BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 How many Muslim "books" are there?Cos it's sure hard to equate the Twin Towers with your quote about "going to hell if you kill an innocent person" and "only being able to kill a person for murder." The book I meant was the Koran. And the point I'm trying to make is that people use religion as an excuse but they are not really religious people. It says in the Koran (I have read it) over and over that if you kill an innocent person you are not a Muslim. So if the people they blamed did do the twin towers attack then they weren't Muslims. And the people who got the blame were known to frequent bars in New york so they weren't Muslim because a muslim isn't allowed to drink alcohol. A good book to read on the twin tower attacks is 'The New Pearl Harbour' can't remember who by but I've read it. It's got a forward by Michael Meacher MP I know that but can't remember author. If you read it I think you'll come to the conclusion that the people who got the blame weren't actually the 'doers' of the crime. Also, there was a list of about 20 people (the ones whose pictures were put on news channels) supposedly on the planes, but at least 10 of them have been proven to still be alive and living in several different countries. They have been on the news talking.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 How many Muslim "books" are there?And what about Muslim executions for offences other than murder? Stoning women doesn't do their health any good! In the Koran it does say stone adulterers you're right. But this is more of a deterent to stop man and wife having affairs and ruining families. It says that you have to have four witnesses for the stoning to happen. You have to actually get caught in the sexual act by four people. And we all know that if someone is having an affair that you might be unlucky enough to get walked in on by 1 person and get caught, but four! Honestly it aint gonna happen is it? It i just a deterent because one of the main aims of Islam is to keep the family together. You only have to look at society in our country and the US to see what happens when families get seperated from adultery. It doesn't do the kids much good. So this is the aim of the stoning for adultery thing, just a deterent.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 And we're not talking Al Qaeda, we're talking Muslim governments. I'll just leave you access to a brief example of the range of crimes for which Muslim regimes impose the death penalty... Thats what I said though. I said that the regimes do the bad things, not the real Muslims. The regimes aren't Muslims, they pretend to be. Real Muslims are good people. When people fight back in those countries they are replying to years of oppression just as we would do.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 And we're not talking Al Qaeda, we're talking Muslim governments. I'll just leave you access to a brief example of the range of crimes for which Muslim regimes impose the death penalty...http://www.middle-east-info.org/league/saudi/saudi.pdf Yes the Saudi regime does all these things but that has nothing to do with Islam. Did you know that most people in Saudi don't like their leaders? They are only in power because of the military aid they receive from the US. Have you ever seen Bush holding hands with them? They are great friends. Women aren't allowed to drive there, nothing to do with Islam. A man made law in that country. A good book on the subject (and when I say 'good book' I don't mean a mad rant by some conspiracy nutjob, I mean an intelligent book by a serious reporter) is 'House of Bush House of Saud' by Craig Unger. 'Excellent', not my words Michael, the words of the Sunday Times on front cover. (Bit of Partridge there).
Thracian Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 The book I meant was the Koran. And the point I'm trying to make is that people use religion as an excuse but they are not really religious people. It says in the Koran (I have read it) over and over that if you kill an innocent person you are not a Muslim. So if the people they blamed did do the twin towers attack then they weren't Muslims. And the people who got the blame were known to frequent bars in New york so they weren't Muslim because a muslim isn't allowed to drink alcohol. A good book to read on the twin tower attacks is 'The New Pearl Harbour' can't remember who by but I've read it. It's got a forward by Michael Meacher MP I know that but can't remember author. If you read it I think you'll come to the conclusion that the people who got the blame weren't actually the 'doers' of the crime. Also, there was a list of about 20 people (the ones whose pictures were put on news channels) supposedly on the planes, but at least 10 of them have been proven to still be alive and living in several different countries. They have been on the news talking. Well first of all you say you should only kill people who murder. Then that you shouldn't kill an innocent person which is by no means the same because the term "innocent" can be as loose as you like and interpreted of course, not by God, but by man. And for their own ends if it suits. However, I well take your point about people hijacking your religion and seeking to abuse the spiritual commitment of the people who follow it.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Absolute shit, the viewpoint of someone who is both ill-read and ill-equiped for structured thinking. Which video did you get these opinions from? How is it absolute shite to say Dawkins book is a bit of a rant? I'm not ill-read like you say. I am probably a bit thick but I do read (I left you a comment in the books thread about history of physics that you started on page 22 of the thread). I might be ill-equiped for structured thinking but we can't all be Albert Einstein can we?
