Who can speak Gaelic?

[Guest]

Of course the English would never dream of such a thing, as we expect everyone to speak our language anyway.

[Rincewind]

Why should everone speak English? I think languages are very important, cultually and regionlly for dialects. Why is when visitors come to this country they have to speak English yet when a lot of Brits when holidaying in places like Spain can't be arsed to learn the language. Unfortunately I struggle with Spanish even though I've been to evening classes to learn. But at least I've tried. I cannot understand the ones who go to places like Spain or thre Greek Islands and as soon as they arrive head for the British bars for the Stella and the cafes for fish and chips. When I'm abroad I like to experience the culture of that country. You receive respect and the 'natives' are more friendly towards you.

It may seem odd but the one language I've always wanted to learn is sign language yet I know no-one who is deaf. I just feel if I knew it then if some-one is signing and needs help I would be able to. Also I like to know if they talk behind my back.

[Lemon Harpic]

Anyway, as for questions. I read through what you had to say with interest, and I have to say, for someone so feverently anti-BNP and someone seemingly anti-state, you seem to be rather pro-English.

I'm pro-English because it is the world's most-spoken second language. Everyone can speak it, and with that comes exiting possibilities for pan-national dialogue that a language spoken by a handful of sheep-bothering villagers cannot offer.

If the world is to abolish it's language, ignore it's history, drop it's culture, stop celebrating it's roots and become all souless droids and post-modern units of hybrid culture whateverness - what tongue are we all to speak? Why should the world suddenly drop it's languages and adopt, as you seem to be suggesting, English as it's universal language?

I cannot understand the mentality of people who respond to posts without reading their content first.

I guess the problem is that by now people have come to expect rather strongly expressed controversial opinions from me, so that anything I write which is vaguely sensible and isn't expressed in a completely abrasive manner is ignored, because it doesn't seem to fit in with the preconceptions that exist about Lemon Harpic. Those two questions you asked are a prime example of this selective amnesia.

We should make no special efforts to retain or abolish languages. Languages have their own lifespans: They are born, they grow, they change and then they die. Gaelic is dying because it has outlived it's usefulness, and we should let it pass away peacefully. I'm always suspicious of people who try to fetishize languages like you do. A lot of very sinister motives often lie behind people who make manipulative appeals to 'roots and cultures', who cannot see that cultures naturally change with time, constantly evolving and eventually dying, who try to keep people in stasis. Culture is important, but it's not so important that it must be forever kept as it is. This is the empty lie that, er, lies behind idiotic nationalist parties like Plaid Cymru, the SNP and that lovely bunch of peaceful nationists Sinn Fein. Sometimes, it is important to see beyond the bullshit, even (especially!) when that bullshit gives you a warm, gooey feeling inside.

why not learn French? Or Polish? Or Hindi?

[Fez of Mahrez]

Cymru am byth! Pysgod a Sglodion! Dim a Josh Low!

[Dellyjo]

There are Gaelic programmes shown up here & the language does sound very similar to Welsh. The only word that I know is 'ceilidh'

[Finnegan]

I'm always suspicious of people who try to fetishize languages like you do. A lot of very sinister motives often lie behind people who make manipulative appeals to 'roots and cultures', who cannot see that cultures naturally change with time, constantly evolving and eventually dying, who try to keep people in stasis. Culture is important, but it's not so important that it must be forever kept as it is. This is the empty lie that, er, lies behind idiotic nationalist parties like Plaid Cymru, the SNP and that lovely bunch of peaceful nationists Sinn Fein. Sometimes, it is important to see beyond the bullshit, even (especially!) when that bullshit gives you a warm, gooey feeling inside.

You're mistaken, I read your posts and I read them carefully. The quoted extract, for example; I've read that. And I've re-read that. And I'll read it again in a moment, most likely - but I'm still failing to see anywhere in that ramble where you make an actual point and actually support it with anything resembling evidence. It's just a multi-syllabic venting that circles before dying.

