sorted out in our lifetime. They just won't.

But the same was said for years about South Africa, and the regime there eventually fell!

[Ultra]

We were quite happy to tarnish the entire Irish/American and Anglo/Irish community for funding the IRA so why not the Muslim community?

During the 80's the government carried out major ops to stop funds reaching the paramilitaries and these type of ops went a long way to getting them to the negotiation table

They still managed to function pretty well, and carry out several major operations on the British mainland, including the Brighton bombing.

Both sides realised that a military solution wasn't feasible, so negotiations had to start.

Sadly we haven't yet reached that stage in the Middle East..

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

However, the oppression of Palestine by the state of Israel is not reciprocal.

A recent poll in Palestine showed the majority want peace through a 2-state solution. The Arab countries do not want Hizbullah to exist - this is pretty evident because it is not funded by any Arab countries as far as I know.

Well the secular/moderate Palestinian parties need to get their act together, because right now the official Palestinian government refuses the right of Israel to exist, and that's more bigoted than oppression!

This whole episode is quite clearly a show of Israeli military power and determination to do whatever Israel pleases

...and in this case they 'please' to step on some nasty little blighters who keep nipping at their edges. I don't have a problem with that.

Disarm the extremists from both sides from the equation however and there'd be no problem.

A majority on both sides would want peace through a 2-state solution.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

We were quite happy to tarnish the entire Irish/American and Anglo/Irish community for funding the IRA so why not the Muslim community?

You can't compare the IRA to the Muslim 'community.' Even if you compare the IRA to Hamas - it was never the IRA's platform to exterminate Britain, they only wanted their disputed territory back which was being refused them for the sake of a national minority in the north.

Some IRA activities in Britain, namely those involving civilians I didn't agree with, but largely I felt they had a purpose in the thirty-two counties as a way to counter the presence of a brutal occupying army, and to push for a complete republic as long as Thatcher and the Tories were pushing the other way.

The current situation in the Middle East is much more complicated, because for some people the disputed area is in question, and for others the whole area is in question. There's no doubt peace would be reached through a two-state solution, but the question is where to draw the border. I say take it back to what was originally agreed, and Sharon has started this, but a complete withdrawal would occur through groups like Hamas being disarmed.

[Guest]

We were quite happy to tarnish the entire Irish/American and Anglo/Irish community for funding the IRA so why not the Muslim community?

I like to blame McDonalds for that, personally.

[Dr The Singh]

The issue with the middle east is that politics are still run by religion. The west has moved on to a certain extent, the church\bible is not so much the law. Islam\Quran is the basis for the policies that run the various nations. Religion is always interpretated and bigots use various interpretatations for there means, seperating moderates from hardliners.

The extremist groups have a very hardline and bigotted interpretation and justify there cowardis and immoral killings using there religion. As long as religion is used as a political source or base, true freedom of the people and common sense will never previal.

The issue in the UK regarding hardliners (Muslims) is complicated....but the Sikhs have had the same issues after 1984 Anti-Sikh massacre, hardliners would come to Gurdwara's (Sikh Temples) and preach hate, and try to recruit youths for terror activities. The Sikhs and Sikh Temples conquered this by banning all such activities, Sikh leaders and general Sikh public were openly against such activities and confronted such people.

I was very young at the time but I remember my parents, the sikh community etc being very direct towards these elements...there were temples that remained hardline and still are, my parents etc would boycott it and even today we look at those temples with disgust even though there is no voilent or terrorist activities done by sikhs, the problem has been erridicated or is very underground.

My point is that if the Muslim commmunity, there Mosques etc openly reject those that are hardline, eventually the hardliners will have no place to recruit and eventually it will weed them out!!!! You can't expect the police\government to patrol all mosques etc, there would be an outcry, common sense has to prevail, if the muslim community wants to be part of the british community then it will have to do whats in the interest of the country it lives in!!!!