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Well first of all you say you should only kill people who murder. Then that you shouldn't kill an innocent person which is by no means the same because the term "innocent" can be as loose as you like and interpreted of course, not by God, but by man. And for their own ends if it suits. However, I well take your point about people hijacking your religion and seeking to abuse the spiritual commitment of the people who follow it. In the Koran it tells you what a Muslim believes is innocent. It says if somebody murder one of your family, then you get the choice of them having the death penalty, or if you want you can forgive them. What's wrong with that? I think we would all like to see an eye for an eye if the worst happened. It does say that it is better for you if you forgive though. And as for it being my religion, it isn't because I drink whisky and beer. And fornicate! But I do like the book and I think it talks sense. I bet if you read the whole book you would be suprised. I like real Muslims like Cat Stevens, Everlast (Jump Around song) and the ones who live near me but I don't like terrorist ones who kill innocent people.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Livening up the thread is one thing but having no idea about the subject in matter is another! Who has no idea about the subject matter? I think I got just as much an idea as you have.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Absolute shit, the viewpoint of someone who is both ill-read and ill-equiped for structured thinking. Which video did you get these opinions from? I have read both books by the way, 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins, and 'The Dawkins Delusion' by Alister McGrath. My view is that McGrath's book makes more sense. Have you read them?
Thracian Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 In the Koran it does say stone adulterers you're right. But this is more of a deterent to stop man and wife having affairs and ruining families. It says that you have to have four witnesses for the stoning to happen. You have to actually get caught in the sexual act by four people. And we all know that if someone is having an affair that you might be unlucky enough to get walked in on by 1 person and get caught, but four! Honestly it aint gonna happen is it? It i just a deterent because one of the main aims of Islam is to keep the family together. You only have to look at society in our country and the US to see what happens when families get seperated from adultery. It doesn't do the kids much good. So this is the aim of the stoning for adultery thing, just a deterent. Just a deterent? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7516238.stm Or (if you prefer) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7708169.stm
Head Honcho Posted 9 January 2009 Author Posted 9 January 2009 I have read both books by the way, 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins, and 'The Dawkins Delusion' by Alister McGrath. My view is that McGrath's book makes more sense. Have you read them? Reading books is one thing understanding them is another! I'd be interested to know your background and why so have so much disdain for Jews.
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Well let me leave you with three thoughts from the Christian doctrine that might serve you well over time, and particularly if you truly believe in the concept of God and of paradise..."Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself" is one, "Judge not that you be not judged," is the second and "Vengeance is Mine sayeth the Lord" the third. Yes I do believe in a Creator of this universe. And I also believe in Paradise. There is plenty of paradise on this planet so why couldn't there be some even better elsewhere. It's a big universe, apparently never ending. And if we just appeared out of nowhere on this planet, who's to say we can't just appear somewhere better in another life? Some people say that the soul lives forever and you get reincarnated on earth. I just think it happens elsewhere. Same thing though really aint it? As for the Vengeance thing, say if you had happened to create some living creatures right? And then you saw some of them raping, killing and basically being sh*t to eachother. Would you not have the right to punish those cruel people? That's why the people who believe in a Creator (as most people do on this planet) accept that if they do evil deeds then they will be punished in the next life. Sorry about talking about religion but I was just responding to a point made above. I won't do it again
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Reading books is one thing understanding them is another!I'd be interested to know your background and why so have so much disdain for Jews. What? I haven't any disdain for Jews. I don't know where you get that from? I've said many times on this thread that I like all religions and races, I just don't like terrorist religious people whatever religion they are from. Just because I say I think some leaders are wrong how does that make me have disdain for Jews? My background is the same as most people. Grew up, went to school, went to football, played football, chased women, got a job, drank beer and then continued goin to work for what seemed like an eternity. Simple
Head Honcho Posted 9 January 2009 Author Posted 9 January 2009 Vengeance is Mine Good or Bad This is the doctrine I tend agree with most.
