G20 demonstrations

[Finnegan]

I can't believe there's a 14 page thread on this bullshit.

I can't believe you feel the need to come into a thread fourteen pages long (that's fourteen pages of often fairly substantial posts) and comment that you can't believe this "bullshit" has lasted fourteen pages.

And Tony, you'd have far more credibility if you didn't feel the need to tack on some emotive, cliché bollocks about evil communists, Marxists and socialists on the end of all of your speeches.

I mean some of what you're saying about human greed I'm prone to agree with. But sometimes you just seem to want to be silly for the sakes of it.

[Thracian]

No, like I said, the system isn't supposed to put 'value' to anything. You need to stop thinking like a banker and think about "worth" as a more abstract concept.

It's easy to imagine on a communal level, at village level, the farmer feeding everyone indiscriminately because he in turn receives any infinite number of services from his community when and where he needs them.

On a more global level it's difficult to get your head around but it isn't impossible. Say country X is full of skilled technicians but has no oil or gas reserves to make plastics and no ore reserves to make metal components - countries Y and Z who do are happy to send their resources to country X because country X provides country Q with motherboards, microprocessors and the like to make computers for countries Y, Z, X and Q.

Nobody questions the worth or the value and nobody finds themselves wanting because resources are available to all who will put them to use.

Like I said - it isn't realistic I agree but it is (vaguely) possible. You don't need a world bank you just need a united world. You work as one, great, big machine.

You should write fiction. I've no idea where you were educated or what tripe you've read to influence you but for a supposedly intelligent guy I can't believe you seriously think any of that is either possible or desirable.

But by all means take me through it some more and show me how your 21 century New Orwellian concept is going to work and how we're all going to end up happier, more motivated, more fulfilled etc

[Edmund]

The only party I would vote for.

[Webbo]

Had a Conservative government presided over what Labour has been responsible for these last few years, London would probably have been a battleground yesterday. But it wasn't. It sounded half-hearted really.

Yes unemployment became high under Thatcher (British industry was overnmanned and uncompetitive) but the job losses today are equally commonplace and there's the added barb of all the anti-English manipulating that goes with them. Yet the riots were much more fearsome in Thatcher's day.

Why? Because the Communists, Marxists and other socialists find it hard to hate the Labour party because they've often made do with supporting it.

And it's so hard for protesters to bark loudly against the actions or consequences of a government that many of them will have voted for in the first place and whose representatives have plainly had their snouts in the trough as keenly as any capitalists.

And Tony, you'd have far more credibility if you didn't feel the need to tack on some emotive, cliché bollocks about evil communists, Marxists and socialists on the end of all of your speeches.

I mean some of what you're saying about human greed I'm prone to agree with. But sometimes you just seem to want to be silly for the sakes of it.

What was silly about that?

[Finnegan]

You should write fiction. I've no idea where you were educated or what tripe you've read to influence you but for a supposedly intelligent guy I can't believe you seriously think any of that is either possible or desirable.

But by all means take me through it some more and show me how your 21 century New Orwellian concept is going to work and how we're all going to end up happier, more motivated, more fulfilled etc

What?

Okay now go back and read the numerous parts where I said it wouldn't work, can't work and is naive idealism?

And the part where I pointed out I'm not even anti-capitalism.

Or the part where I even subtely alluded to agreeing with you that capitalism's only major flaw is greed!

You're damn right I'm intelligent and educated! You however apparently failed at reading comprehension!

[Finnegan]

It's an amazingly brilliant yet simple idea.. in theory. In reallity it completely ignores thousands of years of human nature. Ambition, greed, inherent violence and God knows what else. It's idealism, it's naive and it's pretty much impossible.

Capitalism (and war) creates competition, though, competition that has fuelled thousands of advances in technology we may otherwise not have had.

You probably wouldn't have a plasma TV, if a TV at all, if it weren't for Capitalists. I don't like or approve of capitalism but I wouldn't call myself an anti-capitalist because it's simply impossible to imagine a world without it and I really don't believe we'd be anywhere near as well developed if not.

That and I think human evil would exist anyway - see Stalin, Polpot, Mao, etc.

Like I said - it isn't realistic I agree

You're arguing with the wrong person. I'm explaining what anarchy is not saying we should adopt it as our social system.

Just, yknow, making it easier for you.

[Bert]

I can't believe you feel the need to come into a thread fourteen pages long (that's fourteen pages of often fairly substantial posts) and comment that you can't believe this "bullshit" has lasted fourteen pages.

And Tony, you'd have far more credibility if you didn't feel the need to tack on some emotive, cliché bollocks about evil communists, Marxists and socialists on the end of all of your speeches.

