Israel

[BoneDog]

Can you please explain Saladin, I thought Israel was formed on the basis for a homeland for Jews not on any expansive ideology???

If Israel was formed on the basis of only a home for the Jews then they would of accepted the land (I think it was in Uganda not sure) they were offered. I think they had other intentions(who knows what?). They don't always tell us what their intentions are.

Look at Iraq, our leaders told us a few reasons why we were going in there, and these reasons were proven to be lies. Not mistakes, but lies.

[Saladin]

Can you please explain Saladin, I thought Israel was formed on the basis for a homeland for Jews not on any expansive ideology???

here's a site that'll will give you some insight : Click here

I could easily stay all day and debate, but aint got the time, need to get on with my uni work <_<

nuff peace n' love.

[BoneDog]

Press TV is financed by the Iranian Government. Are you for real, Empty?

Yes I am for real! Have you ever watched a PressTV report. You can't tell me it's all lies can you?

I do watch other news too. And read books from correspondents. And I also read alot of reporters works too, so let's not focus too much on just PressTV hey

[Trav Le Bleu]

Surely the state of Israel was founded, to a substantial degree, because of the belief of fundamental christians in US and UK that Christ's return would be in Israel - and that thus Israel had to exist - so they kicked out the palestinians who ahd lived there for almost 2000 years. Whilst you can't possibly condone their terrorism, you can understand their being a bit piqued about that.

[Head Honcho]

Press TV is financed by the Iranian Government. Are you for real, Empty?

I'm not sure if Empty has grasped the influence Iran has with Hamas

[Guest Bilo]

Hezbollah have denied it was them. It's most likely Palestinian refugees who are now based there.

Agreed. Hezbollah would have admitted responsibility had it been anything to do with them.

[BoneDog]

Surely the state of Israel was founded, to a substantial degree, because of the belief of fundamental christians in US and UK that Christ's return would be in Israel - and that thus Israel had to exist - so they kicked out the palestinians who ahd lived there for almost 2000 years. Whilst you can't possibly condone their terrorism, you can understand their being a bit piqued about that.

Good point.

Something to remember also is the fact that Jews were never being persecuted in Muslim lands (Spain and Palestine), they were all getting on fine. They were only being persecuted in europe. And not just in Germany. Other places too I think.

It's also important to remember that Muslims too believe that Jesus will return towards the end of time and that Muslim, Chritian and Jew(religious Jew) will all be one.

[Dr The Singh]

If Israel was formed on the basis of only a home for the Jews then they would of accepted the land (I think it was in Uganda not sure) they were offered. I think they had other intentions(who knows what?). They don't always tell us what their intentions are.

Look at Iraq, our leaders told us a few reasons why we were going in there, and these reasons were proven to be lies. Not mistakes, but lies.

I can believe the Israeli's having other intentions but it's a democratic country, with not just Jews and other races there aswell. Is there any evidence for this zionist theory???

On the issue of Iraq, the government has stated it made a mistake, it took USA's intelligence of WMD as being the reason. It was the evidence provided by the Secret services that were false, the government's lead 'open' enquiries which proved this. The government may have tried to wiggle out of the mistake but it neither tried to cover up or falsefy anything!! But yes there maybe a added interest to why we attacked Iraq.

Overall your implying the Western governments lie and support the zionist and are anti palestinian etc!! I would say every nation supports it's own interest, every nation is a 'business' and we the UK have a very bad bank balance!!

[breadandcheese]

Theodor (Binyamin Ze’ev) Herzl (1860-1904), founded the Zionist political movement, is who you are refering too.

Judaism is NOT Zionism. I've said before many Jews are against the Zionist movement. Israel was built on Zionist ideologies.

I'm under the impression that zionism is based on the right to Jews to have self-determination, hence the belief in a creation of a Jewish state, which was achieved. In that sense zionism is a political expression of a people. This now gets into the complicated strands of whether Judaism is solely a religion or a race, etc, which I think very few of us are qualified to debate as we don't know enough. As far as I'm aware, the majority of Jews who are anti-zionist believe in Judaism solely as a religion and so are anti-zionist on the belief that the state of Israel was not given to them nor determined by the Almighty or the messiah.

Where it can get contentious is what can be meant by no zionist state, no more problems. Is it the same as saying, we are not against Jews, just the right of Jews to have self-determination? I believe self-determination is a right for all peoples.

There are groups of people around the world who don't have that self-determination, and the Palestinians are one of those groups. They should also not be denied this right and should have their own state, side by side. The

[Guest Bilo]

Moving away slightly, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at this one.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2108531.ece

Although the Sun referring to illiterate morons is steeped in irony.........

[BoneDog]

I'm not sure if Empty has grasped the influence Iran has with Hamas

You might be right I don't know, but alot of the fighting is nothing to do with Hamas or Iran or the Israeli government. People who have lost loved ones in battle or been shit on for years take it upon themselves to fight. We would do exactly the same if it was happening here.

[BoneDog]

Agreed. Hezbollah would have admitted responsibility had it been anything to do with them.

Who are Hezbollah? Are they the government in Lebanon or a group I don't know?