Why do you think sustaining languages equates to some sinister and seedy tool of some evil 'others'?

What policies and portions of the Plaid manifesto do you find particularly idiotic and worthy of your condemning?

Which people are making "manipulative appeals to 'roots and cultures'"? And what about them is so manipulative?

Would you actually like to go on and post something vaguely intelligent now instead of hiding your obvious lack of information behind your obsession for long words and AS level in sociology? Because at the moment it just looks like you're trying to say something revolutionary and cleverly anti-establishment to appear oh-so-left-wing and oh-so-informed without really, actually saying anything at all.

[Hullfox]

I find it difficult as an Englishman to accept that the Welsh language has a future when the majority of it's countrymen are themselves not fluent in it.

And for the record,

1) I think the Welsh language regardless of it's heritage, culture etc is fascinating anyway.

2) I have just counted up the number of Welsh relatives that I have and it totals between 60 and 70. Not one of them is fluent in their mother tongue.

Personally I think it's sad and I hope as Finnegan says that it changes for the better.

[Webbo]

the thing that annoys me is that english nationalist are always portrayed as cranks and racists (which they often are) but scottish, welsh, irish nationalism is seen as a noble cause.

[Finnegan]

the thing that annoys me is that english nationalist are always portrayed as cranks and racists (which they often are) but scottish, welsh, irish nationalism is seen as a noble cause.

There are two reasons for this:

1. The BNP are seen as "English nationalists" when in fact, they aren't. Admittedly that's unfortunate.

2. In the eyes of most English people, England is a free state already. Most English people I know see England and Britain as all one entity. Let's be fair, it was the King of England that did the conquering to "unite" the isle! This means that English nationalist groups doesn't exist to free England from the overpowering political clutches of the Scots and Welsh.

Like I've said before, there are many different types of nationalism. It isn't just Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism that's seen as a "noble cause", Bretons, Catalans and Basque - to name a few - are all in the same brand of seperatist nationalists. Rebels, if you will, and rebels are always glorified. Nationalism in the context of the BNP is something very, very different. They're not rebelling against anything or trying to free their nation, they're trying to "protect" it (hah) from immigrants who will "taint" their traditional "Britishness". All quite ironic considering the English are, with the exception of perhaps the Americans, the most mongrel race on the planet in terms of immigrants and invasions and stuff*.

*I don't mean that in any sort of offensive way, and I'm not suggesting the Welsh are some puritan Celtic master race to which I belong. Though I'd make that clear.

[lcfcire]

i can speak irish mar tá mé ag foghlaim é i scoil

[Smudge]

[Finnegan]

Madness? Genius?

[Ultra]

There are two reasons for this:

1. The BNP are seen as "English nationalists" when in fact, they aren't. Admittedly that's unfortunate.

2. In the eyes of most English people, England is a free state already. Most English people I know see England and Britain as all one entity. Let's be fair, it was the King of England that did the conquering to "unite" the isle! This means that English nationalist groups doesn't exist to free England from the overpowering political clutches of the Scots and Welsh.

Oh but they do. At the moment, though they're too fragmented to make any headway in the current political climate. A lot of them gravitate towards the Conservative Party anyway.

Recent polls suggest that a lot of English people would be delighted to see both the Scots and Welsh gain independence, presumably in order to bring their dream of a "pure" (ie bigoted, narrow and reactionary) England ever closer.

Like I've said before, there are many different types of nationalism. It isn't just Welsh, Scottish and Irish nationalism that's seen as a "noble cause", Bretons, Catalans and Basque - to name a few - are all in the same brand of seperatist nationalists. Rebels, if you will, and rebels are always glorified. Nationalism in the context of the BNP is something very, very different. They're not rebelling against anything or trying to free their nation, they're trying to "protect" it (hah) from immigrants who will "taint" their traditional "Britishness". All quite ironic considering the English are, with the exception of perhaps the Americans, the most mongrel race on the planet in terms of immigrants and invasions and stuff*.

