The Rooney Rule

[Captain...]

Sometimes clubs have a target. Sometimes they have interview shortlists. Interviewing one more candidate won't hurt anyone.

If you are interviewing a load of people then I don't see an issue but if you are trying to line up a manager of another club to replace your manager then discretion is key, and if you have to conduct superfluous interviews then it could cause all kinds of problems.

[Corky]

I think there were only 5 English managers in the PL last season and one of them was black.

 

 

Pearson, Warnock, Pardew, Carver, Allardyce, Bruce, Redknapp, Ramsey, Dyche, Monk and Sherwood all managed in the Premier League last season. Then you've got Welsh, Irish and Scottish managers like Pulis, Rodgers, Hughes, Irvine, Lambert who all led a club in the top flight.

 

The lower leagues aren't littered with foreign managers, currently Hasselbaink, Karanka, Dijkhuisen and Luzon are the non-British managers in the lower divisions. Out of 92 League clubs, 79 are managed by a British manager.

[Captain...]

Pearson, Warnock, Pardew, Carver, Allardyce, Bruce, Redknapp, Ramsey, Dyche, Monk and Sherwood all managed in the Premier League last season. Then you've got Welsh, Irish and Scottish managers like Pulis, Rodgers, Hughes, Irvine, Lambert who all led a club in the top flight.

The lower leagues aren't littered with foreign managers, currently Hasselbaink, Karanka, Dijkhuisen and Luzon are the non-British managers in the lower divisions. Out of 92 League clubs, 79 are managed by a British manager.

I think it was 5 left after Dyche, Ramsey and Bruce got relegated and Allardyce got sacked.

Monk, Pardew, Pearson, Sherwood, Carver(who is also going).

I am specifically talking about English as the figure is embarrassing.

You've missed a couple Moniz and Rossler, but it is actually fewer than I thought, but we've had the likes of Felix Magath, Solebaken, Garcia, milanic, Sanino and more in the last few years.

[the zorro]

Out of interest, does anyone know any figures for European leagues?

 

I've tried Googling it, but drawn a blank.

 

Off the top off my head, I'm wondering if the Dutch and French leagues have similar figures to ourselves. Both countries are ethnically diverse and have had a good representation of black players at international level.

 

Judging by the fact that America felt the need to introduce the Rooney rule, I'd imagine ethnic minorities are under represented in a lot of sports across the world.

 

This raises the question if ambition is there. Sorry if this sounds like a generalisation, but going back to the point that Jason Roberts complains about the lack of black managers, but doesn't want to be a manager.

 

As mentioned before, it's probably a generation issue. Give it 20 years.

[theessexfox]

I think it was 5 left after Dyche, Ramsey and Bruce got relegated and Allardyce got sacked.

Monk, Pardew, Pearson, Sherwood, Carver(who is also going).

I am specifically talking about English as the figure is embarrassing

If you take out Dyche, Ramsey and Bruce you have to put in Eddie Howe and Alex Neil (Scottish I know) 

[Captain...]

If you take out Dyche, Ramsey and Bruce you have to put in Eddie Howe and Alex Neil (Scottish I know)

Adding Howe and let's say McLaren at Newcastle that will be at most 6 English managers at the start of the PL next season.

[theessexfox]

Adding Howe and let's say McLaren at Newcastle that will be at most 6 English managers at the start of the PL next season.

Not sure why you'd count the English not the British though, gives a much different spin on the situation. 

[Captain...]

Not sure why you'd count the English not the British though, gives a much different spin on the situation.

Because it is the English league, and English football is in a dire state, the lack of top flight English managers and players is embarrassing.

[theessexfox]

Because it is the English league, and English football is in a dire state, the lack of top flight English managers and players is embarrassing.

But what does the manager situation matter anyway? Players, yes, because it affects our national team, but what's wrong with about a third of the managers English and over half of them British? 

[Jordan]

What kind of response is that? If you want to discuss something taking two word out of my post and putting quotation marks around them doesn't really help you make any kind of a point.

I don't think positive discrimination works, and I don't like the idea we HAVE to increase numbers of certain people in certain roles rather than just hoping we have the best in those roles no matter what colour, sex, sexuality etc. The reason I think it doesn't work is that if there is institutionalised racism in football, forcing institutionalised racist to interview a black man is totally pointless. It'll be a going through the motions process and they still won't get the job. If we really want things to change we need to start weeding out the racists, name them, disgrace them, punish them. Forcing them to talk to them won't stop them being racist.

I admit, I'm being a dick, but I'm gonna respond to you provocatively because "positive discrimination" is such a buzzword. It means nothing, and there's nothing "positive" about "discrimination."

