The Rooney Rule

[Jimothy]

What should worry us more than a lack of managers of a certain skin colour is the lack of English managers, certain towards the top of the game. Going forward as a football loving nation that's got to be a worry. We're not producing good managers whatever colour skin they have.

[Jordan]

So how do you know race was the reason he failed to get interviews? Maybe he was shooting too high too early. We just don't know, and that just one example anyway. Plus earlier you were saying they wouldn't apply because they perceived people would prejudice them so they didn't see the point. You can't use both arguments.

I've just checked something anyway. 5% of the the league managers are black, 3% of the population as a whole is a black. There's actually a over representation of black people in football management.

I really think you ought to just try to forget everything you "know" about this "Rooney rule," go back, reread what it's all about and why it's being implemented.

[The Horse's Mouth]

So how do you know race was the reason he failed to get interviews? Maybe he was shooting too high too early. We just don't know, and that just one example anyway. Plus earlier you were saying they wouldn't apply because they perceived people would prejudice them so they didn't see the point. You can't use both arguments.

I've just checked something anyway. 5% of the the league managers are black, 3% of the population as a whole is a black. There's actually a over representation of black people in football management.

wow

[Jimothy]

Ok so that's fine then, clearly no problems at all exist.

There might be a problem, there might not, there's no proof and that's the point. People should name name if they are so sure of discrimination but they won't. Even you example above is a nameless example, wouldn't even disclose the applicant let alone the racist clubs names. Until we start getting proof there's s problem rather then just murmurings of disgruntled people not prepared to speak out properly I don't think we can start forcing clubs to do anything.

[Jimothy]

I really think you ought to just try to forget everything you "know" about this "Rooney rule," go back, reread what it's all about and why it's being implemented.

It's being implemented to try and increases the amounts of black people getting interviews and managers jobs in football. I'm totally against any kind of positive discrimination, just like I mentioned earlier regarding women in politics. I'm not so naive to think racism no longer exists but I also don't think in a cut throat world of football with all the millions involved that a club would turn down a brilliant applicant based on skin colour, well certainly not the vast majority of clubs which is what is being suggested.

[Dan]

Sol Campbell wasn't made England captain because it's clear the bloke has next to zero bottle, great as he was. Chastise Terry all you want but there's no denying that on the pitch he's unflappable.

 

Campbell was a fantastic defender but mentally he'd have never been up to it.

 

And that he's got a loser mentality (ie blames every shortcoming on his race rather than his lack of capability).

[Stadt]

I think women should be included I the Rooney rule, clearly there no enough female managers and clubs are so sexist for not choosing them

[Dan]

 

Well, that's the best bit of evidence I've seen yet, but still not enough. Did he get any feedback on why he missed out?

I've just checked something anyway. 5% of the the league managers are black, 3% of the population as a whole is a black. There's actually a over representation of black people in football management.

 

25% players as well. Don't hear any complaints about it though and rightly so. They're there on merit. (Well, mostly...)

[Jordan]

It's being implemented to try and increases the amounts of black people getting interviews and managers jobs in football. I'm totally against any kind of positive discrimination, just like I mentioned earlier regarding women in politics. I'm not so naive to think racism no longer exists but I also don't think in a cut throat world of football with all the millions involved that a club would turn down a brilliant applicant based on skin colour, well certainly not the vast majority of clubs which is what is being suggested.

"Positive discrimination"

[Jimothy]

"Positive discrimination"

What kind of response is that? If you want to discuss something taking two word out of my post and putting quotation marks around them doesn't really help you make any kind of a point.

I don't think positive discrimination works, and I don't like the idea we HAVE to increase numbers of certain people in certain roles rather than just hoping we have the best in those roles no matter what colour, sex, sexuality etc. The reason I think it doesn't work is that if there is institutionalised racism in football, forcing institutionalised racist to interview a black man is totally pointless. It'll be a going through the motions process and they still won't get the job. If we really want things to change we need to start weeding out the racists, name them, disgrace them, punish them. Forcing them to talk to them won't stop them being racist.

