Israel

[Dr The Singh]

Some purportedly "left-wing" groups (eg George Galloway's "Respect" party) have indeed aligned themselves with some undoubtedly reactionary Islamic elements for cynical and opportunistic reasons. This alliance has been roundly criticised by other left-wing groups and rightly so.

However this should not be used to condone or excuse the excesses of the USA, which are numerous not only in the Middle East but in other areas of the planet.

And the US started bankrolling Israel long before Hamas and Hesbollah came on the scene.

Only cus they knew, that these low lifes would do there bidding and didn't see them as a threat, only recently has the Islamic threat being taken seriously, for years many analyst for warned US\UK but nothing was done, now these Jihadis are in there backyard!!!!

[breadandcheese]

Some purportedly "left-wing" groups (eg George Galloway's "Respect" party) have indeed aligned themselves with some undoubtedly reactionary Islamic elements for cynical and opportunistic reasons. This alliance has been roundly criticised by other left-wing groups and rightly so.

However this should not be used to condone or excuse the excesses of the USA, which are numerous not only in the Middle East but in other areas of the planet.

And the US started bankrolling Israel long before Hamas and Hesbollah came on the scene.

No-one condones the US for its mistakes, but to blindly ignore the actions of other more barbaric nations is ridiculous. This is where I draw issue. Anti-american groups in bed with Islamic fundamentalists is abhorrent. It gets to the point now where some countries and people in the Middle East cannot side with America on any issue for fear of being labelled as collaborators (with a punishment of death or violence).

This constant criticism of America or political friends of America based solely on an anti-american feeling, bordering on racism is plain wrong and without foundation. It has become fashionable to knock America. When you have people like Ken Livingstone cosying up to Chinese officials and comparing the Tiannamen Square massacre to the poll tax riots, whilst furiously criticising America, there is a prejudice clouding discussion that is appalling.

Bringing this back to Israel, most of the criticism Israel receives (particularly in the media) is very much against the backdrop of this anti-american feeling.

Re: US started bankrolling Israel long before Hamas and Hazbollah came on the scene, I believe it was about the same time the Russians were bankrolling many Arab nationalist governments. The fun of Cold War politics.

[Thracian]

Excesses? Women charity workers getting kidnapped and beheaded, other captives having their throats slit, women getting stoned to death because they offend Sharia law, people being executed for wearing western style teeshirts. How many innocents did Saddam Hussein slaughter? How can you talk of American excesses.

In Lebanon (according to The Sunday Times) there is a thriving underworld business re-fixing young girls hymens because they are so terrified of the consequences of not being "virgins" on their wedding night.

All this talk of women and children being killed by the US or Israeli military but the fundamentalists even terrify their own women - and are quite happy to execute those who fail to do as they are told.

You are surely not trying to kid anyone that all was sweetness and light in the Muslim world before American intervention? I wonder what the Kurds would say or the Arghan peole who offended the Taliban etc etc.

Why do you forever try to shift the emphasis of blame?. As a supposed Christian Tony Blair is an indefensible hypocrite and George Bush beneath contempt for his arrogant attempt to be world policeman, judge and jury but there are plenty in front of them on the road to damnation.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Eyal Berkovic -- especially in his Southampton days, cracking player.

[Head Honcho]

Eyal Berkovic -- especially in his Southampton days, cracking player.

On a lighter note!

Barry Silkman was also a cracking player in his day now coining it in as an agent!

When at Man City he went on loan to Maccabi Tel Aviv then got the first plane home when they tried to conscript him into the Israeli Army

[Daggers]

Don't know about Oz but these have become quite common over here lately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour_killing

No. That is not right, you need to define that statement first. Pigeons, chavs and the Ford Fiesta are all quite common, honour killings are not.

Bloody pigeons

[Head Honcho]

Iran and Syria, the only two countries with any influence over Hezbollah have said they will try and persuade them to agree to a ceasefire...........

..........................if they are rewarded

Say's it all really

[Head Honcho]

No. That is not right, you need to define that statement first. Pigeons, chavs and the Ford Fiesta are all quite common, honour killings are not.

Bloody pigeons

117 suspected honour killings in the UK alone between 1993-2003.

OK maybe not common but too many for us to just sweep under the carpet!

[Thracian]

117 suspected honour killings in the UK alone between 1993-2003.

OK maybe not common but too many for us to just sweep under the carpet!

Eleven a year (that we know of!).

You kill 117 people in 10 years and they'll write books about you, do a film, do in depth psychological assessments the lot.

