Israel

[Steven]

The Telegraph article might be on to something there. There was an interesting article in The Times yesterday regarding celebrating attacks on the British by Jewish terrorist groups in 1946. Its funny how people forget their own history so quickly.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,...77717_1,00.html

Fooking disgrace.

[Ultra]

Words fail me, they really do.

Israeli hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[Head Honcho]

Bring back Moshe Dayan!

...if it were possible

[moseeds]

Bring back Moshe Dayan!

...if it were possible

err...lets not!

[moseeds]

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article14081.htm

The above links toa short video of Naom Chomsky speaking about the current events in Lebanon and how it all started off. There's even a reference to Moshe Dayan! Chomsky does a good job of summing up whats happened and why there won't be peace in Israel for a long time yet.

[Head Honcho]

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article14081.htm

The above links toa short video of Naom Chomsky speaking about the current events in Lebanon and how it all started off. There's even a reference to Moshe Dayan! Chomsky does a good job of summing up whats happened and why there won't be peace in Israel for a long time yet.

I'll leave it till sunday. I've read much of Noam Chomsky's stuff and not really in the mood to have my weekend ruined

[Thracian]

Moseeds. Has or has the Iranian president not said he wants to wipe Israel off the map?.

How come I've never heard you condemn that indefensible and quite disgusting remark. Is it what you want too?.

You seem so selective in what you read, I wonder if you have ever considered the other side.

There are references to historic provocative events beween Israel and Arab. But we in England have had it (and with interest) from the Germans and with the Irish and with God knows how many nations before that going back to the Normans and the Romans.

The Irish had memories which went back centuries but in all cases there is nothing positive about continually harking back to the past. It is understandable for a while but in the end it serves no purpose.

If we can forgive the Germans I'm bloody sure there are potential solutions to the Israel-Arab situation - except that it seems to me the Arabs don't really want a solution. They seem to want so called Arab lands for themselves, for Muslims only basically, but have no qualms whatsover about populating Christian or Catholic lands presumably because of their ambitions to spread the faith (or am I worng?). What was it was said about hypocrisy?.

In Iraq I am told members of the native population are being barred from visiting certain shops and from wearing certain Westernised sweatshirts, on pain of their lives no less. And you condemn the Israelis.

Is that really something you defend?. Do you really condone the idea of people having to live in fear of their lives from their fellow countrymen because they don't conform to a prescribed mode of behaviour? Do you, indeed, ever question yourself about these things and ask are such attitudes really justified.

Do you also condone insurgents and religious militia shielding themselves among the women and children you are rightly so concerned are getting killed. And not just in Lebanon but in Iraq where there is always a camera conveniently handy to photograph such events? There would be an outcry of disgust if any English servicemen ever did that or do you deny that it happens?

Occasionally I have raised certain questions which I thought you might answer or explain but no. You seem to gloss over the wrongs on the Muslim side and simply extend your condemnation of Israel. I suppose if anyone is fed enough propaganda they will start to believe it unfailingly.

As I said. Both sides of this dispute disgust me, and the outside agitators, the opportunists who don't care how many lives their fanaticism costs, disgust me even more. And it is time the world and the moderate Moslems cried "enough" and started getting some respect back.

And respect in this country doesn't mean answering every question with yet more bloodshed. And Hezbullah's achievement so far in seeking to get around 400 prisoners released (as I understand would be an acceptable number) is already more than that number of innocent women, children and supporters killed. Some sort of logic there, I don't think.

[Head Honcho]

I thimk these 3 words sum it up Thracian!

"for Muslims only"

Good post

I like the word you used in an earlier post, don't know if it exists but "Islamisation"

Muslims will not be happy until everyone on the planet is Muslim! Saying that they fight amongst themselves so they probably wouldn't be happy

I'm even more worried now after looking up Islamisation or Islamification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamisation

[moseeds]

Moseeds. Has or has the Iranian president not said he wants to wipe Israel off the map?.

How come I've never heard you condemn that indefensible and quite disgusting remark. Is it what you want too?.

Yes, the President of Iran has said he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Why do I have to condemn it? Of course it is disgusting, but I have specifically been arguing about the indefensibility of Israeli aggression in Lebanon. How is killing Lebanese civilians and destroying their cities going to stop Iran from making daft suggestions?

Is this what I want too? I am very angry at being asked this question - I know the question is only being asked because I am Muslim, and no i don't want Israel wiped off the map.

