Plod brutality

[Zingari]

On the evidence presented, rightly so.

It would have made the situation infinitely worse. If I'd watched people die before my eyes, in part because (allegedly) plod stopped ambulance crews from entering the stadium to treat the injured, I wouldn't respond too kindly to cowardly thugs wading in with batons.

In any case, the police didn't have the numbers to be as aggressive as that. It might be appropriate when dealing with a few hundred Millwall yobs. But a crowd of 50000 is a different matter entirely.

You misunderstand me , i wasn't talking about the police using batons inside the ground .

I meant if the police had used batons on the crowd "outside" the ground to prevent them from getting in . Thus, preventing them from causing the crush .

We are not talking about 50,000 here , only a few thousand as most of the crowd was already inside .

If they had done that, then the tradgedy would not have occurred ( of course, easy to see after the event ) and Im merely stating that had the police have done what I said , they would have been accused of brutality to the crowd outside .

The tradgedy would not have happened but , of course We would not know that

hope this makes sense as i've only a few minutes to explain

[lou]

OK......... having viewed the video Im not condoning the Policemans actions, BUT I know if I was faced with big bloke with a baton drawn in a very tense situation such as this was, the sensible part of my brain would be telling me that being confrontational and screaming abuse in his face probably isnt the best idea. Its pretty much guaranteed to provoke a reaction thats not going to be to my liking. Again Im not saying it was right, but what he does is what they are trained to do.... hit at the side of the knee to take down a "threat" without causing any serious injury and preferable to clouting her over the head with it! Whether this lady was actually a threat is more debatable but I suppose in the heat of the moment and faced with a mob of them he clearly made an error in judgement. Adrenaline would have been pumping on both sides of the coin.

My view is I suppose that yes, he over did it but she shouldnt have been in his face screaming abuse either. Ive certainly seen far worse cases of police "brutality" than this.

[Alexikokopops]

You misunderstand me , i wasn't talking about the police using batons inside the ground .

I meant if the police had used batons on the crowd "outside" the ground to prevent them from getting in . Thus, preventing them from causing the crush .

We are not talking about 50,000 here , only a few thousand as most of the crowd was already inside .

If they had done that, then the tradgedy would not have occurred ( of course, easy to see after the event ) and Im merely stating that had the police have done what I said , they would have been accused of brutality to the crowd outside .

The tradgedy would not have happened but , of course We would not know that

hope this makes sense as i've only a few minutes to explain

But the only reason the crowd got in so quickly was because the police opened one of the exit gates Before that the crowd was slowly progressing through the few turnstiles. Police swinging batons wouldn't have made a difference.

[Zingari]

But the only reason the crowd got in so quickly was because the police opened one of the exit gates Before that the crowd was slowly progressing through the few turnstiles. Police swinging batons wouldn't have made a difference.

my understanding was that the crowd was getting very aggressive with the police and a decision was made to open the gates to prevent confrontation .

Had they have carried on letting them in at a trickle ( even though this may have caused a riot outside the ground )the problem would not have been allowed to develop . It would have been evident earlier that a problem was arising .

It was the sheer volume of the crowd coming in , uncontrolled and swarming that caused the mayhem .

but as i said before , it is easy in hindsight .

[Alexikokopops]

my understanding was that the crowd was getting very aggressive with the police and a decision was made to open the gates to prevent confrontation .

Had they have carried on letting them in at a trickle ( even though this may have caused a riot outside the ground )the problem would not have been allowed to develop . It would have been evident earlier that a problem was arising .

It was the sheer volume of the crowd coming in , uncontrolled and swarming that caused the mayhem .

but as i said before , it is easy in hindsight .

Ah, fair enough. My understanding was that there was just a huge whack of them outside and so the police opened the gates to get them all in for kick-off.

[Edmund]

There is no excuse for people behaving like animals while protesting

[Zingari]

Ah, fair enough. My understanding was that there was just a huge whack of them outside and so the police opened the gates to get them all in for kick-off.

i don't think the police outside were unduly concerned that the fans may miss the game

[Dr The Singh]

my understanding was that the crowd was getting very aggressive with the police and a decision was made to open the gates to prevent confrontation .

Had they have carried on letting them in at a trickle ( even though this may have caused a riot outside the ground )the problem would not have been allowed to develop . It would have been evident earlier that a problem was arising .

It was the sheer volume of the crowd coming in , uncontrolled and swarming that caused the mayhem .

but as i said before , it is easy in hindsight .

That's a fair reflection of what probably happened. It just shows how important crowd control actually is, it's evident the police were unprepared!!!!

[Head Honcho]

There are witnesses claiming he was also hit multiple times with a baton.

There are also several witnesses claiming he was being a right royal pain in the arse before the incident.

Tragic as it is and sensational the film may be you have to ask what was he doing in the area in the first place if it wasn't to be a fvcking nuisance.

[Alexikokopops]

Ah, fair enough. My understanding was that there was just a huge whack of them outside and so the police opened the gates to get them all in for kick-off.

i don't think the police outside were unduly concerned that the fans may miss the game

because they knew it would kick off if people didn't get in by kick-off

So in a roundabout way our views are similar, except you thought it had already started kicking off and I thought the police were just anticipating it

[Ultra]

There are also several witnesses claiming he was being a right royal pain in the arse before the incident.

Tragic as it is and sensational the film may be you have to ask what was he doing in the area in the first place if it wasn't to be a fvcking nuisance.

Didn't he work there, as a paper-seller?

I'm sure it will all come out at the inquest..(not)

[Jon the Hat]

my understanding was that the crowd was getting very aggressive with the police and a decision was made to open the gates to prevent confrontation .