*I don't mean that in any sort of offensive way, and I'm not suggesting the Welsh are some puritan Celtic master race to which I belong. Though I'd make that clear.

I don't have a problem with any racial or national group who seek to preserve their own identity, but what I do have issues with is when such groups try to claim that they are somehow "superior" to anyone else. And I wouldn't be so naive to believe that the BNP and their ilk are the only ones guilty of this.

[Finnegan]

I'm not well versed in Scottish nationalism and what I know of Irish nationalism paints it as slightly different to our own in Wales. But I can say with some fair confidence that modern Welsh nationalism is, for the most part, not concerned with the preservation of some superior Welsh race. Obviously language and culture have formed a strong core in what has driven seperatist politics in Wales. But modern issues surrounding incidents such as Tryweryn and the handling of the Aberfan disaster have all been politically motivated. About putting governship of Wales in the hands of Welsh residents and constituencies and seperating from Britiain and the British (English) parliament. Which isn't really surprising in the wake of Thatcher / Major's reigns when you consider how much of Wales is made up by the working classes and the proportions of those below the poverty line.

In some ways similar to the Irish republican risings, in many cases it's as much a socialist / working class rising as it is a nationalist one.

[The People's Hero]

Ble mae'r plant?

[Webbo]

Recent polls suggest that a lot of English people would be delighted to see both the Scots and Welsh gain independence, presumably in order to bring their dream of a "pure" (ie bigoted, narrow and reactionary) England ever closer.

i don't think thats the reason at all. a lot of english people feel ripped off by the scots and welsh. the labour party is subsidising services in wales and scotland that don't exist in england ( no tuition fees, free care for the elderly etc.) with english taxpayers money to keep themselves in power.

[Smudge]

Madness? Genius?

Diolch ..................Finneman

I used to work with two Welsh guys who tought me to say

• Lannfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
  
• Tulch leen bob sise (Arseholes to all Englishmen)
  
• Ger y gravvy de borse ( Go scratch)
  

Sorry about spelling, ah well back to my cell.

[stez]

i don't think thats the reason at all. a lot of english people feel ripped off by the scots and welsh. the labour party is subsidising services in wales and scotland that don't exist in england ( no tuition fees, free care for the elderly etc.) with english taxpayers money to keep themselves in power.

pay back for nicking scotlands oil i suppose

[Daggers]

i don't think thats the reason at all. a lot of english people feel ripped off by the scots and welsh. the labour party is subsidising services in wales and scotland that don't exist in england ( no tuition fees, free care for the elderly etc.) with english taxpayers money to keep themselves in power.

...and for taking all of the coal & gold from Wales...then sending in the police to beat the shit out of them!

[Webbo]

...and for taking all of the coal & gold from Wales...then sending in the police to beat the shit out of them!

i didn't realise that we got that for free i thought that they were paid for it like everybody else. as for the oil, i think you'll find that if scotland became independent half the oil would be in officially english waters.

[Daggers]

i didn't realise that we got that for free i thought that they were paid for it like everybody else.

There you go then, learn something everyday eh?!

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

i can speak irish mar tá mé ag foghlaim é i scoil

Conas atá tu?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

The issue is not nationalism per se, but language. There are two ways of viewing language. Either you see it as a tool, something we use to exchange ideas and information with other people, or you get all dewy-eyed and think of language as an important, sometimes even defining, part of a person's identity.

Essentially where we differ, I don't think it's regressive at all to view language as a defining factor. It makes sense to want to be able to speak the language of your forebears - I even did Anglo-Saxon for a time.

[Finnegan]

...and for taking all of the coal & gold from Wales...then sending in the police to beat the shit out of them!

You forgot flooding our villages and culturual havens to build reservoirs sending water to English cities.