How come this question was not levelled at Ultra (sorry Ultra!)? Or anyone else who shows disgust at the inhumanity at the events unfolding in Lebanon? Last night Vivienne Westwood was on the Politics Show (is that what it's called?) saying exactly what I have been saying. Did anyone ask her if she wanted Israel wiped off the map? Did anyone ask her is she supported terrorism?

I am now waiting for accusations of anti-Semitism to show up. I hope they don't.

I do not see any correlation between killing Lebanese civilians and preventing Israel from being destroyed. In fact, this Israeli aggression, instead of protecting Israel might just backfire if Lebanon does take up arms and other countries start to get involved.

You seem so selective in what you read, I wonder if you have ever considered the other side.

There are references to historic provocative events beween Israel and Arab. But we in England have had it (and with interest) from the Germans and with the Irish and with God knows how many nations before that going back to the Normans and the Romans.

I read the daily papers and the same media on TV you and everyone else in the UK sees. Do you seriously believe what you see and read is the whole truth? Just like 45-second WMD's in Iraq and Osama Bin Laden being here there and everywhere, I would always take what you see and read in the media with a pinch of salt.

Yes I am selective in what I read. Just like the way the media is selective in portraying Israeli aggression.

The Irish had memories which went back centuries but in all cases there is nothing positive about continually harking back to the past. It is understandable for a while but in the end it serves no purpose.

If we can forgive the Germans I'm bloody sure there are potential solutions to the Israel-Arab situation - except that it seems to me the Arabs don't really want a solution. They seem to want so called Arab lands for themselves, for Muslims only basically, but have no qualms whatsover about populating Christian or Catholic lands presumably because of their ambitions to spread the faith (or am I worng?). What was it was said about hypocrisy?.

Yes, my grandfather came to Leicester to sew socks and live in squalor in an attempt to spread his faith! I assume you are talking about Muslims moving into the UK and Europe. Well as far as I know there is/was no centrally administered concerted effort to spread Islam to Europe! The Muslims that came to this country and still do come for one reason only – economic. Same as people of every other colour, religion and creed. As you know, in the UK, people from India were asked to come to help rebuild the mother country. Be it Hindu, Muslim or Sikh, the last thing on anyone’s mind was to spread their faith. I don’t see any hypocrisy there.

No there is no use harking back to the past. But the past you talk of is little over 50 years old. In the case of the Irish, after years and years of struggle they achieved independence. In Britain no one was occupied by German forces. I think your feelings towards the Germans would be markedly different if they had. Ask the Polish what they think of Germans today and I’m sure you’ll get an interesting answer.

Before Israel was created roughly a third of the population was Jewish, so I don’t think it’s a case of wanting the land for themselves. It’s more a case of the Israelis oppressing the Palestinians and taking more of the Palestinians land away, even as we speak.

In Iraq I am told members of the native population are being barred from visiting certain shops and from wearing certain Westernised sweatshirts, on pain of their lives no less. And you condemn the Israelis.

Is that really something you defend?. Do you really condone the idea of people having to live in fear of their lives from their fellow countrymen because they don't conform to a prescribed mode of behaviour? Do you, indeed, ever question yourself about these things and ask are such attitudes really justified.

In Iraq, I am told approximately 150-000 - 250,000 people have been killed since American and British troops started the War. And you condemn not being able to go to shops! I don't support such ideologies. I know in many cases people are barred from shopping due to safety. Would you want to go to get some milk dodging bullets? However the ideologies that you claim becoming widespread is something I do not support. They are not supported by shariah nor by moral ethic codes.

The interesting thing is, this debate seems to be going along the lines of "Your Muslim ways are worse than what the Israelis are doing, so put up or shut up". I am specifically talking about Israeli aggression in Lebanon. Why am I having to defend or attack what is happening in Iraq? How is this in anyway pertinent to what is happening in Lebanon? I fail to see the connection.

Do you also condone insurgents and religious militia shielding themselves among the women and children you are rightly so concerned are getting killed. And not just in Lebanon but in Iraq where there is always a camera conveniently handy to photograph such events? There would be an outcry of disgust if any English servicemen ever did that or do you deny that it happens?