If you are patient someone will come on to justify or explain it. Probably because of something to do with the Americans or Israelis!.

Good job Prescott's not a Muslim! Or should I have said pity he's not a Muslim and pity he's a bloke cos otherwise I was starting to see some merit...

[Thracian]

Iran and Syria, the only two countries with any influence over Hezbollah have said they will try and persuade them to agree to a ceasefire...........

..........................if they are rewarded

Say's it all really

Yeah full of "honour" that idea. We'll help stop our Muslim women children and families being caught in the corridors of death because of the senseless acts of some insurgents we arm and sponsor, but not before you give us a sweet...

As Richard Littlejohn might say: You couldn't make it up.

Hasn't anyone caught on yet? To be able to take the moral high ground you have to put your weapons down first and then shame the opposition into doing the same with words and international communication.

As I say so many times, it doesn't matter what the others do. You set your own standards.

[moseeds]

Sorry for the late replies.

I think it was I who talked about Muslims taking over the UK in 20 years and I'm happy to stand by that. There is already considerable Moslem influence and representation on the councils of many major British cities and it is already clear they have great influence and are given great consideration at a national level.

… This opinion results in the predictable but utterly outrageous declaration that I am "terminally bigotted" because I am "too full of BNP bullshit"….

The idea that Muslims are taking over the UK is scaremongering and is purely conjecture. In what sense are Muslims taking over?! What influence do we have?

Which law is it that changed and now effects you due to Muslims (don't day terror laws - they've been used to nab Irish republicans more than Muslims). Black people are given great consideration at a national level. So are Scots and Welsh. So what? Muslims don't receive preferential treatment in any walk of life. I should know.

The comments you make are assumptions Thracian, which are dangerous. I said in an earlier post the points you and other raised are pertinent. I believe what Ultra meant by bigoted was the fact that baseless claims about "taking over" are made when in reality that is nowhere near the case.

Both you and Moseeds seem upset that I asked some questions for no other reason than I was interested in Moseeds point of view on the matters. I thank him for taking the trouble to reply and wouldn't dream of calling him bigotted or any other insult as a result.

I have always considered the whole purpose of debate was to understand an issue more clearly.

If Moseeds says that he thinks the Iranian President's desire to destroy Israel is a daft suggestion I fully accept and welcome that.

I would howver disagree that there is no connection between the Iranian President's statement and the Hezbollah action because Hezbollah are clearly supported by Iran and Israel are right to feel threatened by them.

I was upset at one specific question, not the debate itself. Yes you are right, there is a connection between Iran and Hizbullah - Iran set Hizbullah up in the 80's. However, the current action against Lebanese civilians is still not justified. Whichever you look at it Israel is asking for future trouble.

By pummelling Lebanese civilians and the south of the country into the ground, Israel has at a stroke destroyed any hope of peace with Palestine again for quite a while, agitated Syria and Iran, strengthened waning support for Hizbullah amongst Palestinians, lost any support from the new Lebanese regime and risking the start of a war with Lebanon. (If I was cynical I would say this pretty much fits in with Americas “Axis of Evil†plans.) The one time when the Israelis were supposed to use diplomacy their prime-minister wanted to show the world how big a set of nuts he possesses – at the cost of hundreds of lives which threatens to escape into full war between nations.

Moseeds says that Muslims come to the UK for one reason - for reason of economics only. I would have no problem whatsoever with that were it true.

Indeed if I were young I would probably leave the UK tomorrow for economic reasons which makes a nonsense of any suggestion that I am in some way a "nationalist" although I do love much about my country and the values it stands for.

Unfortunately what Moseeds says on that is not true. If it were, then fundamentalist agitators like Omar Bakri and Abu Hanza et al wouldn't have preached their hatred and wouldn't have tried to aggle young Muslim minds.

And, of course, people from Leeds and Luton and significant others wouldn't be operating as suicide bombers and blasting people as innocent as the Israelis ever killed to shreds.

You've quoted 2 names there. That is it 2 - both of them claiming benefits! There are over 1 million Muslims in the UK and you picked up on 2 nutcases as representative of the entire Muslim UK community. They were thrown out of their own countries and claimed asylum here. Now both are thrown out again. The London bombers were born here and did not come from abroad to kill people – that is the frightening thing. I too can make baseless claims about a whole group of people and their intentions but I won’t.

I would like to ask many other questions to try and understand Muslim thinking because there seem to be so many contradictions and far too much desire to control other people's thinking including that of their their own people.

