How many more before the nation cries "enough"?

[Guest]

Even the Swan and Rushes is up for sale!

That's got bugger all to do with any economic crisis or political intervention; it's because the current landlord's partner wants to move back to Gloucester, or some such place.

[Hullfox]

one of the few sources of entertainment in inland Wales is the pub

Indeed and if the chapels close down too what will the poor Welsh people do? It must be terrible having so few sources of entertainment.

[The People's Hero]

I might buy the S&R.

[AoWW]

I might buy the S&R.

Wanna partner? (of the business kind!)

[Corky]

I might buy the S&R.

Couldn't you resurrect my local pub?

[AoWW]

Couldn't you resurrect my local pub?

Erm, depends on which your local pub is. If it's the one I'm thinking of it needs bulldozing.

[Corky]

Erm, depends on which your local pub is. If it's the one I'm thinking of it needs bulldozing.

It's already been demolished dear

[AoWW]

It's already been demolished dear

Someone clearly beat me to it. You don't drink anyway.

[Corky]

Someone clearly beat me to it. You don't drink anyway.

I know, but I'd rather have the pub than a block of flats. Anyway, do you know which pub it was?

[AoWW]

I know, but I'd rather have the pub than a block of flats. Anyway, do you know which pub it was?

Duke of Connaught? Dunno if that's particularly near where you live though. The Queen Charlotte's had a chequered past (I remember it when it was Dodgers Karaoke Bar!) but I thought it had improved recently? Somewhere else?

[Jon the Hat]

The pub business is a tricky one. It has become commercial on a large scale which means that what used to support and Landlord's salary (often sod all) now has to support a manageer and post a profit for the owners which beats other investments as well. Many pubs simpoly do not have that kind of trade.

The Government has also caused a lot of problems by not addressing the problem of price differential between the on and off trade. Frankly you should not be paying any more tax in absolute terms on a pint in the pub than on a can of lager from Tesco (adjusted for volume).

That said, if a community wants to keep it's pub, then a) the pub must be a good one to appeal to customers, and b) the customers must support what they want to keep. Many people visit a few times a year and are then up in arms when it closes. We would not expect the same of many other businesses. Again the cost of drinks has made it harder and harder to support.

[Corky]

Duke of Connaught? Dunno if that's particularly near where you live though. The Queen Charlotte's had a chequered past (I remember it when it was Dodgers Karaoke Bar!) but I thought it had improved recently? Somewhere else?

Nope, it actually has connections to Leicester.

I've given it away now.

[AoWW]

Nope, it actually has connections to Leicester.

I've given it away now.

Ah, the good 'ole Earl of Leicester.

I assume the Fat Cat is still going strong? Haven't been in there in ages. A mate of mine used to live just round the corner.

[Smudge]

Oh how I hark for the days of Empire (and not the magazine). None of this mattered when we had a captive market to sell our shoddy goods to at ridiculous prices. I don't know about blaming Gordon Brown, it's blooming brown people and their annoying insistence on self determination that's really done us all up the bottoms. Curse them and their work ethic.

Victoria would never have stood for it

I'm not sure what shoddy goods you are referring to unless as my grandfather put it "Anything manufactured in Birmingham" a place of derision by his account.

Since the so called Empire was at an end by the end of the First World War it's hard to define what goods were being exported but in the shadow of that Empire I remember Britain being famed for quality for raw products such as iron ore, coal, wool, kaolinite (china clay). From which we derived steel making, shipbuilding, any amount of other steam driven engine products. In Leicester alone we had the best of hosiery and shoe making manufacturers. Sheffield plate and cutlery were and still are renown for quality as is/was the finest of bone china as made in the potteries. I could go on but hopefully I you get my point. The Crystal Palace was built to showcase the British wares and was clearly something they were very proud of. Today is a different era and along with the robber barons greed and the abuse of Union practices, we are all suffering from the lack of a manufacturing base.

[Hullfox]

Oh how I hark for the days of Empire (and not the magazine). None of this mattered when we had a captive market to sell our shoddy goods to at ridiculous prices. I don't know about blaming Gordon Brown, it's blooming brown people and their annoying insistence on self determination that's really done us all up the bottoms. Curse them and their work ethic.

Victoria would never have stood for it

I'm not sure what shoddy goods you are referring to unless as my grandfather put it "Anything manufactured in Birmingham" a place of derision by his account.

Since the so called Empire was at an end by the end of the First World War it's hard to define what goods were being exported but in the shadow of that Empire I remember Britain being famed for quality for raw products such as iron ore, coal, wool, kaolinite (china clay). From which we derived steel making, shipbuilding, any amount of other steam driven engine products. In Leicester alone we had the best of hosiery and shoe making manufacturers. Sheffield plate and cutlery were and still are renown for quality as is/was the finest of bone china as made in the potteries. I could go on but hopefully I you get my point. The Crystal Palace was built to showcase the British wares and was clearly something they were very proud of. Today is a different era and along with the robber barons greed and the abuse of Union practices, we are all suffering from the lack of a manufacturing base.

Anybody else hear a whooosh?

[Corky]

Ah, the good 'ole Earl of Leicester.

I assume the Fat Cat is still going strong? Haven't been in there in ages. A mate of mine used to live just round the corner.

I think so

[Smudge]

Anybody else hear a whooosh?

Yes me I missed the humour sorry!

[Guest]

The pub business is a tricky one. It has become commercial on a large scale which means that what used to support and Landlord's salary (often sod all) now has to support a manageer and post a profit for the owners which beats other investments as well. Many pubs simpoly do not have that kind of trade.

The Government has also caused a lot of problems by not addressing the problem of price differential between the on and off trade. Frankly you should not be paying any more tax in absolute terms on a pint in the pub than on a can of lager from Tesco (adjusted for volume).

