How many more before the nation cries "enough"?

[stez]

britain is a nation of over educated workshy layabouts, illegal immigrants and single parent scroungers

that's the trouble and the sooner people start listening to enoch powell, the better

you'll be pleased to hear that i'm far from over educated!

[Zingari]

you'll be pleased to hear that i'm far from over educated!

you'll be a single parent illegal immigrant then ( probably with some disease and coming to abuse out health service )

[Zingari]

all together now nation ,

the chorus

Enough is enough is enough

I can't go on, I can't go on, no more no

enough is enough is enough

I want him out, I want him out that door now

[Jon the Hat]

In fact had the capitalist system been left to it's own devices we would likely not have got into quite such a mess. Democratic party legislation created the sub-prime bubble in the US by forcing banks to lend to people who could not afford it in the long run, thus restricting market forces. They also underwrote Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which was key to those organisations selling the packages debt which eventually spiralled to cause such a lack of transparency. Obviously there were plenty of other idiots and greedy fools along the way.

The UK consumer has been spending beyond their means for many years, partly driven by unsustainable cheap products from China and other parts of the world, and due to the housing bubble and debt availability. The "money" from the good times has gone into our pension funds as much as anyone else's pocket and these have now dropped in value accordingly reflecting the fact that it was never really there.

Business which offer the least value or offer only non essentials will always struggle in a downturn, and the likes of Woolworths were screwed with excessive debts from the inception of their current company structure. Spending will drop as the scared masses sensibly pay off debts and save their money.

The greatest folly of the last 10 years has been Nu Labour's failure to save while times were good. We are in the worst possible position going in to this recession. We have a bloated Public sector which adds nothing to the economy. Public sector pay and pensions are far better than the private sector which pays for it. Time for change. We need a Tory government with an agenda to cut public spending drastically to achieve a low tax economy which allows companies to thrive and provide jobs.

[breadandcheese]

As any economics student will tell you, booms and busts are part of the capitalist system, something New Labour and ALL of its right-wing critics conveniently ignored for a long time. Brown at least shows some signs of being able to respond to the global economic crisis, something none of the other parties appear able to do.

I need to take issue with your last sentence.

Whilst this is a global recession, the Labour government (and by that, I mean Gordon Brown as he controlled the treasury since 1997 and indeed was the most powerful chancellor in the post-war era in terms of his say in other departments spending plans) has put our country in the worst shape of any other G8 Nation. We will suffer most from this global downturn. Whilst Gordon couldn't stop a global downturn, he could have put our country in a better position. For some reason, Mr Brown seemed to believe his own hyperbole that he had structurally transformed our economy, when in fact we were just in the midst of a good old fashioned credit boom and property bubble.

For that reason, I am very sceptical that he truly understands the situation that he helped to cause, less he is the man who is able to put it right.

The regulatory system of the city was a structure he put in place. It failed.

Admittedly, these are all looking at what he did wrong up to this point and it can be argued that actually don't necessarily add to the debate as it is about looking at how to move out of the recessionary crisis. So lets crtique the government's current approach.

- Brown is trying to spend his way out of the crisis. In my opinion, this is morally repugnant, saddling future generations (by that I mean our unborn children, grand-children and possibly great grand-children) with debt obligations that has to be paid from their future income.

- The VAT cut has proved to be what we all saw at the time of declaration. It was an expensive move, for very little benefit. Far more sensible would have been to raise the tax threshold at the lowest level. Instead this Labour government chose the worst possible option and in doing so added another couple of billion to our national debt.

- Recapitalising the banks and urging them to lend back to normal levels. Recapitalising the banks absolutely had to be done, but what is normal levels of lending? We've had statements such as back to 2007 levels. Well 2007 levels of credit were not sustainable in the first place. For a government to recapitalise a bank, then urge it to lend as we are starting a recession is a foolish and contradictory policy, asking banks to increase their exposure to bad debts that will ultimately lead them to needing more recapitalisation and thus more taxpayer money.