[Captain...]

What happens if for instance Paul Ince keeps going for interviews at top premiership clubs and he doesn't get the job. Will clubs then be accused of being racist?

Let's remember Paul Ince was a premier league manager, he was shit, he then managed in the champioship, he was also not very good, him getting these jobs had more to do with his name than skin colour or ability.

He is not the only black manager to fail in the PL he is also not the only English manager to fail in the league and disappear to the lower leagues because he's not very good at his job.

[ChrisFilter]

Why is there a debate? The Rooney Rule has worked in the U.S. so why not try it here?

[the zorro]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3113360/Chelsea-s-black-player-Paul-Canoville-criticises-Rooney-Rule-proposals-Football-League.html

[the zorro]

Why is there a debate? The Rooney Rule has worked in the U.S. so why not try it here?

 

For me, the key point is someone is guaranteed an interview simply because of their ethnic background.

 

That's fundamentally wrong.

 

 I am in no way racist, or prejudicial, I just believe that a person should be employed for their skills. In any walk of life.

 

Football is a multi billion pound industry. Owners of clubs are generally very intelligent people who have made a hell of a lot of money in a field they expertise in.

 

They aren't going to to turn down someone who can move their business forward and increase their revenue solely on the colour of skin.

 

 This might sound ridiculous, but it puts my point across - Should Chinese take aways have to interview a white person to fill a chefs job?

 

I don't have figures to back it up, but I'd estimate 99% of Chinese chefs come from a Chinese background.

 

80% of people who order Chinese food are probably non Chinese.

 

I don't like those percentages.

[Captain...]

What should worry us more than a lack of managers of a certain skin colour is the lack of English managers, certain towards the top of the game. Going forward as a football loving nation that's got to be a worry. We're not producing good managers whatever colour skin they have.

I think there were only 5 English managers in the PL last season and one of them was black.

It is not just the Prem the lower leagues are littered with foreign managers, it is clear that clubs won't discriminate against anyone who is good enough.

The problem for prospective black managers is possibly a lack of role models, every black manager at the top level has failed.

I think if the FA want to increase the number of black managers they should encourage more black English and Asian English and white English to do their coaching badges and not just high profile former players normal people who have a passion and a desire. Target lower income areas and get more people qualified no problem having a target quota for these courses.

The Rooney rule is irrelevant clubs are not discriminating they have targets in mind and having any sort of interview process isn't normally not necessary. Could you imagine if United had to interview a black manager after Fergie retired, Moyes was already the chosen one, they could have interviewed every black person in the world they still would have appointed Moyes. This will be the same at all levels of the game clubs needing a manager will either have a target or promote from within. The best way to tackle this is to get more black coaches qualified to the highest level.

[ChrisFilter]

For me, the key point is someone is guaranteed an interview simply because of their ethnic background.

That's fundamentally wrong.

I am in no way racist, or prejudicial, I just believe that a person should be employed for their skills. In any walk of life.

Football is a multi billion pound industry. Owners of clubs are generally very intelligent people who have made a hell of a lot of money in a field they expertise in.

They aren't going to to turn down someone who can move their business forward and increase their revenue solely on the colour of skin.

This might sound ridiculous, but it puts my point across - Should Chinese take aways have to interview a white person to fill a chefs job?

I don't have figures to back it up, but I'd estimate 99% of Chinese chefs come from a Chinese background.

80% of people who order Chinese food are probably non Chinese.

I don't like those percentages.

I understand your point, but sometimes hidden barriers have to be forcibly torn down to get past centuries of prejudice. Most Brits probably now like to think they're unprejudiced but the reality is that we are.

There have been 17 black and Hispanic NFL managers since it was introduced. There had been only been 7 before. What harm can it do to try it here?

[Captain...]

Why is there a debate? The Rooney Rule has worked in the U.S. so why not try it here?

