Head Honcho Posted 8 January 2009 Author Posted 8 January 2009 Interesting choice of terminology. Can I ask why you call it a zionist state in this context rather than a jewish state?I don't agree with your historical interpretation. Israel has been the most fought over strip of land throughout history. From the Jews, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Romans, Muhammedans, Crusaders, Mamleks, Ottomans, Under the British mandate, Israel, etc. It's the price of being on a strip of land that links 3 continents. As a piece of land, it has only had its independence a few times, primarily under the Jews. In each intervening period, it has always formed some part of an empire, be it Roman, Ottoman, etc. It is only after the British mandate, with the rise in nationalism that swept the globe, that the current conflict has started. I tend to take the popular view that there are two populations each with a competing claim, so the land must be split into two. I haven't seen a better option than that. That was the original plan in 1947 but Israel decided it wasn't happy with the situation and declared independency. ..........and as I said earlier any subsequent land procured by Israel has been quite legitimate if not entirely above board!
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Is this not the same as saying, if there were no jewish countries in the middle east, there would be no problem? Jews and Zionism are two different things. Alot of Jews don't agree with zionism
breadandcheese Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 No, Israel's decision to kick Palestinian's of their land and shove them into refugee camps caused the bloodshed. Actually, it would be the countries of Egypt, Jordan and Lebanon that shoved them into refugee camps. The war in 1948 was fought between Israel and the Arab armies. Whether the Palestinians in the camps fled an oncoming enemy army, or were forced to go is the source of much debate that historians are ploughing through. I personally believe it is a combination of the two. However, once they had moved to Arab controlled areas in 1948 (be they neighbouring Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, or within Egyptian controlled Gaza Strip and Jordanian controlled West Bank), it would be those controlling authorities who shoved them into the refugee camps. Small point I know, but it's important to keep the facts correct where they are known.
Dr The Singh Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 That was the original plan in 1947 but Israel decided it wasn't happy with the situation and declared independency...........and as I said earlier any subsequent land procured by Israel has been quite legitimate if not entirely above board! Please explain, my Honchoed friend????
breadandcheese Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 That was the original plan in 1947 but Israel decided it wasn't happy with the situation and declared independency...........and as I said earlier any subsequent land procured by Israel has been quite legitimate if not entirely above board! If you're referring to the 1947 UN plan, that's completely wrong. Other way round. Israel accepted, the Palestinians refused.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 You do have a habit of shooting yourself in the foot. Press TV is Iranian, hardly unbiased. They recently aired a programme denying the Holocaust as well. I didn't say It's all good, I said 'PressTV has some good reporting'. I never knew it was Iranian, but that doesn't mean it's crap. Only the Iranian government are bad. And a few of the population obviously (like all countries). But PressTV isn't run by the Iranian ayatollah's. It's got all sorts of different reporters on it from all over the world.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Actually Zionism has been in the middle east for over three thousand years.Israel's decision to declare independancy and Arab nations objecting to this is the reason for the bloodshed. Zionism hasn't been in the middle east for 3 thousand years. It was started in the late 1880's or 90's by someone called Hertzel I think.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 You do have a habit of shooting yourself in the foot. Press TV is Iranian, hardly unbiased. They recently aired a programme denying the Holocaust as well. Above quote is like saying 'BBC is English, hardly unbiased'. You can't tar a whole nation with the same brush.
Dr The Singh Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 I didn't say It's all good, I said 'PressTV has some good reporting'. I never knew it was Iranian, but that doesn't mean it's crap. Only the Iranian government are bad. And a few of the population obviously (like all countries). But PressTV isn't run by the Iranian ayatollah's. It's got all sorts of different reporters on it from all over the world. I wonder if it criticise the current Iranian regime on it's stance on Israel and the West..........I doubt it, I presume it would be more state driven, considering the BBC does actually criticise the west for it's mistakes???????