No I don't condone using civilians as shields. Do you agree with what the Americans were doing in Vietnam? Guerrilla warfare is a reprehensible form of fighting that is used by the weaker group. I do not believe destroying civilian infrastructure and killing civilians will help your cause. Instead, as the Americans found out, and as the British found out over a hundred years ago in Afghanistan, you can never win. This is not new knowledge, I am not military and I can tell you this. Even Israel knows bombing civilian areas does not work because it tried it over 20 years ago with the same pretext then eventually backed out in 2000. So why does it think bombing Lebanese civilians will work now all of a sudden?!?

Conveniently located cameras? An excellent article in the Guardian a few weeks back shed light on what cameramen have to do. In Iraq, any media person is likely to be killed - by both Iraqis and US troops. In Iraq, The US army only allows western media to enter a certain "safe" area in the city to show how in control it is - this is the Green Zone - a small area close to the base. Outside this is the Red Zone where the constant fighting is. Many people, mostly Iraqis themselves risk their lives with camcorders - so that conveniently you and I can watch comfortably from our sofas in the evening.

Occasionally I have raised certain questions which I thought you might answer or explain but no. You seem to gloss over the wrongs on the Muslim side and simply extend your condemnation of Israel. I suppose if anyone is fed enough propaganda they will start to believe it unfailingly.

Of course there are wrongs on the Palestinian side. Most notably Hizbullah. I have not glossed over what the Muslims are doing. I am not alone in thinking what Israel is doing is wrong. My condemnation of Israel is not only shared by most other Muslims, but by Christians, Jews, people other faiths and of no faiths. I met a Jewish group called "Jews for Palestine". It consisted of Orthodox Rabbis opposed to Israeli actions, and some of them opposed to the Jewish state also based on religious grounds (modern Israel is the brainchild of the Zionist movement which is not supported by a minority of jews). Two wrongs do not make a right. If Israel is doing things because it is supposed to be taking the Moral High Ground in every matter, how is it justified in killing Lebanese civilians for the sake of 2 captured soldiers?

You cannot justify Israeli actions by saying Muslims are doing worse things elsewhere (which is what I think you are saying, so forgive me if I have got the wrong end of the stick).

As I said. Both sides of this dispute disgust me, and the ouitside agitators, the opportunities who don't care how many lives their fanaticism costs, disgust me even more. And it is time the world and the moderate Moslems cried "enough" and started getting some respect back.

I still don't understand what moderate Muslims are supposed to do. We can condemn both sides till we are blue in the face. But if people like yourself do not hear it, then that does not mean it is not being said.

The world will not say "enough" just yet because they condone Israeli actions (the American Senate unanimously backed Israeli actions yesterday, Yo Tony can’t bring himself to disagree).

Yes the actions of both sides are disgusting. But subjectively speaking, the actions of the Israeli Government disgust me more. This whole situation started after the Israelis bombed a family on a beach in Palestine, and then took a doctor and his brother who are presumed dead. In retaliation….well the rest is already history.

[Ultra]

Moseeds, I admire what you write and your depth of knowledge on this topic.

But there are better uses for your time and energies than preaching to the terminally bigoted.

When a poster proclaims, as someone on here did recently, that "Muslims will take over the UK within 20 years", that person is clearly too full of BNP-inspired bullsh!t to be capable of making an informed contribution to any discussion on Islam or, by extension, the Middle East.

I don't know why he chose to attack you and not me. That's a question only he can answer and I look forward to him doing so.

The issue is Israel - a country shamelessly and unconditionally backed by our government. Before anyone asks, I don't deny it the right to exist - any more than I did South Africa during the days of apartheid. However, it has flouted international law for decades and as long as it continues to do so, grievances against it will continue to fester.

[moseeds]

Thanks for your kind words Ultra. I won't pretend I know everything about the Palestine-Israel conflict but I do know enough to combat misinformation.

The points raised by Thracian, Allen etc are pertinent points. Like yourself and South Africa, I feel I have to speak out against the misinformation that circulates in our media and ultimately amongst people like you and me.

I came across this article, of all places on the Leicester Mercury website:

"WORDS OF WAR NEED TO BE READ WITH CARE "

Differences in the words of the news media indicate different views of the Middle East, says Andrea Smith

Anyone without a spare few hours to sift through media reports might have the impression that the current Middle East crisis was sparked by the out-of-the-blue kidnap of an Israeli solider. It is true that this was the trigger for Israel's devastating retaliation, but it wasn't out of the blue. The day before Israeli troops entered Palestinian territory and took two Palestinians who were allegedly members of Hamas. This was the first time the Israeli army had entered the Gaza strip since it supposedly left a year earlier. Despite its significance, the incursion was largely unreported.