- Related to the circuitous policy of "forcing" banks to lend more and increased recapitalisation, we could be taking more bad debts on to the public finance books, which could lead to increasing question marks about our sovereign debt, with investors less likely to accept government bonds with such low interest rates (leading then to higher interest rates). This would then have the affect of crowding out private investment when the shoots of recovery are in place. Already, the credit default swaps (insurance against default) on our government bonds are on a par with Portugal.

- Not forgetting that our Gordon Brown's spending plans over the coming year are all based on hopelessly inaccurate and overly optimistic figures so we're going to be far worse in debt than the shocking figures that Labour bandied about at the pre-budget report.

All in all, the current government policy to coping with this recession is a joke at best and I do not support it.

[Jon the Hat]

All in all, the current government policy to coping with this recession is a joke at best and I do not support it.

Exactly. The fact that Brown's poll rating has actually improved just goes to show how utterly anaware a large chunk of the population are of the issues. We can only hope the same group follow Thracian's example and choose not to vote.

[Trav Le Bleu]

So, what you're trying to say is, times are hard?

[Webbo]

<Brilliant summary>

<Brilliant summary>

Two of the most intelligent posts I've read on here in a long while.

[act smiley]

In fact had the capitalist system been left to it's own devices we would likely not have got into quite such a mess. Democratic party legislation created the sub-prime bubble in the US by forcing banks to lend to people who could not afford it in the long run, thus restricting market forces. They also underwrote Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which was key to those organisations selling the packages debt which eventually spiralled to cause such a lack of transparency. Obviously there were plenty of other idiots and greedy fools along the way.

As far as I'm aware the legislation didn't force them to loan the money, only to base the offers on the money people had available and not on social factors like where the people lived etc. and that if two people had the same amount of money coming in they should be getting the same deal?

We need a Tory government with an agenda to cut public spending drastically to achieve a low tax economy which allows companies to thrive and provide jobs.

Er, whats that going to do other than create mass unemployment as suddenly half the public sector lose their jobs?

[Daggers]

Free market economics was such a resounding success in the 80's I'm delighted to hear people calling for its return.

All we need is a mad, evil witch to steer it all through and a bunch of self-serving, corrupt lackeys to help her.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

One of the best moves I've seen in all this buisness was the Irish's Goverments master stroke to declare they would 'guarantee all deposits made to Irish Banks'

What genius. With that a load of people transferred their money to Irish Banks, giving each a better liquidity level, and thus taking away the problem for the Goverment.

What a wonderful double bluff!

Moving forward, it will be interesting to see what happens when Obama actually gets in office. I feel he might inspire a collective 'good feeling' not only in America but across the World which allows the World to come out from this doom and gloom.

Personally I feel half of the problem is with wide spread media coverage and 'expert opinion' given. People react exactly as predicted by the Media - they have such a hold over people it's worrying.

I'm not saying the media should lie, but reporting has become so negative recently. Why not add in a couple of sucess stories within the buisness world as no doubt there are some. (eg, I hear Poundstrecher is doing great buisness again!)

[Webbo]

Personally I feel half of the problem is with wide spread media coverage and 'expert opinion' given. People react exactly as predicted by the Media - they have such a hold over people it's worrying.

I'm not saying the media should lie, but reporting has become so negative recently. Why not add in a couple of sucess stories within the buisness world as no doubt there are some. (eg, I hear Poundstrecher is doing great buisness again!)

Where did you hear that? It Wasn't the media was it?

[Hullfox]

As any economics student will tell you, booms and busts are part of the capitalist system, something New Labour and ALL of its right-wing critics conveniently ignored for a long time. Brown at least shows some signs of being able to respond to the global economic crisis, something none of the other parties appear able to do.

The bulk of your post was reasoned and well founded but your comments above don't wash.