Had they have carried on letting them in at a trickle ( even though this may have caused a riot outside the ground )the problem would not have been allowed to develop . It would have been evident earlier that a problem was arising .

It was the sheer volume of the crowd coming in , uncontrolled and swarming that caused the mayhem .

but as i said before , it is easy in hindsight .

I think they opened the gates becuase people were getting crushed outside. The main problems were a) stand allocation based on traffic to the ground rather than into it. b) Failure to control the pressure of people further away from the ground c) failure to direct people to the side pens when they went in - so all went into one tunnel. The failure to deal with the resulting crush should shame everyone in authority who was there, and those who signed off the construction of the fences, plus the thugs who gave them the ammunition to do so. Those who glorify the fighting in those days should bear that in mind.

[Jon the Hat]

More or less.

Trouble is - he'll be the only one who has anything come of it whereas she will still be receiving her trust fund and smearing excrement on the door handles of Daddy's friends' 4x4s.

He is in a position of authority and deserves to face the investigation. At least he did not have a black mask over his face like the other guy. The police need to be hled accountable for their actions, whether while policing a football match or a demonstration.

[Zingari]

He is in a position of authority and deserves to face the investigation. At least he did not have a black mask over his face like the other guy. The police need to be hled accountable for their actions, whether while policing a football match or a demonstration.

true, but if they are issued batons to control crowds and/or protect , then at some point it seems obvious they will be used .

the only thing he did wrong was to be filmed

[lou]

Shes signed up with Max Clifford apparently according to the Metro.

[James.]

Shes signed up with Max Clifford apparently according to the Metro.

Something a little hypocritical about a demonstrator trying to make money out these protests isn't there...

[Jon the Hat]

true, but if they are issued batons to control crowds and/or protect , then at some point it seems obvious they will be used .

the only thing he did wrong was to be filmed

So it is ok to beat members of the public if you are not caught? Ridiculous. If his actions do not stand up to inspection then he should not have hit the woman. She is about half the size of him, and what exactly could she possibly say to him to make him feel threatened? Are we now saying the Police are empowered to attack people before they are physically threatened to protect themseves? Just becuase they have the tools?

Something a little hypocritical about a demonstrator trying to make money out these protests isn't there...

Perhaps she is more interested in the publicity. Max is rather good at raising the profile of issues.

[davieG]

I think they opened the gates becuase people were getting crushed outside. The main problems were a) stand allocation based on traffic to the ground rather than into it. b) Failure to control the pressure of people further away from the ground c) failure to direct people to the side pens when they went in - so all went into one tunnel. The failure to deal with the resulting crush should shame everyone in authority who was there, and those who signed off the construction of the fences, plus the thugs who gave them the ammunition to do so. Those who glorify the fighting in those days should bear that in mind.

And there's been a fair bit of that on here. I seem to remember the guy that signed up as 'Baby squad' had some sycophantic support at the time of posting and a fair few revelling at the thought of a good punch up.

[lou]

Perhaps she is more interested in the publicity. Max is rather good at raising the profile of issues.

According to the Metro she wants a "paid-for interview" so I suspect shes just after the money.

[Alexikokopops]

Something a little hypocritical about a demonstrator trying to make money out these protests isn't there...

According to the Metro she wants a "paid-for interview" so I suspect shes just after the money.

Apparantly she was an animal rights person who was protesting about global warming issues/environment etc, not against capitalism.

[James.]

Apparantly she was an animal rights person who was protesting about global warming issues/environment etc, not against capitalism.

Yeah, well, Max Clifford is a renowned horse raper.

She's a HYPOCRITE.

[lou]

Apparantly she was an animal rights person who was protesting about global warming issues/environment etc, not against capitalism.

Fair enough but if she felt so strongly about animal rights etc why doesnt she do an interview for nothing?

Apart from that Id have thought doing an interview would jeopardise any possible inquiry or legal action against the Police?

[Alexikokopops]

Fair enough but if she felt so strongly about animal rights etc why doesnt she do an interview for nothing?

How does getting money for an interview affect her views on animal rights? If it was an interview about animal rights then yeah, she probably should, but it's not about the protest anymore. It's about the fact she got a shift back of the hand and a boom to the leg.

[lou]

How does getting money for an interview affect her views on animal rights? If it was an interview about animal rights then yeah, she probably should, but it's not about the protest anymore. It's about the fact she got a shift back of the hand and a boom to the leg.

If shes wanting to get some justice for whats happened to her Id have thought doing interviews in the press via Max Clifford wasnt the right way to do it? Id have sought proper legal advice - not tried to make a fast buck off it AND earn Clifford a wage in the process.

[Zingari]

So it is ok to beat members of the public if you are not caught? Ridiculous. If his actions do not stand up to inspection then he should not have hit the woman. She is about half the size of him, and what exactly could she possibly say to him to make him feel threatened? Are we now saying the Police are empowered to attack people before they are physically threatened to protect themseves? Just becuase they have the tools?

Perhaps she is more interested in the publicity. Max is rather good at raising the profile of issues.

what if this situation had arose at a BNP rally and if she was chanting racist and threatening abuse , would it change your opinions on the police action towards her ?

i'm not implying she was , but the police cannot be expected to take considerations such as size, gender etc , when dealing with crowds . nor the rights and wrongs of the protest , if they are asked to move away several times and do not, they can expect rough treatment , male, female , big or small

anyway , no doubt there will be an inquest and it will be resolved .

we aren't ever likely to agree fully on this