But Ultra is right that it is probably utterly futile to continue this debate when minds are so clearly made up on certain matters and certain beliefs.

There is not a desire to control other peoples thinking. Looking at it from my point of view - everyday in the news we (Muslims) are being told to integrate. For the life of me I do not understand what this means. Call me stupid, thick or whatever, I do not have a clue what it means to integrate. I go to the same shops as the rest of you; I ride the same buses; work in the same places; shop in the same places; speak the same language and support the same footy team for the love of god. I get the feeling until I start going to the pub and dance the night away at clubs - until then I will still not have integrated.

What there is a lot of in the youth of the Muslim community is anger. Unfortunately, and ironically against the very religion they claim to represent, the manifestation of this anger spills out like venom and hurts all of us. You think the London bombers only hated non-Muslims? They bombed Edgeware Road – I am a regular at Edgeware Road, and it would be best described as Melton Road here – but Arab, mostly Lebanese Arabs, but Arab in character nevertheless. That station was bombed to show the Arab population that even they are “infidels†– which shows which religion these bombers follow – none. In Islamic terms they are known as “Khwarij†– i.e. those that have “exited†the fold of Islam. This is not a new occurrence. In Islamic history there have been various groups with grievances – always political – who have resorted to such actions. In the same vain those that commit suicide bombings elsewhere – Palestine, Iraq etc are also considered to have “Khwarij†ideologies.

Therefore Thracian, although you may think Muslims should keep their problems to themselves, unfortunately our global outlook now means nothing is localised. From diseases to political ideas – these affect every single person on planet earth now.

I also find it disappointing that you give the impression there seems so little reason to believe that hatred between Arab and Israeli will diminish.

It would be welcome to think that good sense and genuine dialogue will find a lasting solution which stops all the unnecessary bloodshed in Palestine and Lebanon which has emanated from two sides' intransigence and the utterly immoral opportunism of outsiders who fan the flames of conflict.

I stand by my comment. The hatred will not diminish between either side until the biggest factor is removed - that is Israeli bias in any peace negotiations. This is the biggest barrier to peace. If you do not believe me, then why is Gaza re-occupied? Read the Leicester Mercury article I posted on the previous page to see why.

Do you deny that influence is there? Do you deny the amount of Muslim presence on our major City councils and do you not think I should be concerned about such influence?

Your faith may be of vital importance to you and I respect that but to me it denies people too many important freedoms that have long been taken for granted in this country.

Name me one single law or rule or whatever that has been introduced that denied you important freedoms because of Muslims. I can't think of any. Even the bill against religious discrimination or whatever it is called was backed by a variety of religious organisations.

[moseeds]

Thracian as always makes some great points.............Islamization isn't a new concept it was one started by it's for fathers and is ever continiuing till now. If a regime, country or tribe of people believe that there religion is superior, and that it is the will of god to impose there beliefs on others this will always bring conflict against those that wish not to be assimilate.

We have seen in the past the christians attempt to convert the world to christianity, we are seeing Moslems (not all but a %) through various means trying, in the past through there own conquest ie Mogul Empire etc, and more recent Jahidi's and devious groups such as HUT etc, and also India with Hindu nazi's that wish to make India a Hindu only nation. The only difference is that in more recent times the pro religious groups are doing there deeds in a devious, covert methods, trying to aviod public outcry.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. If you mean that the religion of Islam is spreading then how can you attribute that to terrorism etc? Surely that would have the negative effect. If you are saying Muslim nations are only having wars or creating terrorist groups to spread and convert to Islam – then just stop, and think about how that would work.

If you believe HT (Hizb-ut-Tahrir) are trying to convert everyone in the UK to Islam by scaring them into submission, then again think logically, and ask whether that would work. The Mughul Empire was created through the destruction of another Muslim empire – one run from Afghanistan. Read about Mughal history – it is not motivated by Islam but by power and land. How many Mughal emperors ended up making their own hybrid faiths?!

Which devious covert methods are these then? Obviously they are so covert even I don’t know!

Moseeds, not all muslims are the same, and majority are decent human beings but Islamization is a problem and it does exist....and duo to the foriegn policies of UK\US has fueled and catalysed the Islamization process all over the world. It only takes a small % of people to inlfuence the majority, ie Hitler\Nazism. But to blame the UK\US for the problem is 'bull', because there actions acted as catalyst, the Islamization process was still already there, ie they were not the source of the problem (not that UK|US are blme free)........I remember, long before Iraq war, while at Uni, there were groups\activist giving speaches on Islamization at Islamic Societies, handing leaflets in the street etc.

