Protestors disrupt soldiers homecoming march

[Houdini Logic]

To be fair, they are fighting an illegal war...

[Edmund]

To be fair, they are fighting an illegal war...

In what way is it illegal?

[Guest Bilo]

To be fair, they are fighting an illegal war...

But have no choice in the matter because once you sign up to the armed forces, you sign up to whatever cause the government commits our military to, however foolish.

As said before, condemn those who sent them there not the soldiers themselves.

[Houdini Logic]

In what way is it illegal?

in the International Law way

[Edmund]

in the International Law way

Sorry I'm getting mixed up with Afghanistan. Yes Iraq has a lot of grey areas to the reason for going to war.

[Ultra]

But have no choice in the matter because once you sign up to the armed forces, you sign up to whatever cause the government commits our military to, however foolish.

They're hardly conscripted, though, are they?

And the experience of Northern Ireland and elsewhere during past decades might have given them some idea of what they might be letting themselves in for.

[Edmund]

They're hardly conscripted, though, are they?

And the experience of Northern Ireland and elsewhere during past decades might have given them some idea of what they might be letting themselves in for.

At the end of the day thats there job. There trained to kill and follow orders end of.

Of course they know what there going into it's the bloody army, it's not going to be coffee and cream cakes.

What Nothern Ireland has to do with it I don't know. Surely world war 1 and 2 is more of a deterrent for joining the army more than anything if were going on past conflicts.

[Finnegan]

What Nothern Ireland has to do with it I don't know. Surely world war 1 and 2 is more of a deterrent for joining the army more than anything if were going on past conflicts.

Er. World War 2 = Sixty years ago.

Northern Ireland = Less than a decade ago.

[breadandcheese]

Oh please. Spare us the sermon about how the war in Iraq was waged for "humanitarian" reasons. That's one of the most fcuked-up things I've ever read.

The USA and UK were quite happy to do business with Saddam for decades, even selling him weapons so he could launch an invasion of Iran. They didn't give a flying one about his atrocities against the Kurds and others during this time.

Of course, this all changed when Saddam turned on the Saudis and Kuwaitis and started posing a threat to Western oil supplies. The fact that he also gave aid to the Palestinians in their struggle against Israel made him a target in the US. Finally, the aftermath of 9/11 also gave Bush and Blair to spread the myth of "weapons of mass destruction" as a means for launching the invasion.

However brutal Saddam's regime was, the current situation facing ordinary Iraqis is far worse now. Life expectancy has dropped by over 20 years, large sections of the country no longer have access to water or electricity, and the economy is in ruins. Extremist groups have now gained a foothold in many towns in a way that was only made possible by the chaos caused by the US/UK invasion. Indeed groups such as Al-Qaida have gained a huge boost from an upsurge in anti-Western feeling.

While Obama may indeed be willing to commit billions towards rebuilding Iraq, the sums don't compare with the damage that was done by the bombings which wrecked the country's infrastructure, nor the amounts looted from Iraq by corporations like Halliburton.

The only people who are qualified to undertake the reconstruction of Iraq are the Iraqi people themselves.

Re-read what I've said. I'm not trying to justify the case for war or suggest we waged war for humanitarian reasons. It is clear we as a nation were wrong to wage war on Iraq with the Americans. I'm not trying to make out we're a haven of caring for the Iraqi people either.

I am saying quite clearly that the Al-Muhajiroun who protested in Luton, equally care as little about Iraq as we do and care more about the "Great Satan" America.

Your last sentence captures my point entirely. "The only people who are qualified to undertake the reconstruction of Iraq are the Iraqi people themselves." This ethos pretty much unites most of the political spectrum. I agree with it, you agree with it, pretty much everyone. However, they will need money to rebuild and America is pretty much prepared to underwrite that for the sake of their place in history and world standing. Indeed, we in Britain and America have a moral obligation to provide the funds to help Iraq rebuild. We messed it up, we should help bankroll reconstruction and provide assistance to Iraqi forces to ensure that extremist elements that you mention above do not take hold.

Iraq should be allowed to rinse this American "bank" for all it's worth. There are of course extremists who do not want to see Iraq rebuild with American aid, for this would be a kick in the face to the Al-Muhajiroun cause. It would be humiliating to accept American assistance, the great enemy, to rebuild. This element is what the protesters in Luton represented. We should all be opposed to them.

It is entirely legitimate to protest against the decision to invade Iraq. Where I draw issue is protestors with placards calling soldiers butchers. It is not constructive, it is not a protest, it is shouting insults at soldiers.

[Edmund]

Er. World War 2 = Sixty years ago.

Northern Ireland = Less than a decade ago.

Yes thank you for the history lesson but what has Northern Ireland got to do with people signing up to the army. That's the point he made?

Surely if your signing up for the army it's inevitable you are going to fight as thats what your trained to do and the army has been doing for the last 1000 years and they know exactly what there letting themselves into.

[Finnegan]

Yes thank you for the history lesson but what has Northern Ireland got to do with people signing up to the army. That's the point he made?

Surely if your signing up for the army it's inevitable you are going to fight as thats what your trained to do and the army has been doing for the last 1000 years and they know exactly what there letting themselves into.

I think he's just trying to give a modern example of soldiering still being a serious danger, even when the enemy are 'civilians.'

I got the point, I'm not sure it was a complicated one...

[Edmund]

I think he's just trying to give a modern example of soldiering still being a serious danger, even when the enemy are 'civilians.'

I got the point, I'm not sure it was a complicated one...