Brown has claimed for years that he had got rid of boom and bust and after over 10 years of taking the plaudits when things go wrong he claims like you do that it is a global problem and suddenly out of his remit. Of course the world has similar problems but he has to take the blame for some of our position. As for none of the parties being able to respond, it is difficult for any opposition party to make a real difference at any time when they do not hold the power.

[Finnegan]

Furthermore while the mines closed the mining areas were redeveloped and were the better for it because there was never any sense in one area relying on one type of industry.

A good majority of my family (and the rest of Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil) would probably readily slap you for that sort of ignorance.

[Miquel The Work Geordie]

ENOUGH!

[Jon the Hat]

As far as I'm aware the legislation didn't force them to loan the money, only to base the offers on the money people had available and not on social factors like where the people lived etc. and that if two people had the same amount of money coming in they should be getting the same deal?

Er, whats that going to do other than create mass unemployment as suddenly half the public sector lose their jobs?

We spent 10 years screwing things up, it is not going to be an overnight fix. Generally though your income gets spent in one of 2 ways. The government takes it, charges an overhead for taking it, and spends it wasting a chunk into the bargain. This creates public sector jobs. OR they don't take it and you spend it on goods and servcies you want, rewarding those who provide those goods and services for their skills or foresight, and this provides growth and more jobs. The first is the socialist approach the second the Conservative. One is expensive and controlling, the other lean and libertarian. You choose.

[Thracian]

Ultra: "Labour weren't (and aren't) opposed to council house sales as an option. The points of issue were the massive discounts offered to buyers, together with the ban on reinvesting what proceeds there were into new building. This resulted in a chronic housing shortage which will take decades to reverse, with all the social consequences that ensue from that."

========

Labour could have offered tenants the right to buy their houses - they didn't. As for what you describe as a chronic housing shortage, how does that possibly equate with Labour continuing to open the UK doors to ever more immigrants, well knowing about the housing shortage and that it will make the shortage even more acute and create yet more social problems?

========

Ultra: "Not even the Tories would come out these days with this kind of crap. As many people I know will tell you, many of those areas were left to rot. Many shops and businesses went down the tube because local communities had no money to spend in them. But none of the rabid-right papers, from which you so extensively quote, gave a flying fcuk."

=========

Of course shops and businesses in mining communities went bust. The whole local economy was interconnected and would have been similarly affected in any downturn as you well know including when the mines finally stopped being economical to run which was fast becoming the case in many instances, as, again, you well know.

No individual would willingly run a business uneconomically or have it staffed beyond its necessary capacity. The health problems were real too, not imaginary, and getting people out of mines and into the tourist industry, outdoor work, leisure industries etc was often the best thing that could happen to those people as many quietly admitted it when they weren't with their traditionally socialist or even Scargilite pals.

I cannot speak for Wales but the Coalville area went from being almost wholly reliant on the coal industry to an area with much more diversified employment, several significant tourist venues, the National Forest with its leisure and associated work opportunities, not to mention various industrial estates represented by businesses that had nothing to do with the declining industry that was coal mining.

=======

Ultra: "There were no opportunities there, and even if there had been, the poor state of their health would have meant they'd have probably been unable to take advantage of them anyway.

Your memory is playing tricks on you. There were often more than THREE MILLION unemployed, many of them with degrees and other skills, during the Tory years. They could have been usefully employed putting their talents to productive use, but the government of the time treated them with contempt.

As any economics student will tell you, booms and busts are part of the capitalist system, something New Labour and ALL of its right-wing critics conveniently ignored for a long time. Brown at least shows some signs of being able to respond to the global economic crisis, something none of the other parties appear able to do."

==========

I lived for five years in a village very close to the mining community of Bagworth and did plenty of work around Coalville/Ashby so I know from personal experience that people readjusted, used their severance pay, and took on new types of work of the kind that wouldn't worsen their health and which they could do even if they remained poorly.