I remember speeches about how we should be a communist nation, a socialist nation, how we should become Buddhists, let Christ into our hearts etc etc. I was at university until very recently. What you are referring to is passionate young people who have grabbed on to a cause. If what they were saying was “kill everyone non-muslim†which I doubt then of course I would be concerned. If they were saying we should try and spread our faith then fair enough, you hear that same message from every other religious group (except Sikhs of course).

I believe what you mean by Islamisation is the spread of Shariah law across some parts of the world. Firstly, there is no country on Earth that implements Shariah law – only bits of it – most famously beheading, lashing etc. The rest of the laws relating to “mundane†stuff is omitted because it does not serve the rulers’ needs. A case in point – a recent report from Somalia described how a community introduced Shariah law, only it turns out nobody knew what it was so ended up giving justice based on personal whims and local customs. Therefore, secondly, what is often touted as Shariah law is often just local customs and culture being touted as punishable law, like Thracians comments that people cannot wear shirts in parts of Iraq.

Regarding everyone’s favourite Shariah topic, adultery, I will comment on that later.

Like I have said, Moslem nations are run by religion, (Quran), which is a very old 'document' one which has several interpretations and issues which would concern the western world (Sharia Law), compared to other nations that have moved away from religion being do all and end all of life and which people have made and changed doctrines according what is applicable to the time and nature of the people. Mosseds has mentioned a 'special relationship' between muslims, one which I find disturbing, without clarity and total independant thought, the relationship will always be biased towards it's kin and kind, which can be influenced towards it's own even if they are wrong!!! This can be seen, as when Hamas\Hizbollah or any terrorist organisation kill innocents, non of the muslim countries or people are in outcry, yet when brits or any western nation kill an innocent, you see droves of brits showing discontent towards there own!!!!!

That is a common misconception that Muslim nations are run by Shariah. Take a walk across the Internet’s many Muslim message boards and read the anger spewed against “Muslim†nations by other Muslims for claiming to be governed according to Shariah. These countries are Muslim because their populations are majority Muslim. Their laws are anything but. Take Syria as an example. The president there will do anything to stay in power. The jails are full of Muslim activists against him. Thousands have been killed for speaking out against their government. How Islamic is that?

And that is the crux of the matter. This Islamisation you talk about began as a political movement – not religious – against these corrupt regimes in Syria, Egypt, Algeria,etc – Arab countries. What we see now 50 years later is that political movement transformed and twisted into a religious cult hell bent on causing destruction. It is just as dangerous to Muslims as it is to non-Muslims. If you don’t believe me then trawl the news for the number of bombs gone off in Muslim countries killing civilian Muslims.

Yes it is true nobody marches when Hizbullah or Hamas kills civilians. I assume you mean marching against the Iraq war etc. The difference is huge between Hamas or Hizbullah killing people and US/UK going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that diffeence is 1) Justification 2) Scale. When you go to war against a country that has never attacked you, nor willing to attack you, nor capable of attacking you and then claiming it is legitimate before killing hundreds of thousands (between 150,000 – 100,000, then how can you even begin to compare what Hamas and Hizbullah have done to that?!?!

But the West have been happy to encourage and even fund militant Islamic groups when it suited their purposes.

Remember Reagan's covert support for the Iranians during the war with Iraq in the 1980s, and open support for the Taliban in its attempts to force the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

Osama bin Laden didn't arrive from another planet - he was a monster the Americans themselves helped to create.

Spot on Ultra. Deception from our leaders continues to this very day.

nobody else arrived from another planet....... thats the point .......this constant blaming of the US for everything religious zealot nutters keep doing is ridiculous .......you may as well blame britain for helping to create the usa and everything bush does henceforth

Why not ask countries that have been paying debt to the World Bank after their economies collapsed who they blame – the World Bank or America? A program came on Sky 1 a few weeks back and I was surprised it was allowed to be aired. It was celebrating the CIA’s something birthday, but with dark wit.

What it showed was the hand that the CIA had in every major political event across the globe since WW2. This program should be made compulsory viewing. The number of people directly attributed to CIA shenanigans was numbering in the millions, not to mention the regimes they supported which killed even more people. Some examples were, Indonesia, the Contras, nearly every country in South America, Che Guevera, Pinochet, Saddam, Osama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan…the list went on and on, year after year, life after life. The human cost of these CIA games was enormous. If you believe everything in the world is happening because “it just does†then that would be a very naïve view to take.