Oh right fair enough. Tbh im getting confused myself and I think ive just ended up backing his point up anyway. fook knows.

[Guest Bilo]

They're hardly conscripted, though, are they?

And the experience of Northern Ireland and elsewhere during past decades might have given them some idea of what they might be letting themselves in for.

They aren't conscripted but my point is that the government are to blame for them being there. Those in our army should not be put in harm's way unless absolutely necessary (Michael Moore quote I know). The soldiers may have joined the army of their own accord but does that imply that they support the foreign policy of our government or the reasoning behind the Iraq war? Of course it doesn't, there are any number of reasons why somebody would choose to join the Army, most of which are not linked to support for governmental policy or jingoism. They are aware that they may go to war, and have no right to complain if that does happen SO LONG AS THAT WAR IS LEGITIMATE. What they do have is the right to expect is that the government will not send them to war unnecessarily. Or to send them into an illegitimate and illegal war based on false pretences. Protesting about the government who put our soldiers in harms way unnecessarily is acceptable. Screaming abuse at those who have been treated as nothing more than pawns in Bliar's war against Iraq is not.

[Finnegan]

I think Bilo sort of assumes everyone joining the army is either naive or an idiot.

It's pretty obvious what you're getting into when you sign up. As far as I'm concerned you have to be morally grey and fairly without a political agenda to join the army in the first place which takes away most of your complaint.

Granted I don't know every member of the armed forces personally but I'm yet to meet a squadie that gives me reason to believe I'm wrong, either.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I think Bilo sort of assumes everyone joining the army is either naive or an idiot.

It can't be true because they turned me down for those very reasons

[Guest Bilo]

I think Bilo sort of assumes everyone joining the army is either naive or an idiot.

With several friends in the army, I know this not to be the case. As I've said, there are numerous reasons why a person might join the army. Naivety and/or stupidity are seldom among them. I would suggest that a desire for a lifelong career, training that is well valued in civvy street after leaving the army and a decent pension are more common motivations.

It's pretty obvious what you're getting into when you sign up. As far as I'm concerned you have to be morally grey and fairly without a political agenda to join the army in the first place which takes away most of your complaint.

They do know to an extent what they're getting into. None of this makes them justifiable cannon fodder or legitimate targets for abuse on the street from strangers. Even if they do do not have the right to complain as you say, my point is that us civvies who choose not to join the army do, and that soldiers are not the right people to put our complaints to.

Granted I don't know every member of the armed forces personally but I'm yet to meet a squadie that gives me reason to believe I'm wrong, either.

I don't profess to know every squaddie, and I'm sure that there are some who are 'morally grey'. I've never denied this, but I'm equally sure that the majority are just perfectly decent people who want a stable career. In times such as these, there aren't too many stable 'jobs for life' anymore.

[Houdini Logic]

At the end of the day thats there job. There trained to kill and follow orders end of.

Of course they know what there going into it's the bloody army, it's not going to be coffee and cream cakes.

What Nothern Ireland has to do with it I don't know. Surely world war 1 and 2 is more of a deterrent for joining the army more than anything if were going on past conflicts.

But that's exactly the point - they are trained to kill and if they were killing people in my country Id be rather pissed off.

I could be going out on a limb here, but I don't think their protests were because they don't like their uniform

[Houdini Logic]

I don't profess to know every squaddie, and I'm sure that there are some who are 'morally grey'. I've never denied this, but I'm equally sure that the majority are just perfectly decent people who want a stable career. In times such as these, there aren't too many stable 'jobs for life' anymore.

I'm sure there are some nice people in the forces but that's somewhat irrelevent as to whether people are allowed to protest against what they're doing

[Head Honcho]

I think it's shocking too. My perspective on the army etc were changed when my RS teacher got called to go to Iraq.

Thankfully he comes back later this month, but it was a shame not to be taught by him in my last year at school

Oh go on!

These bastards want stringing up-at least they are now in a country where they are able to protest.

There's a time and a place for demos like this and it isn't on a homecoming parade.

What were the police thinking-muppets!

[l444ry]

Oh go on!

These bastards want stringing up-at least they are now in a country where they are able to protest.

There's a time and a place for demos like this and it isn't on a homecoming parade.

What were the police thinking-muppets!

Perhaps these democratic loving pillocks could show us which version of an Islamic state they would like Britain to adopt.

[Head Honcho]

What, like the BNP and Daily Star/Mail/Express readers?

I know for a fact that the BNP and others were tipped off in advance of this demo and that many went to Luton looking for a ruck.

Credit to the local plod for being able to stop this.

You know for a fact or you read it somewhere?

Do you have a source as the link doesn't work?

[Shrenchel]

Oh go on!

These bastards want stringing up-at least they are now in a country where they are able to protest.

There's a time and a place for demos like this and it isn't on a homecoming parade.

What were the police thinking-muppets!

Yeah but the point being that if they were strung up, or banged up, or sent to the sahara desert or even just given a caution then they wouldn't live a country where they have the right to protest.

[Head Honcho]

Yeah but the point being that if they were strung up, or banged up, or sent to the sahara desert or even just given a caution then they wouldn't live a country where they have the right to protest.

I think I know what you're trying to say

[Daggers]

tipped off

Lovely forum.

[Webbo]

I've nothing against our soldiers and I won't lose any sleep over how many Iraqis/Afghans they've killed, I don't know how justified they were anymore than all the anti-war experts on here.

I just think that these parades aren't very British, it's the sort of thing they do Russia or America. I'm extremely proud of my country but I just find all this flag waving a bit naff.