There were 3.6 million unemployed during the worst part of Thatcher's administration - many coming from ailing industries which had been brought to their knees by overmanning and trades union militancy and obstinacy.

The country's businesses needed streamlining to remain competitive and so started the trend towards smaller, more varied companies rather than unwieldy, inefficient monsters that were so often the source of industrial unrest and the sort of Red Robbo and Derek Hatton militancy that made it impossible for managers to run them properly. The small business trend has continued as shown by the following:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/employment/index.htm

Taken as a whole and bearing in mind the number of part time jobs in today's workforces I cannot see that things have changed dramatically in terms of the numbers employed.

But the numbers of unemployed are growing alarmingly again now and what makes it worse today is that we have dwindling resources, we're becoming more reliant on others for energy, we have a leader who borrows like there's no tomorrow and we've sold half of the gold which once made the £ such a solid currency and which gave us credibility.

All the above makes us desperately vulnerable. In fact I feel this nation has been sold right down the river by incompetents who really seem to have no plausible plan B for geniuinely reinvigourating our economy.

With no area relying on just one industry, you would have expected adjustment and survival in a crisis to be easier. Sadly that's not looking like the case and for a whole lot of reasons that have little or nothing to do with the standard of business management.

As ever, billions of pounds have been wasted by this Government in a multitude of ways while our production industries have been decimated.

That money could have been far better spent on developing new industries, new technologies and on helping to provide proper jobs in a host of productive arenas.

We all know that production levels in this country are at their lowest levels since records began but let me give some other examples or blatant waste so that people can really think about whether this Government are the least bit suitable for purpose...

Let's take Labour's flagship, the NHS:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...der-Labour.html

Or how about the Wars in Iraq/Afghanistan?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/nov/26/i...ence-budget-mod

As for the gold we sold in 2002, it represented half of the nation's reserves. The low price we sold at was embarrassing and the more so for the fact that the then Chancellor Gordon Brown ignored all advice not to sell.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/polit...ves-444929.html

The above article refers to 2007 but the price has soared since then so the real cost of that decision was far higher.

ttp://goldnews.bullionvault.com/gold_thin_holiday_122920082

Just to give an example dealers are currently buying gold at close to £2.25p a gram more than they were two months ago!

Doubtless it will ease back in time but it has a huge distance to fall before reaching 2002 levels.

And that, perhaps more than anything, reflects how serious the current situation is considered to be.

It really cannot go on.

Where is Brown's inspired response? His dynamic leadership? Convince me Ultra. Please.

Cos very little of what I've talked about has come from right wing stalwarts like the Daily Express.

[Jon the Hat]

Eloquent ripping apart of the myth of New Labour

Well said. I am gobsmacked by people's inability to see what a mess Labour have made.

And for those who support Labour... How many years will you believe the hype before you think they have had sufficient time to demonstrate their failure to deliver? 10 years and they have made just about everything worse.

[davieG]

Well said. I am gobsmacked by people's inability to see what a mess Labour have made.

And for those who support Labour... How many years will you believe the hype before you think they have had sufficient time to demonstrate their failure to deliver? 10 years and they have made just about everything worse.

But can you see what a mess the Torys have made, you have to decide which is the lesser of the two evils - I've tried and decided there is no lesser they are as bad/good as each other, thinking only of self promotion.

[Jon the Hat]

But can you see what a mess the Torys have made, you have to decide which is the lesser of the two evils - I've tried and decided there is no lesser they are as bad/good as each other, thinking only of self promotion.

Personally I detest the removal of freedoms and the move towards big government which Labour have delivered. I do not think that you can really say that the Tories have ever created anything like the mess that we are in now. I think Maggie modernised the country in a way that was necessary but caused a lot of short term pain for a lot of people.

Edit: I will also add that at 31 most of my voting life has been under labour so clearly my knowledge of life under the Tories will not be the same as others.