I don't think the issue is "institutional" (and that goes for proponents of the rule as well as opponents). If there were real institutional racism against black managers, you would have Oliver Jennings-Greaves and Wiford Cropley III drinking gin in a stuffy boardroom talking about how the blackies are ruining football, and devising ways that Football League clubs like Hartlepools United and Swansea Town would never hire a blackie to manage their first team squads. If you want your opinions taken seriously, you ought to stop using terms like "positive discrimination."

The fact that the League itself (with blessing of its members) is implementing this shows that "institutional racism" is going the way of the dinosaur.

The "Rooney Rule" gives neither an advantage nor a disadvantage to anybody. Nobody gets a job interview at the expense of anyone else, and the most deserving candidate should still win the job. A black guy that has no business getting a manager job is still going to be rejected, but a black manager candidate that wouldn't otherwise get considered yet who still impresses the board will still earn a job "on merit."

The bigger issue here is that folks here and elsewhere say that persons get overlooked when looking for football manager jobs because they don't deserve it "on merit," are those same folks being confronted with stats that show black ex-pros and ex-footballers are underrepresented in the coaching ranks compared to their white cohorts, and are those same folks tripping over themselves to try to make the same "merit" argument.

How can you explain that black/minority ex-pros want coaching jobs just as much as anyone else, yet are still underrepresented in the FL/FA coaching ranks?

P.S. This issue isn't about Paul ****ing Ince

[My Nads]

It's the definition of racism! If the rule makes you interview someone solely on their race, it's racist in the truest scene of the word. 

[Danno]

It's the definition of racism! If the rule makes you interview someone solely on their race, it's racist in the truest scene of the word.

It's really not though is it.

[Captain...]

But what does the manager situation matter anyway? Players, yes, because it affects our national team, but what's wrong with about a third of the managers English and over half of them British? 

 

Because that also affects out national team, we should have an English manager, but to get back on topic it also shows the diversity within the game, would it solve anything to force premier league clubs to interview an English manager for every vacancy? No because the issue isn't race or nationality but quality and forcing pointless interviews will not solve anything but improving coaching standards and opportunities in England might.

[bovril]

It's the definition of racism! If the rule makes you interview someone solely on their race, it's racist in the truest scene of the word. 

 

The definition of racism is believing that certain races are superior or inferior to others. This is just trying to help minorities get coaching roles.

[the zorro]

The definition of racism is believing that certain races are superior or inferior to others. This is just trying to help minorities get coaching roles.

 

By definition, you're correct.

 

It's certainly discrimination though.

 

discrimination

dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. 1.

   the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

[Danno]

By definition, you're correct.

It's certainly discrimination though.

discrimination

dɪˌskrɪmɪˈneɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

• 1.

  the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Jesus ****ing christ

[Guest MattP]

Bizarre, to in any way suggest we have the same problems with race relations as America as implementing things like this does leaves me a little bewildered.

 

Some serious irony in this as well, sending black people for interviews to jobs they can't get just so a few guilt ridden soppy (often already made it and quite well off) white liberals can announce to the World that they aren't racist, the time and expense people will have to go to for something that a lot of the time will actually be totally pointless and a waste of everybody's time. Appaling.

 

What Babs said came across my mind as well, this will have to change the way clubs recruit, a lot of clubs have already identified and got their target having agreed before the interview process even starts, a lot of clubs don't even have them - Will they have to give Paul Ince a ring and ask him to come in even if they are ready to appoint the new manager as soon as they have dismissed the current one?

 

If they want more black representation in management positions fair enough but there has to be a better way than this. Leave this nonsense and tokenism to the Americans, if there is a country in the World we shouldn't be following in combating race relations they would be near the top.

[Number 6]

This seems a bit backwards to me but the practice goes on elsewhere, e.g. university places for people from certain backgrounds. These measures are put in place to rectify 'problems' but it seems like trying to have two wrongs make a right.

Can also see clubs getting round it too as a lot of the time, they know who they want. For example, could we 'interview' Top for any managerial position we have? Seems a bit farcical, despite the good intentions.

On top of this, why does every profession have to be completely representative of the population as a whole? I certainly don't agree with anyone being turned away for race reasons and ideally the best person for the job would always get it, but we don't have to have the perfect representation of the UK in football managers.

I guess what annoys me is that people potentially are turned away due to race and it saddens me that this still occurs. Just not sure this is the solution.

[Captain...]