I mean some of what you're saying about human greed I'm prone to agree with. But sometimes you just seem to want to be silly for the sakes of it.

Well believe it Dad.

Sorry for having an opinion, I forgot you're the only person allowed to have one on here.

In my next post I'll try and over-exaggerate everything like you do.

[breadandcheese]

I love the notion that greed is the problem with capitalism. It really isn't. Greed is closely linked with ambition.

Capitalism's problem stems from inefficient markets.

The markets were being allowed to run inefficiently for the best part of a decade, such that huge imbalances built up and that risk was woefully mismanaged. The when the market finally started to correct itself, it was too efficient at this, which meant the correction was so sharp. Everything after has been the government's of the world attempting to slow down this correction.

Greed was not the problem that caused the credit crunch.

Edit: It's little forgotten that sub-prime mortgages were encouraged by the US government (Clinton & Bush) to help those at the very margins of society get on the housing ladder and join the asset owning classes. That is not a motive driven by greed but care for the underclasses.

I should add that I don't think greed is the most desirable characteristic and does need a sense of balance alongside it.

[Finnegan]

Well believe it Dad.

Sorry for having an opinion, I forgot you're the only person allowed to have one on here.

In my next post I'll try and over-exaggerate everything like you do.

You didn't really state an opinion. You basically alluded to this not being a worthwhile topic for everyone who has contributed in here to be posting in.

It's called forum trolling. If DB11 were to post what you had posted everyone would have just rolled their eyes and told him to jog on.

[Finnegan]

I love the notion that greed is the problem with capitalism. It really isn't. Greed is closely linked with ambition.

Capitalism's problem stems from inefficient markets.

The markets were being allowed to run inefficiently for the best part of a decade, such that huge imbalances built up and that risk was woefully mismanaged. The when the market finally started to correct itself, it was too efficient at this, which meant the correction was so sharp. Everything after has been the government's of the world attempting to slow down this correction.

Greed was not the problem that caused the credit crunch.

Sure. But I don't really think the credit crunch is the only thing wrong with a capitalist system.

I think the fact that half of Shaq O'Neal's monthly expenditure could probably bring an entire neighbourhood in his native New Jersey out from below the poverty line is what's "wrong" with capitalism and I think that's pretty fairly attributed to greed.

[Bert]

You didn't really state an opinion. You basically alluded to this not being a worthwhile topic for everyone who has contributed in here to be posting in.

It's called forum trolling. If DB11 were to post what you had posted everyone would have just rolled their eyes and told him to jog on.

You talk to me like I'm 12.

I think these "demonstrations" are a load of shit, which is why I've not even read about any of it, anywhere. That's why I said "I can't believe". ME. My personal opinion.

I really like how you seem to think whatever you say goes.

[Finnegan]

You talk to me like I'm 12.

I think these "demonstrations" are a load of shit, which is why I've not even read about any of it, anywhere. That's why I said "I can't believe". ME. My personal opinion.

I really like how you seem to think whatever you say goes.

I don't. I would have thought that that's quite obviously why I like having debates with Thracian, Webbo and co'? If what I say goes I'd just lock all of these threads making sure to get the last word in.

I've no greivance with you at all, Bert, and if you think I'm being condescending then I apologize. I just took your post to be another one of those "what a pointless thread" posts which usually pop up around the place when a rather long thread emerges talking about politics or the news (as opposed to chebs or What are you <x> right now.)

If that wasn't the case then my bad.

[Webbo]

Sure. But I don't really think the credit crunch is the only thing wrong with a capitalist system.

I think the fact that half of Shaq O'Neal's monthly expenditure could probably bring an entire neighbourhood in his native New Jersey out from below the poverty line is what's "wrong" with capitalism and I think that's pretty fairly attributed to greed.

What's wrong with that neighbourhood earning it's own way out of poverty?

[Bert]

I know this isn't a pointless thread. But only to the people that actually care about stuff like this.

Many people raise good points in threads like these because they have an interest or knowledge of some sort in stuff like this, whereas I don't.

[Finnegan]

What's wrong with that neighbourhood earning it's own way out of poverty?

Sorry. I forgot all poor people are only poor because they're lazy.

[Webbo]

Sorry. I forgot all poor people are only poor because they're lazy.

I never mentioned lazy, but perhaps you can educate me to the real reasons.

[Finnegan]

I never mentioned lazy, but perhaps you can educate me to the real reasons.

Better yet - you educate me on the means they should be using to get out of their situation.

Oh - and while you're at it can you can tell me what Shaq does exactly that's worth $121m a year?

[Webbo]

Better yet - you educate me on the means they should be using to get out of their situation.

I asked first.

Oh - and while you're at it can you can tell me what Shaq does exactly that's worth $121m a year?