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Just a deterent?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7516238.stm Or (if you prefer) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7708169.stm You keep getting what I mean mixed up. Probably my fault for how I put it. I am saying that the regimes are wrong. That's what I mean, the regimes are wrong but the religion isn't. There might have been people sentenced to death in Iran or wherever else, but the people who decided to punish them weren't following the Muslim religion were they? I bet they never had 4 witnesses to the adultery. I've tried to say it over and over that regimes are bad and do what they want. It has nothing to do with real Muslims. That's all I mean. I know as well as you do that the regimes in charge are bad. I am not defending them at all
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Vengeance is MineGood or Bad This is the doctrine I tend agree with most. Yes I bet it is, I can tell.
Head Honcho Posted 9 January 2009 Author Posted 9 January 2009 What? I haven't any disdain for Jews. I don't know where you get that from? I've said many times on this thread that I like all religions and races, I just don't like terrorist religious people whatever religion they are from. Just because I say I think some leaders are wrong how does that make me have disdain for Jews? My background is the same as most people. Grew up, went to school, went to football, played football, chased women, got a job, drank beer and then continued goin to work for what seemed like an eternity. Simple Then I apologise. I'm not going to trawl over the thread to prove my initial thoughts but it sure does seem like you do! Anyhow apologies if i've misunderstood you
Head Honcho Posted 9 January 2009 Author Posted 9 January 2009 Yes I bet it is, I can tell. I suppose spending the best part of my life serving queen and country accounts for that but hey if someone shits on my doorstep i'm not going to stand by and let them get away with it.
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Then I apologise. I'm not going to trawl over the thread to prove my initial thoughts but it sure does seem like you do!Anyhow apologies if i've misunderstood you Well I apologize too. I think I'm gonna give up on this thread because I must say things in the wrong way or summat. I think I just gonna stick to football talk
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 I suppose spending the best part of my life serving queen and country accounts for that but hey if someone shits on my doorstep i'm not going to stand by and let them get away with it. I agree about the shit and doorstep part. I got two cousins who were in Iraq (91 and this time) you might know em! 1st one was a trooper in 91 used to drive a tank. Think he was in Staffs can't remember. On south coast aswell somewhere
Head Honcho Posted 9 January 2009 Author Posted 9 January 2009 Well I apologize too. I think I'm gonna give up on this thread because I must say things in the wrong way or summat. I think I just gonna stick to football talk Promise Seriously though I started the thread to encourage debate on the matter and tbf it's been a pretty good one. Drinks are on me on saturday if you're out
Thracian Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 "Sorry about talking about religion but I was just responding to a point made above. I won't do it again" You speak as you like, pal. Don't think I'm likely to get offended.
Smudge Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Kudos El Empty! You have some huevos. The Bible, Torah and Qu'ran were written by by men which, makes them about as important as FoxesTalk threads
BoneDog Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 Kudos El Empty! You have some huevos.The Bible, Torah and Qu'ran were written by by men, which makes them about as important as FoxesTalk threads. Haha I like it! I think they were written by men but revealed by the Unseen! And later changed by man. But we'll never know who's right
Dr The Singh Posted 9 January 2009 Posted 9 January 2009 yes i meant it and belated welcome , hope FT does not interfere too much with what you are supposed to be doing though not many members take on the likes of breadandcheese, jon the hat, l444ry, dr singh , honcho , thracian etc etc in their first few days , respect mate , i certainly wouldn't try Hey, i'm not debating with anyone...like i've said my knowledge is vey thin on this topic. I'm on a fact finding mission!!!!
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