Four days before the soldier was taken, Israeli missiles, fired into Gaza, killed a pregnant woman and her brother and injured six children and five adults.

The soldier's name has been broadcast around the world. The dead woman was one of 25 faceless Palestinian civilians including seven children who were killed by Israeli rockets in a month.

That's not to say that Palestinian fighters have been simply watching the bombs fall.

They have been firing Qassam rockets that are so crude that the Israeli human rights group B'TSelem, which works to publicise the abuses suffered by both sides in the Occupied Territories, has said they should not be used at all because they can't be sufficiently controlled to avoid civilians.

However, it does seem that when Israelis take someone, it is called capture or arrest and detention and when the Palestinians take a soldier, it is kidnap. When Israeli actions kill civilians, it's an accident. When they destroy the basic facilities necessary for survival, it is retaliation. Yet when Palestinian fighters act, it is a provocation.

There is no doubt that both sides have been in the wrong, but Israel is so much more powerful, that it is impossible to fear for both sides equally. The Israelis have the Palestinians pinned with their backs to the wall. The Palestinians' vital services and freedom of movement are controlled by the Israeli government.

For every Qassam rocket fired at Israelis, Palestinians get seven or eight heavy artillery shells back. One Israeli soldier has been taken, but 8,000 Palestinians are being held without charge or trial in Israel.

Neither side is completely in the right, but the Palestinian people pay a much higher price for being in the wrong.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/disp...me=filtersearch

I think this article says everything I want to say in much better prose and strucure.

I do not agree with suicide bombings or targetting civilians. Doing these disgusting things are completely against Islamic law. The Palestinians hold Saladin the Great in high regard but ignore what made him great. Until they also adjust their mentality then only will they prosper.

The issue is Israel - a country shamelessly and unconditionally backed by our government. Before anyone asks, I don't deny it the right to exist - any more than I did South Africa during the days of apartheid. However, it has flouted international law for decades and as long as it continues to do so, grievances against it will continue to fester.

Spot on Ultra. Again, if only people remember and learn from history will they then not make the same mistakes. The day when Israel brings whole-hearted and fair negotiations to the peace table will be the day peace is proclaimed.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

The struggles in Palestine and Lebanon ARE linked, whether you like it or not.

Okay...

Palestine doesn't like Israel...

Hezbollah doesn't like Israel...

There's your link.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

But there are better uses for your time and energies than preaching to the terminally bigoted.

Last time I checked, a 'bigot' wasn't 'someone who holds a different opinion to moseeds.'

[breadandcheese]

I think the issue that pervades is whether this is an issue of Israel, or whether it is a problem of Islamic fundamentalism (I am careful not to say Islam as a religion but those that bring Islam into the political forum).

The issue in Lebanon is not about the capture of 2 soldiers, as much as would like to be portrayed. That was the spark that lit the petrol, but it is not the issue. For Israel, this has become about keeping their Northern Border quiet. I was listening to the Haifa mayor last night on the news. He was saying how he had campaigned for years for Israeli forces to unilaterally pull-out from Lebanon, which they finally did in 2000. He was overjoyed that he had been a part of an internal Israeli political movement that helped to achieve this. He now feels that Israel must move in to quiet Hezbollah.

This does not justify innocent civilian casualties of course not, but in the same way I feel there should be more recognition of cause alongside effect (and quite frankly, it is cheap politics to tie the cause in with the Palestinian cause). Iran have their fingers in all the pies as they seek to tie down the Middle East and deflect attention from their nuclear ambitions. As I have said, it is a little too concidental that on the day Iran was supposed to feedback to the European diplomatic proposal, Hezbollah launched their attack. This is an attack that took many months to plan and being Hezbollah's biggest operation for many years, would have been run past the Iranians at their meeting in Syria (only two days before).

Unfortunately, this issue is far bigger than Israel and is centred on Iran. That is why America, Britain, and a few others are giving Israel room to manoeuvre. Even Arab countries and the Arab League have given Israel room to manoeuvre because they see this Iranian threat and a spreading of Shia dominance.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

I think the issue that pervades is whether this is an issue of Israel, or whether it is a problem of Islamic fundamentalism (I am careful not to say Islam as a religion but those that bring Islam into the political forum).