Don’t believe me? What did the British parliament do when documents were leaked that America was planning on invading Iraq regardless of WMD’s or UN resolutions? Answer – nothing. How many more conflicts are awaiting to be started, only for yo Blair to be told about the real motives a long time thereafter.

…A beautiful and fluid thing, things go awry when people try to fix too many constants to the equation which breeds stubborness and bigotry.

I think that is the best most sensible thing I’ve read on here.

Apologies for the stupidly long post…it’s put me to sleep just writing it so don’t know about reading it…!

[Daggers]

117 suspected honour killings in the UK alone between 1993-2003.

Eleven a year (that we know of!).

Sources please gentlemen?

My research unearths that

Police believe there may be as many as 12 honour killings in the UK every year.

and nothing of more substance than that.

This is not proof, it is not evidence and it is not good arguement. The police believed that the Birmingham 6 were guilty too ~ I don't have an awful lot of faith in unsupported statements

[Ultra]

What it showed was the hand that the CIA had in every major political event across the globe since WW2. This program should be made compulsory viewing. The number of people directly attributed to CIA shenanigans was numbering in the millions, not to mention the regimes they supported which killed even more people. Some examples were, Indonesia, the Contras, nearly every country in South America, Che Guevera, Pinochet, Saddam, Osama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan…the list went on and on, year after year, life after life. The human cost of these CIA games was enormous. If you believe everything in the world is happening because “it just does†then that would be a very naïve view to take.

Don’t believe me? What did the British parliament do when documents were leaked that America was planning on invading Iraq regardless of WMD’s or UN resolutions? Answer – nothing. How many more conflicts are awaiting to be started, only for yo Blair to be told about the real motives a long time thereafter.

And then folk wonder why some of us have issues with dear old Uncle Sam...

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

but when do any organised religions ever stop at sharing ...........once they have gained enough support it invariably leads to imposition by some means;...

sometimes overt but more worryingly insidious and in a style the mafia would be proud of

I wouldn't say that. It certainly has done in the past, but most world religions today exist for the participants themselves. There are always people who seek to impose, but that can be said of almost anything - when someone believes in something strongly, whether it be a thought, idea or conception, some will seek to force others to come around to their point of view.

However I think what I and the Singh are saying is that religion is a personal thing, the essense of which shouldn't be sought to be imposed but experienced and understood by the participant.

[Steven]

Sources please gentlemen?

My research unearths that and nothing of more substance than that.

This is not proof, it is not evidence and it is not good arguement. The police believed that the Birmingham 6 were guilty too ~ I don't have an awful lot of faith in unsupported statements

Five-year death toll from 'police action': 328

That is a "terrorist" attack every year.

Source

[Dr The Singh]

I don’t understand what you are trying to say. If you mean that the religion of Islam is spreading then how can you attribute that to terrorism etc? Surely that would have the negative effect. If you are saying Muslim nations are only having wars or creating terrorist groups to spread and convert to Islam – then just stop, and think about how that would work.

If you believe HT (Hizb-ut-Tahrir) are trying to convert everyone in the UK to Islam by scaring them into submission, then again think logically, and ask whether that would work. The Mughul Empire was created through the destruction of another Muslim empire – one run from Afghanistan. Read about Mughal history – it is not motivated by Islam but by power and land. How many Mughal emperors ended up making their own hybrid faiths?!

Which devious covert methods are these then? Obviously they are so covert even I don’t know!

I remember speeches about how we should be a communist nation, a socialist nation, how we should become Buddhists, let Christ into our hearts etc etc. I was at university until very recently. What you are referring to is passionate young people who have grabbed on to a cause. If what they were saying was “kill everyone non-muslim†which I doubt then of course I would be concerned. If they were saying we should try and spread our faith then fair enough, you hear that same message from every other religious group (except Sikhs of course).

I believe what you mean by Islamisation is the spread of Shariah law across some parts of the world. Firstly, there is no country on Earth that implements Shariah law – only bits of it – most famously beheading, lashing etc. The rest of the laws relating to “mundane†stuff is omitted because it does not serve the rulers’ needs. A case in point – a recent report from Somalia described how a community introduced Shariah law, only it turns out nobody knew what it was so ended up giving justice based on personal whims and local customs. Therefore, secondly, what is often touted as Shariah law is often just local customs and culture being touted as punishable law, like Thracians comments that people cannot wear shirts in parts of Iraq.