[macbeth]

excellent point mr singh.........its the unwillingness of the "moderates" to take drastic action against these groups that arouses so much suspicion

[Head Honcho]

You can't compare the IRA to the Muslim 'community.' Even if you compare the IRA to Hamas - it was never the IRA's platform to exterminate Britain, they only wanted their disputed territory back which was being refused them for the sake of a national minority in the north.

Some IRA activities in Britain, namely those involving civilians I didn't agree with, but largely I felt they had a purpose in the thirty-two counties as a way to counter the presence of a brutal occupying army, and to push for a complete republic as long as Thatcher and the Tories were pushing the other way.

The current situation in the Middle East is much more complicated, because for some people the disputed area is in question, and for others the whole area is in question. There's no doubt peace would be reached through a two-state solution, but the question is where to draw the border. I say take it back to what was originally agreed, and Sharon has started this, but a complete withdrawal would occur through groups like Hamas being disarmed.

I wasn't comparing the IRA with the Muslim community. I was however comparing how they are funded!

Irish clubs up and down the UK had whip rounds every night for the IRA and the same thing is happening in the Mosques today.

The third pillar of Islam or Zakat is the paying of alms.

This money is collected and distributed to promote Islam worldwide.

It is also distributed to a something called fisabilillah or Jihad and there are five kinds of Jihad one of which is:

"Jihad by the sword (jihad bis saif) refers to qital fi sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of God, or holy war)"

[Ultra]

I wasn't comparing the IRA with the Muslim community. I was however comparing how they are funded!

Irish clubs up and down the UK had whip rounds every night for the IRA and the same thing is happening in the Mosques today.

Two very strong assertions there. Any evidence to back them up?

And if you are so certain, have you advised the police of your sources?

[Head Honcho]

Two very strong assertions there. Any evidence to back them up?

And if you are so certain, have you advised the police of your sources?

You know as well as I do that the money isn't given directly to the terrorists.

The money is probably distibuted quite legally but what happens to it afterwards is anyone's guess!

As for the IRA.

I thought that was common knowledge, I myself witnessed it on many occasions in Leicester alone!

[Ultra]

Really?

Most Irish folk I know in Leicester would NEVER be involved with, or approve of, open fundraising events for the IRA.

In fact I don't know anywhere in England, apart perhaps from certain areas of North London, where they would EVER have taken place. Plod simply wouldn't have allowed it!

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

I think the point is that if Palestinians have a viable alternative then they are perhaps less likely to elect a group like Hamas.

It's because of Hamas' platform that I have a problem with them. Regardless of how the West views them, if they are not mad then they should be recognised themselves as legitimate.

[moseeds]

The issue with the middle east is that politics are still run by religion. The west has moved on to a certain extent, the church\bible is not so much the law. Islam\Quran is the basis for the policies that run the various nations. Religion is always interpretated and bigots use various interpretatations for there means, seperating moderates from hardliners.

The extremist groups have a very hardline and bigotted interpretation and justify there cowardis and immoral killings using there religion. As long as religion is used as a political source or base, true freedom of the people and common sense will never previal.

The issue in the UK regarding hardliners (Muslims) is complicated....but the Sikhs have had the same issues after 1984 Anti-Sikh massacre, hardliners would come to Gurdwara's (Sikh Temples) and preach hate, and try to recruit youths for terror activities. The Sikhs and Sikh Temples conquered this by banning all such activities, Sikh leaders and general Sikh public were openly against such activities and confronted such people.

I was very young at the time but I remember my parents, the sikh community etc being very direct towards these elements...there were temples that remained hardline and still are, my parents etc would boycott it and even today we look at those temples with disgust even though there is no voilent or terrorist activities done by sikhs, the problem has been erridicated or is very underground.

My point is that if the Muslim commmunity, there Mosques etc openly reject those that are hardline, eventually the hardliners will have no place to recruit and eventually it will weed them out!!!! You can't expect the police\government to patrol all mosques etc, there would be an outcry, common sense has to prevail, if the muslim community wants to be part of the british community then it will have to do whats in the interest of the country it lives in!!!!