I'm guessing that 'Shaq' is a basketball player. If so I'd think he's paid that because he sells tickets, trainers and other apparel . I doubt that the people paying him that money are making a loss on the deal.

[Finnegan]

I'm guessing that 'Shaq' is a basketball player. If so I'd think he's paid that because he sells tickets, trainers and other apparel . I doubt that the people paying him that money are making a loss on the deal.

And you think that's an appropriate amount for someone to be paid for... well anything, to be honest?

I sincerely don't get it, really.

No doubt people will question my integrity and tell me it's easy to make statements like this when you're not in a position of wealth - but I honestly can't imagine having countless millions and not doing something "just" with a massive majority of it. I don't really get turned on by the idea of a swanky, glamorous lifestyle. Y'know all this 'bling' and dollar dollar stuff just seems tacky to me. Tacky or stuffy.

How does Bill Gates switch on the news and watch mass poverty and disease the world over and not feel the compulsion to just... help? It really absolutely baffles me. I'm not really meaning to pass judgement on the like of him because I fully admit it's just something I don't understand. But I can't even get my head around two or three million pounds, let alone a billion. You can't EVER spend that.

[Webbo]

And you think that's an appropriate amount for someone to be paid for... well anything, to be honest?

I sincerely don't get it, really.

No doubt people will question my integrity and tell me it's easy to make statements like this when you're not in a position of wealth - but I honestly can't imagine having countless millions and not doing something "just" with a massive majority of it. I don't really get turned on by the idea of a swanky, glamorous lifestyle. Y'know all this 'bling' and dollar dollar stuff just seems tacky to me. Tacky or stuffy.

I couldn't care less what he earns, if his money was halved tomorrow I wouldn't be a single penny better off. Good luck to him, I'm sure all the money he spends is keeping people in work.

How does Bill Gates switch on the news and watch mass poverty and disease the world over and not feel the compulsion to just... help? It really absolutely baffles me. I'm not really meaning to pass judgement on the like of him because I fully admit it's just something I don't understand. But I can't even get my head around two or three million pounds, let alone a billion. You can't EVER spend that.

Wiki

The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation (B&MGF) is the largest transparently operated[3] private foundation in the world, founded by Bill and Melinda Gates. The primary aims of the foundation are, globally, to enhance healthcare and reduce extreme poverty, and in America, to expand educational opportunities and access to information technology. The foundation, based in Seattle, Washington, is controlled by its three trustees: Bill Gates, Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett. Other principal officers include Co-Chair William H. Gates, Sr. and Chief Executive Officer Jeff Raikes. It has an endowment of US$35.1 billion as of October 1, 2008.[2] The scale of the foundation and the way it seeks to apply business techniques to giving makes it one of the leaders in the philanthrocapitalism revolution in global philanthropy.[4] In 2007 its founders were ranked as the second most generous philanthropists in America.[5]

[Finnegan]

Sure - but what have they actually done? And what percentage of his actual assets does he use?

Like I said, I'm not especially passing judgement (and I appreciate he wasn't the best example of human greed, in fact he was probably the worst haha) but you see absolute monoliths of wealth in most nations around the globe with more money than they will ever, ever spend in their lifetime but seemingly bountiful apathy for staggering degrees of global suffering.

[l444ry]

G20 protesters fail to cause riot in London

Protesters have hit the streets in London as the G20 leaders gather to solve the world's problems. The protesters came from a number of different groups but all had the same hypocritical message.

Protesters against the bank smashed the windows of offices of the publicly-owned RBS bank, and complained about money being wasted.

Anarchists congratulated themselves on a well-organised demonstration.

Anti-globalists were especially well prepared, having used the internet to coordinate their protest - some of them had travelled from as far away as Australia to protest.

Anti-capitalists caused a roaring trade in protest banner production and in sales of felt pens and paper.

Climate change protesters were pleased that the weather held out.

[Webbo]

It has an endowment of US$35.1 billion as of October 1, 2008.[2] The scale of the foundation and the way it seeks to apply business techniques to giving makes it one of the leaders in the philanthrocapitalism revolution in global philanthropy.[4] In 2007 its founders were ranked as the second most generous philanthropists in America.

$35 billion and only the second most generous.Who's the first?

[Finnegan]

$35 billion and only the second most generous.Who's the first?

Probably Warren Buffet - but he's another one. Yes, he's given simply staggering amounts to Bill Gates' fund but he's still sitting on another 25-odd-BILLION.

Can you even get your head around that? I honestly can't. How is 25billion even written numerically? I couldn't tell you. Monk?

[Monk]

I just saw Obama's motorcade leave the Excel Centre. I was 10 ft from his armoured car, that thing is immense! Pretty cool got a couple of blurry photos I'll put up.