Regarding everyone’s favourite Shariah topic, adultery, I will comment on that later.

That is a common misconception that Muslim nations are run by Shariah. Take a walk across the Internet’s many Muslim message boards and read the anger spewed against “Muslim†nations by other Muslims for claiming to be governed according to Shariah. These countries are Muslim because their populations are majority Muslim. Their laws are anything but. Take Syria as an example. The president there will do anything to stay in power. The jails are full of Muslim activists against him. Thousands have been killed for speaking out against their government. How Islamic is that?

And that is the crux of the matter. This Islamisation you talk about began as a political movement – not religious – against these corrupt regimes in Syria, Egypt, Algeria,etc – Arab countries. What we see now 50 years later is that political movement transformed and twisted into a religious cult hell bent on causing destruction. It is just as dangerous to Muslims as it is to non-Muslims. If you don’t believe me then trawl the news for the number of bombs gone off in Muslim countries killing civilian Muslims.

Yes it is true nobody marches when Hizbullah or Hamas kills civilians. I assume you mean marching against the Iraq war etc. The difference is huge between Hamas or Hizbullah killing people and US/UK going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that diffeence is 1) Justification 2) Scale. When you go to war against a country that has never attacked you, nor willing to attack you, nor capable of attacking you and then claiming it is legitimate before killing hundreds of thousands (between 150,000 – 100,000, then how can you even begin to compare what Hamas and Hizbullah have done to that?!?!

Spot on Ultra. Deception from our leaders continues to this very day.

Why not ask countries that have been paying debt to the World Bank after their economies collapsed who they blame – the World Bank or America? A program came on Sky 1 a few weeks back and I was surprised it was allowed to be aired. It was celebrating the CIA’s something birthday, but with dark wit.

What it showed was the hand that the CIA had in every major political event across the globe since WW2. This program should be made compulsory viewing. The number of people directly attributed to CIA shenanigans was numbering in the millions, not to mention the regimes they supported which killed even more people. Some examples were, Indonesia, the Contras, nearly every country in South America, Che Guevera, Pinochet, Saddam, Osama, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Afghanistan…the list went on and on, year after year, life after life. The human cost of these CIA games was enormous. If you believe everything in the world is happening because “it just does†then that would be a very naïve view to take.

Don’t believe me? What did the British parliament do when documents were leaked that America was planning on invading Iraq regardless of WMD’s or UN resolutions? Answer – nothing. How many more conflicts are awaiting to be started, only for yo Blair to be told about the real motives a long time thereafter.

I think that is the best most sensible thing I’ve read on here.

Apologies for the stupidly long post…it’s put me to sleep just writing it so don’t know about reading it…!

Moseeds, I should have been clearer, what i'm saying is that Izlamisation (ie radicalisation) of your faith is spreading, there are those that are moderates and then there are those that are moderate and become more radical. Yes, I do say that there is a underlying jihad of conversion, and there always has been, it's a part of Islam, (just like christain missionaries), to teach the infedils of there ways and ensure they understand mohammed is the prophet of god....I do apologise Moseeds if I have got this wrong, I have read alot about Islam and the quran and hadiths but alot is interpretable.

I no nothing on Moghul EMpire and it's history only it's relation to Sikhism, and many were forced to convert or die a death. Moghul's were tyrants, they would enslave women for there concubines, enslave non muslims and death penalty to infedils was common. If you were a muslims however, a decent paid job and feeedom was on offer. They turned a saintly religion of Sikhism into one of saint soldiers, one which kicked there ass under exceptional circumstamces and booted them out from India, once and forever!!!!

Power and land may well be the driving force of a conquest but it's always in the name of religion, those soldiers do not see the money they see themselves as fighting for there faith!!!! The Sikhs wer no exception, they conquered all the way to Afghan, the King did for revenue, the soldiers were all saint soldeirs!!!

The devious means are those used by those cowards that preace hate and want to commit people for suicide missions and dare not themselves, perfect example is Omar Bakri. There are those not all that manipulate the weak ie Alijah Mohammed, manipulated Islam, in stating white people are pigs in relation to Islam( even though mohammed was white in complextion), and as we know converted many black people using such misconceptions. HUT\HT are evil c*nts, I know from first hand, there methods as I know are very covert, majority of there supporters are underground ie will not openly admit.

How can anyone condone Sharia Law, in part or full??? There are muslims that want to implement it, for eg, the many muslim parties in Pakistan for example. Like I say, If religion is the basis for your life, it will only isolate you and any one else from outside that religion will be seen with distrust and fear. You lose all clarity and independant thought as the 'book' does all the thinking for you!!!