This seems a bit backwards to me but the practice goes on elsewhere, e.g. university places for people from certain backgrounds. These measures are put in place to rectify 'problems' but it seems like trying to have two wrongs make a right.

Can also see clubs getting round it too as a lot of the time, they know who they want. For example, could we 'interview' Top for any managerial position we have? Seems a bit farcical, despite the good intentions.

On top of this, why does every profession have to be completely representative of the population as a whole? I certainly don't agree with anyone being turned away for race reasons and ideally the best person for the job would always get it, but we don't have to have the perfect representation of the UK in football managers.

I guess what annoys me is that people potentially are turned away due to race and it saddens me that this still occurs. Just not sure this is the solution.

 

Interviewing Top would be a bit far, but it really wouldn't surprise me if, had this rule been in place, West Ham had interviewed Carlton Cole for the job, before appointing Bilic, then releasing Cole anyway. Of course there is the possibility that he interviewed really well, and maybe he would have been offered a place on Bilic's backroom staff, but would Bilic want him?

 

Will this rule apply to coaches and other backroom staff, so when you appoint a manager and wants to bring in his own back room staff, will they need to be interviewed with a black candidate too.

 

Can you imagine Pearson being told you can only have Shakespeare and Walsh if they interview better than a black guy, otherwise you will get the multi ethnic back room staff of our choice.

[kingcarr21]

Here we go again.

 

Dwight Yorke on the radio this morning stating that he doesn't get interviews for manager roles because of his skin colour. Aston Villa was the job he was interested in, and because he played in the Premier League and Championship he feels that that is his level for a manager job . 

 

Surely what he did as a player has little relevance in what he can do as a manager. Why he thinks he can waltz into a prem or championship job ill never know. The presenter was asking why he wouldn't look lower in the leagues or abroad and Dwight says that's not his expertise as he never played there. 

 

Nothing to do with his skin colour. Every year the manager merry go round is happening so when a prem or championship job comes available there are always managers with experience managing prem and championship looking for a job. Its hardly rocket science that clubs like Aston Villa are going to overlook someone with no experience and focus their efforts in getting someone better (Bruce).

 

What do you guys think? Am i wrong in thinking he is having a laugh at believing he should be able to walk into a prem or champ job? His point was that they wouldn't even interview him (with his reasoning being his skin colour). Nothing to do with having no credentials as a manager whatsoever then . Villa were never going to go with an inexperienced manager so why even entertain the idea with an interview?

[RobHawk]

4 minutes ago, kingcarr21 said:

Here we go again.

 

Dwight Yorke on the radio this morning stating that he doesn't get interviews for manager roles because of his skin colour. Aston Villa was the job he was interested in, and because he played in the Premier League and Championship he feels that that is his level for a manager job . 

 

Surely what he did as a player has little relevance in what he can do as a manager. Why he thinks he can waltz into a prem or championship job ill never know. The presenter was asking why he wouldn't look lower in the leagues or abroad and Dwight says that's not his expertise as he never played there. 

 

Nothing to do with his skin colour. Every year the manager merry go round is happening so when a prem or championship job comes available there are always managers with experience managing prem and championship looking for a job. Its hardly rocket science that clubs like Aston Villa are going to overlook someone with no experience and focus their efforts in getting someone better (Bruce).

 

What do you guys think? Am i wrong in thinking he is having a laugh at believing he should be able to walk into a prem or champ job? His point was that they wouldn't even interview him (with his reasoning being his skin colour). Nothing to do with having no credentials as a manager whatsoever then . Villa were never going to go with an inexperienced manager so why even entertain the idea with an interview?

I agree, At the very least you need to start with a youth team or as an assistant or something. He's been out of the game for so long what does he know. Even Giggsy is having trouble getting his first proper job and he was in the backroom staff at Utd for a few years. 

 

Even Tactics Tim was working with the youth team at Spours before they gave him a chance. 

[MarkDeVirus]

After abandoning Katie Price and never being there for his disabled son, Harvey. It's blatant that Dwight can't even look after himself let alone a football team...

[Wymsey]

Thought the Rooney Rule was 'I play wherever I like no matter how rubbish I am'.

[foxy boxing]

2 minutes ago, Wymeswold fox said:

Thought the Rooney Rule was 'I play wherever I like no matter how rubbish I am'.

i thought the Rooney rule was always get picked for England no matter how sh*te i am

[Racingfox]

1 hour ago, MarkDeVirus said:

After abandoning Katie Price and never being there for his disabled son, Harvey. It's blatant that Dwight can't even look after himself let alone a football team...

If he is bored maybe he should take up child care, of his son Harvey , as you say dwight can't look after himself he is a tool