That said, if a community wants to keep it's pub, then a) the pub must be a good one to appeal to customers, and b) the customers must support what they want to keep. Many people visit a few times a year and are then up in arms when it closes. We would not expect the same of many other businesses. Again the cost of drinks has made it harder and harder to support.

Nails and head spring to mind.

On top of that, I believe that the way society has changed has also had an effect. The village pub used to be the epicentre, however in this day and age, where people have moved away from the villages and families have replaced them, with the advent of the internet, and with people having the choice of 3 million tv channels, there is no longer the need to go and catch up with friends in the pub any more.

Having said that, The Globe, in town, was heaving this afternoon!

[stez]

Nails and head spring to mind.

On top of that, I believe that the way society has changed has also had an effect. The village pub used to be the epicentre, however in this day and age, where people have moved away from the villages and families have replaced them, with the advent of the internet, and with people having the choice of 3 million tv channels, there is no longer the need to go and catch up with friends in the pub any more.

Having said that, The Globe, in town, was heaving this afternoon!

circa '94/'95/'96

[Thracian]

"I believe that the way society has changed has also had an effect."

Has it changed? Or has it been changed?

It's not just village pubs that have been decimated. Town and City pubs are the same with few exceptions.

The breathalyser, the huge tax on alcohol which pushed the price of drinks up to ridiculous proportions, the smoking ban all represent penalties on the pub trade which have eroded their trade ON TOP of other factors mentioned.

My sister was worth a wage packet to a publican before the smoking ban but I don't think she's had a single drink in a pub since.

But two bottles of red at home at night - for herself and her friends - is not unusual and that represents around £3,650 a year to the publican even at off licence prices.

She also stopped playing for the darts team or the pool team and I'm fairly sure both have since packed in, representing another few bob not reaching the landlord's pocket. And so on....

If the Government chose to attack any trade or profession in the way it has attacked the pubs then it would ruin them just as surely.

In many ways that's exactly what it does, albeit it on a smaller scale.

[Fez of Mahrez]

At the end of one of Thracian's rambling monologues, I always expect to see the words "but I'm afraid I was very, very drunk"

[Guest]

Has it changed? Or has it been changed?

It's not just village pubs that have been decimated. Town and City pubs are the same with few exceptions.

The breathalyser, the huge tax on alcohol which pushed the price of drinks up to ridiculous proportions, the smoking ban all represent penalties on the pub trade which have eroded their trade ON TOP of other factors mentioned.

My sister was worth a wage packet to a publican before the smoking ban but I don't think she's had a single drink in a pub since.

But two bottles of red at home at night - for herself and her friends - is not unusual and that represents around £3,650 a year to the publican even at off licence prices.

She also stopped playing for the darts team or the pool team and I'm fairly sure both have since packed in, representing another few bob not reaching the landlord's pocket. And so on....

If the Government chose to attack any trade or profession in the way it has attacked the pubs then it would ruin them just as surely.

In many ways that's exactly what it does, albeit it on a smaller scale.

The breathalyser has been around for years. "Back in the day..." it wasn't a problem, as people walked to the village pub. It's only since people have been more likely to move away that drink driving became an issue, and this has only been since cars have been more accessible to the public. We could, of course, have helped prolong the licensing trade by making it harder for people to own their cars, this would be at the expense of the motor industry.

For the record, the current drink/drive legislation is the Road Traffic Act 1988. From memory, I don't think that it was the Labour government who were responsible for this, although I could be wrong.

As for the smoking ban, that is a convenient excuse. Pubs were regularly shutting down before the introduction of the ban, and most pubs do accommodate smokers. If the smoking ban is the sole reason a person has stopped going to the pub, then it's about time they picked their toys up and grew up a bit.

At the end of the day, if it is cheaper and easier to drink in the comfort of your own home, "chatting" to mates online, why would you need to go to the pub?

[Bellend Sebastian]

I'm sure that all of the factors that Thracian has mentioned have had an effect on the viability of pubs to some extent, but why the traditional British pub seems to have faired worse in the face of these challenges than the horrible, soulless, willy puller bars that seem to have taken over is a bit more of a mystery. I've said before that the demise of the pub mirrors the demise of the community (in that people move around a lot more with their jobs, are less likely to know their neighbours than in times gone by, etc etc) but that's just a vague theory of mine that I have no proof to back it with whatsoever

[Fez of Mahrez]

At the end of the day, if it is cheaper and easier to drink in the comfort of your own home, "chatting" to mates online, why would you need to go to the pub?

[Thracian]

The breathalyser has been around for years. "Back in the day..." it wasn't a problem, as people walked to the village pub. It's only since people have been more likely to move away that drink driving became an issue, and this has only been since cars have been more accessible to the public. We could, of course, have helped prolong the licensing trade by making it harder for people to own their cars, this would be at the expense of the motor industry.

For the record, the current drink/drive legislation is the Road Traffic Act 1988. From memory, I don't think that it was the Labour government who were responsible for this, although I could be wrong.

As for the smoking ban, that is a convenient excuse. Pubs were regularly shutting down before the introduction of the ban, and most pubs do accommodate smokers. If the smoking ban is the sole reason a person has stopped going to the pub, then it's about time they picked their toys up and grew up a bit.

At the end of the day, if it is cheaper and easier to drink in the comfort of your own home, "chatting" to mates online, why would you need to go to the pub?

I have not suggested that any one thing is the "sole reason" for the decline of the pub trade. There have sometimes been social factors but there has also been a consistent and multi-pronged attack by the Government which has, for a long, long time, been the Labour party.

Whoever introduced the breathalyser Labour could easily have got rid of it if they thought it appropriate. Just as they could have abandoned the excessive taxation of alcohol and the ban on smoking.