[l444ry]

Personally I detest the removal of freedoms and the move towards big government which Labour have delivered. I do not think that you can really say that the Tories have ever created anything like the mess that we are in now. I think Maggie modernised the country in a way that was necessary but caused a lot of short term pain for a lot of people.

Edit: I will also add that at 31 most of my voting life has been under labour so clearly my knowledge of life under the Tories will not be the same as others.

There you have it, Jon. You'll not remember the following either then-:

You've never had it so good (Macmillan).

The Barber Boom.

The Economic Miracle (Lawson).

[Jon the Hat]

[/b]

There you have it, Jon. You'll not remember the following either then-:

You've never had it so good (McMillan).

The Barber Boom.

The Economic Miracle (Lawson).

History does not change the fact that Labour have made a right mess and are now denying it is their fault having taken the plaudits for the boom. Half of them look like a bunch of kids playing at politics with the likes of Milliband, Balls and Smith. And frankly if we are going to have people who have little experience of government then lets get the Tories in with some fresh ideas.

[The People's Hero]

In fact had the capitalist system been left to it's own devices we would likely not have got into quite such a mess. Democratic party legislation created the sub-prime bubble in the US by forcing banks to lend to people who could not afford it in the long run, thus restricting market forces. They also underwrote Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac which was key to those organisations selling the packages debt which eventually spiralled to cause such a lack of transparency. Obviously there were plenty of other idiots and greedy fools along the way.

The UK consumer has been spending beyond their means for many years, partly driven by unsustainable cheap products from China and other parts of the world, and due to the housing bubble and debt availability. The "money" from the good times has gone into our pension funds as much as anyone else's pocket and these have now dropped in value accordingly reflecting the fact that it was never really there.

Business which offer the least value or offer only non essentials will always struggle in a downturn, and the likes of Woolworths were screwed with excessive debts from the inception of their current company structure. Spending will drop as the scared masses sensibly pay off debts and save their money.

The greatest folly of the last 10 years has been Nu Labour's failure to save while times were good. We are in the worst possible position going in to this recession. We have a bloated Public sector which adds nothing to the economy. Public sector pay and pensions are far better than the private sector which pays for it. Time for change. We need a Tory government with an agenda to cut public spending drastically to achieve a low tax economy which allows companies to thrive and provide jobs.

That's the best short summary I've read about all this for a LONG time.

You're quite right that capitalism must be left to it's own market forces, it is government interference and meddling which has created a 'black hole' of money as lenders were encouraged to lend to those who could not afford to service the debt, let alone repay it.

[Thracian]

But can you see what a mess the Torys have made, you have to decide which is the lesser of the two evils - I've tried and decided there is no lesser they are as bad/good as each other, thinking only of self promotion.

I can't see what a mess the Tories have made. They haven't been in power for almost as long as I can remember and I damned sure I couldn't justify blaming Jim Callaghan or Harold Wilson for today's decisions and situation.

The Tories are not in power and haven't been for years. I have no idea how the current Tory leader would perform but he would have to be inept beyond belief to be worse than this lot.

The policies of this Government - no-one else - stick two fingers up to every working man in the UK.

So cynically self-serving are the systems by which these arseholes give our money away that, in my view, they are close to treason.

Great Britain's benefits bill is now £61 billions (not millions) a year. What the hell could we do with even half of £61 billion?

This government, headed by it's dogmatic but sadly misguided idealists, has fanned and encouraged a something-for-nothing culture that is so insulting to conscientious hardworking people that it's a wonder anyone does any work at all.

Some 140,000 households get more than £20,000 a year in benefits and 20,000 families get £30,000.

Great Britain is like a huge great charity shop which has an endless queue outside at the start of every day.

I don't know if Labour politicians are blind, afraid or if they simply hate this country and everything about it. But they've taken it to it's knees and there's every sign they'll keep kicking it, and its ever decreasing workforce, until there's little life left in either.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Surely given the educational standards of today the nation would cry, "Inuff!"