Because this isn't the US and it isn't American football. We have a game flooded with foreigners a large proportion of black players in the football leagues are foreign they go back home after playing football. I would be pretty confident saying that there were a lot more black Americans playing American football in America than black Englishmen playing football in England at a professional level.

[the zorro]

I'm not going to work out the average age of Football League managers, but what I would say is that 25 years ago, the percentage of black players would be significantly lower than it is today.

 

In 25 years, we will have more black managers than we do now. I honestly think it's that simple.

 

But nobody should get an interview based on race, sex, disability, sexual preference.......

[ChrisFilter]

Because this isn't the US and it isn't American football. We have a game flooded with foreigners a large proportion of black players in the football leagues are foreign they go back home after playing football. I would be pretty confident saying that there were a lot more black Americans playing American football in America than black Englishmen playing football in England at a professional level.

I think you're probably right. But, again, what harm can it do? It's not forcing anyone to hire black managers. It's just giving black candidates an opportunity to have an interview.

[Jimothy]

I think you're probably right. But, again, what harm can it do? It's not forcing anyone to hire black managers. It's just giving black candidates an opportunity to have an interview.

As I said in a previous post forcing clubs to interview them won't sort any problem if we do have a racism problem. If the clubs are racist they still won't hire them even once they interview them. The Rooney Rule won't end racism and probably won't increase the amount of blank managers if we do have a racism problem, it'll just see more of them rejected after interviews. The only way to sort a racism problem is to name, shame and punish those discriminating.

[Captain...]

I understand your point, but sometimes hidden barriers have to be forcibly torn down to get past centuries of prejudice. Most Brits probably now like to think they're unprejudiced but the reality is that we are.

There have been 17 black and Hispanic NFL managers since it was introduced. There had been only been 7 before. What harm can it do to try it here?

The whole concept is flawed because clubs don't have an interview process for managers, they have a target, that target is picked based on numerous factors and I doubt race is one of them, sometimes that target has a job and can't just come for an interview, they also need to keep any "interviews" out of the press so forcing the club to conduct superfluous interviews could undermine the existing manager and the target manager.

[ChrisFilter]

As I said in a previous post forcing clubs to interview them won't sort any problem if we do have a racism problem. If the clubs are racist they still won't hire them even once they interview them. The Rooney Rule won't end racism and probably won't increase the amount of blank managers if we do have a racism problem, it'll just see more of them rejected after interviews. The only way to sort a racism problem is to name, shame and punish those discriminating.

The rule isn't there because of overt Malky MacKay-esque racism. It's there because of the hidden prejudice that resides in most people.

I still haven't seen a solid argument as to the harm it could do.

[ChrisFilter]

The whole concept is flawed because clubs don't have an interview process for managers, they have a target, that target is picked based on numerous factors and I doubt race is one of them, sometimes that target has a job and can't just come for an interview, they also need to keep any "interviews" out of the press so forcing the club to conduct superfluous interviews could undermine the existing manager and the target manager.

Sometimes clubs have a target. Sometimes they have interview shortlists. Interviewing one more candidate won't hurt anyone.

[Captain...]

I'm not going to work out the average age of Football League managers, but what I would say is that 25 years ago, the percentage of black players would be significantly lower than it is today.

In 25 years, we will have more black managers than we do now. I honestly think it's that simple.

But nobody should get an interview based on race, sex, disability, sexual preference.......

I would agree with this too, when it comes to management experience is key and it is a vicious circle that a manager can't get a job because he has no experience but he can't experience if he can't a job. That is why you will see the same old faces in the lower leagues and not much opportunities for young managers especially with the steady and ever increasing influx of foreign managers.

[the zorro]

The rule isn't there because of overt Malky MacKay-esque racism. It's there because of the hidden prejudice that resides in most people.

I still haven't seen a solid argument as to the harm it could do.

 

It's discrimination!

 

The whole point of it is to attempt to eradicate racism, but it's actually promoting it!!!!

 

You have to interview someone based on the colour of their skin.

 

You couldn't make it up.