[Guest Bilo]

Who are Hezbollah? Are they the government in Lebanon or a group I don't know?

They are a paramilitary group based in southern Lebanon, separate from the government. Some call them a terrorist group, but while their leader certainly has some unpleasant views, I'm not so sure.

[l444ry]

I'm not sure if Empty has grasped the influence Iran has with Hamas

I'm not sure that's the only thing Empty hasn't grasped.

No tunnels.

The rockets are fireworks on sticks.

PressTV is the best media outlet he can find.

[breadandcheese]

Surely the state of Israel was founded, to a substantial degree, because of the belief of fundamental christians in US and UK that Christ's return would be in Israel - and that thus Israel had to exist - so they kicked out the palestinians who ahd lived there for almost 2000 years. Whilst you can't possibly condone their terrorism, you can understand their being a bit piqued about that.

That's just not true and is based solely on what you've seen over the last 10-15 years. Back in the 1940s, it was a bit different.

The Soviet Union, not exactly a hotbed of Christian cheer, gave its support to the establishment of the state of Israel in the 1947 UN partition plan.

The UK likewise did the same. Again, the UK was not full of fundamental christians, and isn't so today.

I can't comment on whether the fundamentalist christians in the US had the same sort of influence in the 1940s as they do today, but I'm going to guess that they probably didn't and that this political influence really came about from the 1960s onwards. I will defer to somebody who's studied US politics to correct me on that.

[BoneDog]

I can believe the Israeli's having other intentions but it's a democratic country, with not just Jews and other races there aswell. Is there any evidence for this zionist theory???

On the issue of Iraq, the government has stated it made a mistake, it took USA's intelligence of WMD as being the reason. It was the evidence provided by the Secret services that were false, the government's lead 'open' enquiries which proved this. The government may have tried to wiggle out of the mistake but it neither tried to cover up or falsefy anything!! But yes there maybe a added interest to why we attacked Iraq.

Overall your implying the Western governments lie and support the zionist and are anti palestinian etc!! I would say every nation supports it's own interest, every nation is a 'business' and we the UK have a very bad bank balance!!

Yes there is evidence about zionists, they are not secret. As for the government saying the intelligence agencies got it wrong, well I have read articles from intelligence people saying that they couldn't believe what the government came out with. That is what the 'sexed up dossier' stuff was all about. The intelligence people say that the government (Blairs not this one) changed bits of intelligence (hence the sexing up stuff).

I am not implying anything about the governments of west except that we know they lie because they get caught out so many times. I don't know who they like and don't like. You're correct in saying governments looks after it's own interests.

All I don't understand is why people go on supporting their leaders when it's obvious that they take the piss out of us. We don't matter to them.

[BoneDog]

I'm under the impression that zionism is based on the right to Jews to have self-determination, hence the belief in a creation of a Jewish state, which was achieved. In that sense zionism is a political expression of a people.

Why should any group of people decide that they have the right to their own state and then be allowed to go to someone else's country and take it over? Jews were in alot of countrys around the world in the old days and getting on fine. They got attacked by the nazis in WW2 but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to kick other people out of their homes and land and claim it for themselves does it?

[Head Honcho]

You might be right I don't know, but alot of the fighting is nothing to do with Hamas or Iran or the Israeli government. People who have lost loved ones in battle or been shit on for years take it upon themselves to fight. We would do exactly the same if it was happening here.

Well let's just say that without Iran there would be no Hamas

[BoneDog]

I'm not sure that's the only thing Empty hasn't grasped.

No tunnels.

The rockets are fireworks on sticks.

PressTV is the best media outlet he can find.

You like talkin about me don't you? 1st thing, the tunnels. My point there was that if the Palestinians could freely move into Egypt when they felt like it then they would have better weapons and it wouldn't be so easy for Israeli helicopters to just hover for 20 minutes and fire as many missiles as they pleased.

As for the rockets, they are basically very big fireworks. They have almost no history of doing any damage, and as they have apparantly fired thousands of them we have seen no evidence of damage. If they were effective you know we would have seen pictures and videos of the destruction. I have only seen a couple of small garden walls with holes in them. 20 people killed from them in over 10 years. If these so called 'rockets' were effective we would have pictures like the ones we see in Gaza. When Israel fires just a few missiles we get pictures of devastation so if the 'rockets' from Hamas or whoever were any good we would get the same pictures from Israel.

And I have never said PressTv is the best media outlet I can find. I have said it has some good reports by independent reporters.

But as we all know, you understand everything so much better than I do.

[Dr The Singh]

Why should any group of people decide that they have the right to their own state and then be allowed to go to someone else's country and take it over? Jews were in alot of countrys around the world in the old days and getting on fine. They got attacked by the nazis in WW2 but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to kick other people out of their homes and land and claim it for themselves does it?

Very true, was the due to sympathy or did the jews have any right to the land they took??????

[Dr The Singh]

You like talkin about me don't you? 1st thing, the tunnels. My point there was that if the Palestinians could freely move into Egypt when they felt like it then they would have better weapons and it wouldn't be so easy for Israeli helicopters to just hover for 20 minutes and fire as many missiles as they pleased.