The issue in Lebanon is not about the capture of 2 soldiers, as much as would like to be portrayed. That was the spark that lit the petrol, but it is not the issue. For Israel, this has become about keeping their Northern Border quiet. I was listening to the Haifa mayor last night on the news. He was saying how he had campaigned for years for Israeli forces to unilaterally pull-out from Lebanon, which they finally did in 2000. He was overjoyed that he had been a part of an internal Israeli political movement that helped to achieve this. He now feels that Israel must move in to quiet Hezbollah.

This does not justify innocent civilian casualties of course not, but in the same way I feel there should be more recognition of cause alongside effect (and quite frankly, it is cheap politics to tie the cause in with the Palestinian cause). Iran have their fingers in all the pies as they seek to tie down the Middle East and deflect attention from their nuclear ambitions. As I have said, it is a little too concidental that on the day Iran was supposed to feedback to the European diplomatic proposal, Hezbollah launched their attack. This is an attack that took many months to plan and being Hezbollah's biggest operation for many years, would have been run past the Iranians at their meeting in Syria (only two days before).

Unfortunately, this issue is far bigger than Israel and is centred on Iran. That is why America, Britain, and a few others are giving Israel room to manoeuvre. Even Arab countries and the Arab League have given Israel room to manoeuvre because they see this Iranian threat and a spreading of Shia dominance.

These are all very good observations. It's essential to recognise that as a nation state Israel should be allowed some room to secure its northern border, given that their forces are no longer on Lebanese land. The West Bank territory is the disputed region, not the north - the problem in the north, as breadandcheese has pointed out, could be construed as a problem eminating from Islamic fundamentalism and such from a general distaste of the existance of Israel in their region.

[Thracian]

Moseeds, I admire what you write and your depth of knowledge on this topic.

But there are better uses for your time and energies than preaching to the terminally bigoted.

When a poster proclaims, as someone on here did recently, that "Muslims will take over the UK within 20 years", that person is clearly too full of BNP-inspired bullsh!t to be capable of making an informed contribution to any discussion on Islam or, by extension, the Middle East.

I don't know why he chose to attack you and not me. That's a question only he can answer and I look forward to him doing so.

The issue is Israel - a country shamelessly and unconditionally backed by our government. Before anyone asks, I don't deny it the right to exist - any more than I did South Africa during the days of apartheid. However, it has flouted international law for decades and as long as it continues to do so, grievances against it will continue to fester.

I think it was I who talked about Muslims taking over the UK in 20 years and I'm happy to stand by that. There is already considerable Moslem influence and representation on the councils of many major British cities and it is already clear they have great influence and are given great consideration at a national level.

This opinion results in the predictable but utterly outrageous declaration that I am "terminally bigotted" because I am "too full of BNP bullshit".

Talk about the pot calling the kettle. I certainly hope your other opinions are more soundly based. I have never been on a BNP website nor had any contact/connection with the BNP in my life. Nor would I ever expect to.

As I understand it the BNP reputedly has Nazi sympathies. My extended family lost close to 120 fathers, sons wives and daughters to the Germans in the First and Second World Wars.

I have read the history of the German Reich in huge detail on several occasions and there is nothing I have ever read which is more shameful and more disgusting - and nothing could possibly mirror the Nazi's attitude to Jews, except perhaps the Iranian President and those who sympathise with him.

Despite that I have said that I feel the Germans have tried hard to re-invent themselves - and showed it at the Wold Cup - and that there is no sensible purpose in maintaining hatred an-infinitum.

Indeed it would be grossly hypocritical of myself to do so. But it is not an attitude the rests easy with me as you might imagine.

Both you and Moseeds seem upset that I asked some questions for no other reason than I was interested in Moseeds point of view on the matters. I thank him for taking the trouble to reply and wouldn't dream of calling him bigotted or any other insult as a result.

I have always considered the whole purpose of debate was to understand an issue more clearly.

If Moseeds says that he thinks the Iranian President's desire to destroy Israel is a daft suggestion I fully accept and welcome that.

I would howver disagree that there is no connection between the Iranian President's statement and the Hezbollah action because Hezbollah are clearly supported by Iran and Israel are right to feel threatened by them.

Moseeds says that Muslims come to the UK for one reason - for reason of economics only. I would have no problem whatsoever with that were it true.

Indeed if I were young I would probably leave the UK tomorrow for economic reasons which makes a nonsense of any suggestion that I am in some way a "nationalist" although I do love much about my country and the values it stands for.