[Lemon Harpic]

Why do you think sustaining languages equates to some sinister and seedy tool of some evil 'others'?

What an accurate summation of my views.

Open your eyes, just a little, and you will be forced to see that sometimes the people behind all that empty rhetoric and all those almost meaningless buzzwords have less-than-pure motives. That's all I said and I defy you to disagree with it.

The problem is the laziness involved. It is held as some sort of axiom that "culture" is always good, that it should always be preserved. Nobody ever asks why. Nobody really asks what culture is, anyway. Nobody ever asks if it wouldn't be better if this "culture" thing were allowed to evolve, to stand and fall on it's own merits rather than making special efforts to 'protect' it. There is a real lack of critical thinking evident behind the emotive language of nationalist movements.

The danger of this lack of critical thinking extends beyond just a few people making moronic statements such as "I'm proud of my language" (If that is all you have to feel proud about, it reflects a real lack of achievement). The fact that people will find 'vote for me 'cos I is Welsh, innit?' a convincing enough reason to elect someone to rule their lives is at once sinister, saddening and hilarious (because I don't live in Wales). At the extreme end of the spectrum of those who love buzzwords like 'culture' and 'history' a little too much are laughable retards like the SNLA, not-quite-so-funny idiots like the BNP and about-as-funny-as-Jim-Davidson nutjobs like Combat 18.

What policies and portions of the Plaid manifesto do you find particularly idiotic and worthy of your condemning?

Generally, the problem with Plaid and all other nationalist parties is that they are just as self-serving and incompetent as any other politicians, but they seek to obscure this by getting the population all dewy-eyed using emotive buzzwords. Yes, this is what all other politicians and political parties seek to do, using buzzwords like 'economic growth' to replace 'culture' and 'tradition'. I guess what annoys me is that even though these politicians and their parties have constantly and consistently failed us, people are still willing to give them a chance, or make the mistake of thinking 'yeah, but if we only elected this set of politicians...'

More specifically to the Plaid manifesto, I notice that they seek to preserve the Welsh language. Any penny spent trying to preserve a moribund language is a penny that could have been spent on schools and hospitals. If people want to speak Welsh, then let them, if people find Welsh useless and anachronistic then don't waste taxpayer's money telling them they're wrong. It's arrogant and nannying.

Which people are making "manipulative appeals to 'roots and cultures'"? And what about them is so manipulative?

Virtually anyone who makes appeals to roots and cultures is being manipulative to a certain extent.

When you try, as you have done on this thread, to link concepts like tradition, language and culture with concepts like poetry, beauty, and soul, that is a deliberate (and mostly successful) attempt to win the forum over to your way of thinking. You know very well that very few FTers will question these links at all, as most of them have already learned romanticize the empty rhetoric of nationalism beforehand.

They have learned this because, although they have not been successful in gaining too many votes, nationalists have been successful in brainwashing the population into believing that to disrespect other peoples -or even their own- cultures is, y'know, well... it's just bad. This places all cultures beyond critical analysis. Even if a given culture is misogynistic, racist, repressive, or whatever, people have been conditioned to turn a blind eye, to only see the positives. As an example of this, go back and see the reaction when I pointed out in a different thread that Scotland is as much (in fact, more) about racism, alcoholism and wife beating as it is about Highland dancing, hills and watching men in skirts tossing thier cabers. People's learned reaction to issues of national and cultural pride can easily override the serious issues that plague a country. Culture is good, criticism is bad.

Would you actually like to go on and post something vaguely intelligent now instead of hiding your obvious lack of information behind your obsession for long words and AS level in sociology? Because at the moment it just looks like you're trying to say something revolutionary and cleverly anti-establishment to appear oh-so-left-wing and oh-so-informed without really, actually saying anything at all.

Welsh is a 'beautiful' language, is it?

Apart from German and Klingon, name one language that is less 'beautiful' than Welsh.

And I'm the one whose words are meaningless?