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with US foriegn policy etc, but even the Israeli's are protesting against the current campaign against there own.

[Ultra]

This debate is in danger of generating more heat than light.

But to those who want to catalogue the atrocities that have taken place and are taking place in the name of Islam, let's also look at some of the concepts Christianity (or at least those acting in its name) have given the world.

Crusades

Inquisition

Slavery

Holocaust

Apartheid

Ethnic Cleansing

Not to mention the supreme example of communal harmony that exists, managed as always with typical British expertise and sensitivity, in Northern Ireland..

[Dr The Singh]

This debate is in danger of generating more heat than light.

But to those who want to catalogue the atrocities that have taken place and are taking place in the name of Islam, let's also look at some of the concepts Christianity (or at least those acting in its name) have given the world.

Crusades

Inquisition

Slavery

Holocaust

Apartheid

Ethnic Cleansing

Not to mention the supreme example of communal harmony that exists, managed as always with typical British expertise and sensitivity, in Northern Ireland..

My points were only in relation to what Moseeds reply who has given an objective arguement on the muslim perspective, but man kind in the name of religion throughout the centuries has commited many attrocities, that goes for Islam, Christainity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judiusm etc. There is no justification for killing innocents and there is no justification of forcing one's beliefs on others or persecuting others that differ in there beliefs.

Religion has always been used as a tool for power and justification for power. But in recent times, capatalism is now the tool for power, it's more subtle than religion, to an extent we are all involved!!!

[Daggers]

That is a "terrorist" attack every year.

Source

Thanks Steven ... but my question for sources was in relation to "honour killings" not deaths while in custody. I'm a bit confused

~ but that is a normal state of being for me

[Thracian]

This debate is in danger of generating more heat than light.

But to those who want to catalogue the atrocities that have taken place and are taking place in the name of Islam, let's also look at some of the concepts Christianity (or at least those acting in its name) have given the world.

Crusades

Inquisition

Slavery

Holocaust

Apartheid

Ethnic Cleansing

Not to mention the supreme example of communal harmony that exists, managed as always with typical British expertise and sensitivity, in Northern Ireland..

Unlike the Palestinians/Israelis the English have seriously tried to sort out and overcome the problems in Northern Ireland instead of continually harking back into history to make solutions even harder...and that comes from someone who's daughter in law's father's carpet business in Belfast was blown up by the IRA because of refusal to pay protection money (so I understand).

And what you say simply seems to deflect responsibiity for Muslim actions by pointing to the flaws of others when, really, the voices of reason should set standards for their own societies.

So much shit is written about slavery - for a start black Africans were perfectly happy to round up fellow blacks, transport them and sell them, while treating them barbarously every step of the way just to fill their pathetic purses. They often keep women as sex slaves now as do people of many races but the one doesn't justify the other.

Nobody comes out of slave trading with any credit but there were whites treated as slaves by white families and white "masters" just the same and, besides, how the hell can we anyone take responsibity for events so long past?.

I don't know enough about the Crusades or Apartheid (SA still seems to be a mess) but I think every decent thinking Englishman believes that the Inquisition, the Holocaust and Ethnic Cleansing in various places were all actions which were a disgrace to the human race. Utterly vile and indefensible.

I have said that although I essentially try to follow the Commandments of the Bible I believe that all religion has in many ways had a negative and self-serving influence on mankind instead of what should have been a n influence for good and the betterment of all peoples in the world.

But what you say deflects not one iota from the horrors of Islamic society. The Kurdish slaughter, Saddam Hussein's catalogue of crime against fellow Iraqi's the Taliban's medieval attitudes to meting out justice, the indefensible treatment of women with honour killings, stonings and so on just because of some man made enforcement of some man-made ideals.

And never a word of criticism - always a simple comparative deflection.

I have no misgivings about voicing my shame at some of the "western" atrocities mentioned. Right up to date I think Tony Blair has blackened our nation's name with his, to my mind, illegal actions. I never voted for such a smug, lying, hypocritical and self-satisfied arsehole to run this country and I cannot stand his loathsome face. He certainly doesn't represent me in any shape or form.

I welcome Moseeds replies which, to a non Muslim, are enlightening whether I agree or not but might take a while to absorb.

Perhaps Moseeds or anyone else would enlighten me further because there are three other questions about the Muslim faith I have always wanted to be clear on and I have always felt the interpretation of Muslim doctrine seems so contradictory and inconsistent.