Unfortunately what Moseeds says on that is not true. If it were, then fundamentalist agitators like Omar Bakri and Abu Hanza et al wouldn't have preached their hatred and wouldn't have tried to aggle young Muslim minds.

And, of course, people from Leeds and Luton and significant others wouldn't be operating as suicide bombers and blasting people as innocent as the Israelis ever killed to shreds.

I would like to ask many other questions to try and understand Muslim thinking because there seem to be so many contradictions and far too much desire to control other people's thinking including that of their their own people.

But Ultra is right that it is probably utterly futile to continue this debate when minds are so clearly made up on certain matters and certain beliefs.

And does that statement imply any sort of disrespect to you Utlra or to Moseeds?. Not a bit. I respect and value your opinion on most matters, even agree on many occasions. We just have a different viewpoint on this subject and although I don't know about you, I can live with that.

I also find it disappointing that you give the impression there seems so little reason to believe that hatred between Arab and Israeli will diminish.

It would be welcome to think that good sense and genuine dialogue will find a lasting solution which stops all the unnecessary bloodshed in Palestine and Lebanon which has emanated from two sides' intransigence and the utterly immoral opportunism of outsiders who fan the flames of conflict.

This intransigence has cost so many lives and plunged an entire country into despair for no defensible reason whatsoever when the dialogue I mentioned was and will be the way forward in the end.

Unless, of course, we have a wider conflict, which is not impossble. And if that happens it will reflect even more shamefully on the current intransigence.

[vanfox12]

They all are bad as each other, Hamas and Hizbollah, should know better.......they believe the world is going soft on them and the worlds attention is on Iraq so they will give the dirty kidnapping tricks another try. Isreal being the super of the region, just flexes it's muscles at will.

I feel sorry for the civilians that get entangled with this mess!!!

Thats the problem the people in the middle always get forgotten.

[Ultra]

Last time I checked, a 'bigot' wasn't 'someone who holds a different opinion to moseeds.'

That wasn't what I said..

[Ultra]

I think it was I who talked about Muslims taking over the UK in 20 years and I'm happy to stand by that.

It was indeed you.

If you still truly and honestly believe that you're not worth bothering with.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

It was indeed you.

If you still truly and honestly believe that you're not worth bothering with.

Don't 'bother' then.

It'll happen in Oz before it happens in the UK. The divorce rate is through the roof and we're aborting ourselves out of existance. The only people left with some sound moral values are people of the Islamic faith.

[macbeth]

Don't 'bother' then.

It'll happen in Oz before it happens in the UK. The divorce rate is through the roof and we're aborting ourselves out of existance. The only people left with some sound moral values are people of the Islamic faith.

hopefully people will have realised the stupidity of all religions in the near future

[crazy horse]

hopefully people will have realised the stupidity of all religions in the near future

alas i don't think so ; it will take a few more generations for that.....we are stuck with religious zealotry and bigotry

[Thracian]

It was indeed you.

If you still truly and honestly believe that you're not worth bothering with.

Do you deny that influence is there? Do you deny the amount of Muslim presence on our major City councils and do you not think I should be concerned about such influence?

Your faith may be of vital importance to you and I respect that but to me it denies people too many important freedoms that have long been taken for granted in this country.

That doesn't mean I have no time for people who are prepared to sacrifice such freedoms for what they believe in. Quite the contrary. In some ways it must be great to have such certainty in one's beliefs.

But I think freedom is precious. It is hard won and all too easily lost because people in power the world over are forever trying to reduce it. Freedom for people rarely, if ever, sits easily with those who wish to control folk.

[Daggers]

I'll leave it till sunday. I've read much of Noam Chomsky's stuff and not really in the mood to have my weekend ruined

It's a U-tube commentary with subtitles.

I have a massive amount of respect for Noam Chomsky, sometimes it appears that he is one of the few (given the opportunity) that speaks out for common sense and decency.

Another source of information is http://www.truthout.org/ for anyone interested in a less twisted form of the truth.

[crazy horse]

It's a U-tube commentary with subtitles.

I have a massive amount of respect for Noam Chomsky, sometimes it appears that he is one of the few (given the opportunity) that speaks out for common sense and decency.

Another source of information is http://www.truthout.org/ for anyone interested in a less twisted form of the truth.

reading a lot of the tendentious posts on here , i'm beginning to think that truth is whatever people want to believe