Good point Mr Singh. But your comments are suggesting this is NOT happening/happened. Hardline groups have been barred from masjids up and down the country for years - even before 9/11. However like I have said, there is nothing stopping disgruntled groups from forming their own little fan clubs - which is exaclty what has happened. So in effect, barring these groups has had the undesired effect of pushing them underground. The problem is these little extreme groups are increasing. Why they are increasing is another topic in itself.

The issue with the Sikh homeland is not comparable to Palestine - before or after Indira Ghandis massacres - for a variety of reasons.

Some IRA activities in Britain, namely those involving civilians I didn't agree with, but largely I felt they had a purpose in the thirty-two counties as a way to counter the presence of a brutal occupying army, and to push for a complete republic as long as Thatcher and the Tories were pushing the other way.

I think this comment shows how one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. The Israeli army can be considered even worse than a brutal occupying army. Just watch the news on a regular basis to see what I mean.

As a side note, if I were to make a comment along those lines for Hamas or Hizbullah or Fatah or whichever group out there I would be arrested within minutes under the new laws.

This money is collected and distributed to promote Islam worldwide.

There is no central body to collect alms and thereafter promote Islam worldwide. Muslims fight so much amonsgt themselves that the issue of which particular brand Islam was being promoted would never be resolved!

Someone said the situation in South Africa was evntually resolved. But that was because the International community, notably the Western powers were idealogically against the regime through sanctions and boycotts. In the case of Palestine and Israel the Western powers are backing Israeli actions. UN resolutions against Israel are on paper only. Israeli aggression is ignored. Demolishing thousands of homes is ignored. Killing civilians is ignored and in many cases justified and legitimised. Even today, in Prime Ministers Question Time, Menzies Campbell asked the PM why Israel was using indefensibly inappropriate force against Lebanese civilians and civilian infrastructure, to which the PM merely brushed aside as something normal and then proceeded to blame Syria and Iran - even though Syria has lost any significant influence in Lebanon and Iran has publicly decried Hizbullah actions. This is the problem the Palestinians have been facing since the creation of Israel.

As an analogy, if the IRA bombed somewhere in UK again today, then would the UK go and kill hundreds of people in Dublin and knock out their infrastructure, and then blame the whole thing on the American-Irish? This is exactly what is happening right now in Lebanon in my opinion.

In this latest conflict, why are Lebanese civilians being killed? No one can seem to answer this question because the action by the Israelis is evidently wrong. The whole topic goes backwards and blames the Palestinians instead. I find even in the press this is what happens, which only serves to cloud the real issue of Israeli aggression and apartheid.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Really?

Most Irish folk I know in Leicester would NEVER be involved with, or approve of, open fundraising events for the IRA.

In fact I don't know anywhere in England, apart perhaps from certain areas of North London, where they would EVER have taken place. Plod simply wouldn't have allowed it!

If it happened it would have been done under the radar. I know several people who were IRA sympathisers living in South London - inevitable in city areas I guess.

The IRA were legitimate in many aspects and so are Hamas, but I don't agree with what Hamas is explicitly trying to do.

It was quite noble the manner in which many Volunteers recognised the need for a peaceful way forward, even when British Nationals were letting POWs rot in prisons. Moderates led the charge there, and so must moderates lead the way to pull Hamas back from it's extreme stance against the whole state of Israel.

[Head Honcho]

Really?

Most Irish folk I know in Leicester would NEVER be involved with, or approve of, open fundraising events for the IRA.

In fact I don't know anywhere in England, apart perhaps from certain areas of North London, where they would EVER have taken place. Plod simply wouldn't have allowed it!

Nobody mentioned anything about open fundraising events it wasn't as organised as that, in fact most of the time it involved a bucket being passed around as the Irish national anthem was being played at the end of the night-believe me it happened every night at the Irish Club opposite the bus station, to be honest I don't even know if it's still there!