For instance I still don't know whether the Koran essentially champions peace and abhors violence or whether it encourages violence and in fact champions the sort of apparently mortal sins which those who claim to represent its words commit. Perhaps someone would help on that one too.

Anyway, the questions (which are asked of people who obviously know and out of genuine interest):

a) Can a Muslim reject his/her religion and move in another direction freely?

b) Can the children of Muslims or of Muslim/non Muslim parentage be brought up to follow any or no religion?

c) Can a Muslim sell his house to a non Muslim?

d) Are non-Muslims welcome to live in "Muslim" lands?

PS: What with wars already ongoing in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Israel, etc I see there's now a Holy War been declared by the Muslims in Somalia. Where next I wonder.

[Steven]

Thanks Steven ... but my question for sources was in relation to "honour killings" not deaths while in custody. I'm a bit confused

~ but that is a normal state of being for me

The Police are making assertions about others whilst ignoring their own "genocidal" tendancies. It undermines their claims about the murderous intent of others I think.

[Head Honcho]

Sources please gentlemen?

My research unearths that and nothing of more substance than that.

This is not proof, it is not evidence and it is not good arguement. The police believed that the Birmingham 6 were guilty too ~ I don't have an awful lot of faith in unsupported statements

Just one of many you'll find ont internet!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/honour_crimes/uk.shtml

[Daggers]

Just one of many you'll find ont internet!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/honour_crimes/uk.shtml

Unfortunately it is one of one, not many, not some, that I found on the internet citing any figures of note ~ and it shows that "honour killings" are far from "common" because there is no figure quoted beyond that which I threw up earlier - just that the police believe there to have been 12 such killings a year...a totally unprovable figure and not worthy of citing.

So that is one a month, even if you go with these figures.

Compare that now to the murder rate in the UK:

March 1999 - March 2000 = 760

March 2000 - March 2001 = 792

March 2001 - March 2002 = 891

March 2002 - March 2003 = 1,048 - (876)

This includes 172 attributed to Harold Shipman

March 2003 - March 2004 = 853

SOURCE

It shows that at best the "honour killing" rate stands at just around 1% of all murders committed in the UK year on year. Hardly commonplace I think.

IN fact, if you compare this to the governments estimation of 948,000 racially motivated incidents in 1995, the last period for which I can ascertain figures, one starts to see the irrelevancy of even bringing up the topic in the first place. SOURCE

Just because of one recent court case, the media and the public think they can bandy around such a term with ease and stigmatise an entire community. They can not, it is wrong.

All the time, while this debate continues at all levels of society one aspect remains a truism:

"Habibi, to live in Baghdad now is to live in a big prison," he told me recently, "You stay in your home, and that's it. You only go out when you must. So many are being killed daily, and you only hope that your day to die is not today."

There's life and death, all the rest is just bullshit.

[Head Honcho]

Unfortunately it is one of one, not many, not some, that I found on the internet citing any figures of note ~ and it shows that "honour killings" are far from "common" because there is no figure quoted beyond that which I threw up earlier - just that the police believe there to have been 12 such killings a year...a totally unprovable figure and not worthy of citing.

So that is one a month, even if you go with these figures.

Compare that now to the murder rate in the UK:

March 1999 - March 2000 = 760

March 2000 - March 2001 = 792

March 2001 - March 2002 = 891

March 2002 - March 2003 = 1,048 - (876)

This includes 172 attributed to Harold Shipman

March 2003 - March 2004 = 853

SOURCE

It shows that at best the "honour killing" rate stands at just around 1% of all murders committed in the UK year on year. Hardly commonplace I think.

IN fact, if you compare this to the governments estimation of 948,000 racially motivated incidents in 1995, the last period for which I can ascertain figures, one starts to see the irrelevancy of even bringing up the topic in the first place. SOURCE

Just because of one recent court case, the media and the public think they can bandy around such a term with ease and stigmatise an entire community. They can not, it is wrong.

All the time, while this debate continues at all levels of society one aspect remains a truism:

"Habibi, to live in Baghdad now is to live in a big prison," he told me recently, "You stay in your home, and that's it. You only go out when you must. So many are being killed daily, and you only hope that your day to die is not today."

There's life and death, all the rest is just bullshit.

Don't you think that one is too many? Your coming across as if your condoning them!

The only reason for honour killings being mentioned in the first place was due to Danfox not being aware of 16 year olds being executed in the UK and I was only highlighting that honour killings are in effect executions.