As for the rockets, they are basically very big fireworks. They have almost no history of doing any damage, and as they have apparantly fired thousands of them we have seen no evidence of damage. If they were effective you know we would have seen pictures and videos of the destruction. I have only seen a couple of small garden walls with holes in them. 20 people killed from them in over 10 years. If these so called 'rockets' were effective we would have pictures like the ones we see in Gaza.

And I have never said PressTv is the best media outlet I can find. I have said it has some good reports by independent reporters.

But as we all know, you understand everything so much better than I do.

Oh come of it, the damage those 'fireworks' (as you say) have done has been in the news all week, if struck, you will more then likely be killed. Empty, ignorance is no answer in trying to prove one's right!!!!!

[Thracian]

If there was no Zionist state, I believe the current situation would not exist. Arab Muslims, Christians & Jews lived in what was Palestine (pre '48), without a problem. Since Israel stole land and made it exclusively available to Jewish settlers, which is when the problems started.

Perhaps you could furnish me with figures for Christians living at peace in Muslim countries.

I'd have some sympathy if Palestine was the only source of conflict with Muslims.

But it's not. Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, India, China, Russia ... is there any end to the places I could mention?

If there was no Zionist state that might, I only say might, end warfare in a few hundred square miles.

But who or what do you destroy for peace to exist in the other places?

And doesn't it bother you that Muslims seem to be forever talking about killing or destroying someone or something on some pretext or another? Muslim literature now seems full of it yet, in the beginning, the Muslim message seemed to be one of peace and goodwill.

I have read chapter and verse about Muslim fundamentalist aims.

And if the Muslim fundamentalists are so concerned about who occupies historically "Arab" lands, how come they tolerate so many Muslims occupying lands that historically belonged to Christian or even Pagan people?

I could quite happily work out a worldwide deal to sort this. A deal that would still allow for mutual trading, mutual respect and mutual co-operation where it benefitted all parties.

But I bet, when push came to shove, the Muslims wouldn't accept it. Cos you know and I know it wouldn't fit in with the broad aims of Muslim philosophy.

And, sooner or later those aims will inflame the most hideous conflict despite the cameo set-to in Palestine, utterly shameful as it is to all who've inflamed it, being an ongoing insult to the concept of God for either Christian or Muslim.

Photographs of dead children affect me deeply to the extent that they provide the most compelling evidence in favour of ending all warfare and burning every weapon in existence. The legacy of hatred those deaths leave will never die, just as the Jews will never forget their own persecution.

But they mean nothing to me as media propaganda for the rights and wrongs of this conflict because women and kids die in all wars.

Muslims fundamentalists would kill, destroy and endanger even their own for their long term aims as they have shown many times.

They want no negotiated selttlement in Palestine as is well documented.

But unfortunately for those who would use the dead children image as a stick to beat the Israelis, the Jews know all about suffering.

A few hours walking around Auschwitz and Birkenau or reading about it would show you that Jews have lost enough women, children and infants to last for centuries so will never again be deterred from fighting their cause, justified or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps

[Zingari]

irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with their views, I for one think that El Empty and Saladin deserve a :appl: . for livening this forum up again .

they aint scared to mix it with the heavyweights of FT and debate well , cheers lads

if only Chandler would make a few appearances again i used to love his conspiracy angles

[Dr The Singh]

irrespective of whether you agree or disagree with their views, I for one think that El Empty and Saladin deserve a :appl: . for livening this forum up again .

they aint scared to mix it with the heavyweights of FT and debate well , cheers lads

if only Chandler would make a few appearances again i used to love his conspiracy angles

If you posted that before Thracians's post I may have believed it, stop trying to take the piss Zingari!!!

[breadandcheese]

Why should any group of people decide that they have the right to their own state and then be allowed to go to someone else's country and take it over? Jews were in alot of countrys around the world in the old days and getting on fine. They got attacked by the nazis in WW2 but that doesn't mean they should be allowed to kick other people out of their homes and land and claim it for themselves does it?

I think that's a bit of an over simplification.

I do believe that every set of people should have the right to self-determination. With regards to nation building and when a group of people should have a state, that is a complex issue. That question can apply equally to the existence of any state. Frequently, the only reason for the existence of any state is simply that it is historical, that it's been there for many years.

The Jewish people have had a continued presence in Israel for over 2500 years. They've been dispersed throughout the world, but always looked towards Israel as their spiritual home. This is the basis for their claim, which is not quite the same as picking a country at random and away you go.

At the time of the creation of the zionist movement, the area that is now Israel, was just an insignificant part of the Turkish Ottoman empire. It then became part of the British mandate. This would help to explain why it was deemed a good place to recreate a jewish state. World war 2 and the anti-semitism of that time obviously helped convince many jews that they needed their own country to protect themselves.

As a result, the establishment of Israel has become a footnote of history, in the same way events throughout history have become so. Everything has to be seen within the context of the time, which makes it almost inapplicable now for a starting point on the current problems. No peace settlement will right the pain suffered on either side, so history almost has to be ignored to come to any peace settlement.