Head Honcho Posted 8 January 2009 Author Posted 8 January 2009 If you're referring to the 1947 UN plan, that's completely wrong. Other way round. Israel accepted, the Palestinians refused. I know Israel initially accepted it but their decision to declare independance (because of Palestines refusal to comply) in 1948 and the subsequent war is surely the reason for much of the troubles for the past 60 years. Israel has been at war with many if not all of it's neighbours and the lands they conquered during these wars are now quite legitimately Israeli controlled. I'm not going to list all of the examples but during the 6 day war with Egypt they gained control of Gaza.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Interesting choice of terminology. Can I ask why you call it a zionist state in this context rather than a jewish state? I will have a go at answering why he calls it a zionist state and not a jewish one. Jewish is a race of people. Zionist is an ideology. Alot of jews in Israel support zionism and alot are against it and prefer to follow old jewish laws. But the government in Israel is Zionist (that is why they are called 'zionist state') and has none of the old kind of jews in it as far as I'm aware. Might be wrong, that's just what I can gather.
Head Honcho Posted 8 January 2009 Author Posted 8 January 2009 Zionism hasn't been in the middle east for 3 thousand years. It was started in the late 1880's or 90's by someone called Hertzel I think. I think you're talking about the Zionist movement which is something completely different.
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Anyway, PressTV does have some good unbiased old school reporting on it. So does alot of other places too. Unfortunately alot of good unbiased reporters who do their own thing get killed in action due to the nature of their work.
Zingari Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Attack on Israel from Lebanon threatens 2nd front http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...RPRq3gD95J169O3 it's hotting up
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 I think you're talking about the Zionist movement which is something completely different. Ok, I only know bits and bobs about all that. I just saw something on the late 1800's and thought that was where it all came from. That is where all the planning started for going back to 'The Holy Land' though
breadandcheese Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 I know Israel initially accepted it but their decision to declare independance (because of Palestines refusal to comply) in 1948 and the subsequent war is surely the reason for much of the troubles for the past 60 years. I'm not sure what the alternative was? Israel accepted the plan, it was rejected by the other side. What are they supposed to do next, bearing in mind the British mandate was coming to an end.
Head Honcho Posted 8 January 2009 Author Posted 8 January 2009 I'm not sure what the alternative was? Israel accepted the plan, it was rejected by the other side. What are they supposed to do next, bearing in mind the British mandate was coming to an end. Hey I'm with you on this subject but there's no denying that Israel isn't entirely blameless in all of this.
Zingari Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Hey I'm with you on this subject but there's no denying that Israel isn't entirely blameless in all of this. the Arab-Israeli problem is spreading no-one knows who the enemy is and who started it
Saladin Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 I will have a go at answering why he calls it a zionist state and not a jewish one. Jewish is a race of people. Zionist is an ideology. Alot of jews in Israel support zionism and alot are against it and prefer to follow old jewish laws. But the government in Israel is Zionist (that is why they are called 'zionist state') and has none of the old kind of jews in it as far as I'm aware. Might be wrong, that's just what I can gather. Theodor (Binyamin Ze’ev) Herzl (1860-1904), founded the Zionist political movement, is who you are refering too. Judaism is NOT Zionism. I've said before many Jews are against the Zionist movement. Israel was built on Zionist ideologies.
Saladin Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Attack on Israel from Lebanon threatens 2nd fronthttp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...RPRq3gD95J169O3 it's hotting up Hezbollah have denied it was them. It's most likely Palestinian refugees who are now based there.
Zingari Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Hezbollah have denied it was them. It's most likely Palestinian refugees who are now based there. looks a dangerous development though , lebanon will not stand for any israeli reprisal attacks
Dr The Singh Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Theodor (Binyamin Ze’ev) Herzl (1860-1904), founded the Zionist political movement, is who you are refering too.Judaism is NOT Zionism. I've said before many Jews are against the Zionist movement. Israel was built on Zionist ideologies. Can you please explain Saladin, I thought Israel was formed on the basis for a homeland for Jews not on any expansive ideology???
BoneDog Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 Theodor (Binyamin Ze’ev) Herzl (1860-1904), founded the Zionist political movement, is who you are refering too.Judaism is NOT Zionism. I've said before many Jews are against the Zionist movement. Israel was built on Zionist ideologies. Here is what Jews against zionism believe Not my views before anyone has a go just the view of Jews who aren't zionist
l444ry Posted 8 January 2009 Posted 8 January 2009 I didn't say It's all good, I said 'PressTV has some good reporting'. I never knew it was Iranian, but that doesn't mean it's crap. Only the Iranian government are bad. And a few of the population obviously (like all countries). But PressTV isn't run by the Iranian ayatollah's. It's got all sorts of different reporters on it from all over the world. Press TV is financed by the Iranian Government. Are you for real, Empty?
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