Government spends another £300mill dishing out Laptops and Broadband

[Guest Bilo]

Do you want to know the primary link between kids and learning? It isn't bastard computers.

No one loves tech more than me but it is nothing more than a tool - the kids who fail the education system have more than simply income as an indicator. The unmeasured variable is 'quality of parenting'.

Poor kids don't suffer from a lack of technology or access to an online world, they suffer because they have shit parents. Shit parents who don't turn up to parents' evenings. Or arrive late, reeking of BO and pissed. Shit parents who believe a healthy breakfast consists of a tin of Coke and a packet of crisps. Shit parents who failed in education because of their shit parents.

These people are born into a dependence culture, going from cradle to the grave on handouts devoid of compulsion or incentive to ever do anything different.

This £300,000,000 is nothing more than another expensive gimmick from a government devoid of ideas and deaf to the voices who know how to make education work.

Completely agree with this post.

There is absolutely no reason in this age of technophilia for any child in this country, regardless of family income, to go through school disadvantaged because of a lack of access to IT equipment. Free computer use in public libraries, a proliferation of computer suites in schools and perfectly decent laptops available in Tesco for around the price of a PS3 (which many families seem to find the money for, as Lou has stated) rule that out as an excuse. It's attitude that's the key to academic success, and that's so often wrong in the families that this gimmick targets. The computers will be used to download porn, order shopping from Tesco or may even be sold by some of the shit parents you mention for cigarette/alcohol/drug money. In fact the one thing you can all but guarantee they won't be used for is their intended purpose of education. The last sentence sums it up, this government is in its death throes and this is one of the desperate, pitiful ideas it will use to try to avoid the inevitable.

[BoneDog]

I grew up in a very poor home and I know for a fact that my Mum would not of been able to afford a Laptop let alone the monthly bill to get connected to the internet.

And public libraries don't have enough computers for many kids to use after school. Burton library has about 15 PC's and there are at least 4 high schools in Burton. Plus, why should kids spend all of their spare time studying and travelling to libraries? Surely 6 hours in school a day is enough learning time for a 13 year old if they are listening? With maybe an hours homework chucked in.

I'm not saying that giving computers away is the right thing to do but £300million is hardly a big deal to our government, they make more than that every single day on the tax from alcohol, cigarettes and petrol alone. Much, much more every single day.

The only reason they are cutting £900million from universities is because of the wars. Virtually all our taxes are going towards the cost of fighting in Afghanistan and other covert operations. Our leaders need yours and mine money to fund their empirical schemes, they are not going to continue spending it on making things better for us average citizens. The only thing they are going to do is start to fleece you for more and more, making it harder for you to get by and have any spare cash. Simples

Some poor kids getting a free laptop with a tiny fraction of one days taxes is the least of my worries. I know they might use them for looking at tits and not studying but it keeps them off the streets and maybe stops one from mugging my Gran!

[davieG]

I grew up in a very poor home and I know for a fact that my Mum would not of been able to afford a Laptop let alone the monthly bill to get connected to the internet.

And public libraries don't have enough computers for many kids to use after school. Burton library has about 15 PC's and there are at least 4 high schools in Burton. Plus, why should kids spend all of their spare time studying and travelling to libraries? Surely 6 hours in school a day is enough learning time for a 13 year old if they are listening? With maybe an hours homework chucked in.

I'm not saying that giving computers away is the right thing to do but £300million is hardly a big deal to our government, they make more than that every single day on the tax from alcohol, cigarettes and petrol alone. Much, much more every single day.

The only reason they are cutting £900million from universities is because of the wars. Virtually all our taxes are going towards the cost of fighting in Afghanistan and other covert operations. Our leaders need yours and mine money to fund their empirical schemes, they are not going to continue spending it on making things better for us average citizens. The only thing they are going to do is start to fleece you for more and more, making it harder for you to get by and have any spare cash. Simples

Some poor kids getting a free laptop with a tiny fraction of one days taxes is the least of my worries. I know they might use them for looking at tits and not studying but it keeps them off the streets and maybe stops one from mugging my Gran!

So why do they need free laptops for home?

As for Universities too many people go that don't need to, they'd be better off doing an apprenticeship c/w day release.

[Jon the Hat]

How the hell are these kids supposed to find the library if they cannot look it up on the internet?? DID ANY OF YOU PEOPLE THINK OF THAT? NO.

[davieG]

SatNav much cheaper,

[BoneDog]

So why do they need free laptops for home?

As for Universities too many people go that don't need to, they'd be better off doing an apprenticeship c/w day release.

I don't think they do need free laptops for home. They want them but don't need them!

I agree about the apprenticeship thing, I wish I did one. When I left school I went straight to work for a couple of hundred quid a week while some of my mates were doing apprenticeships for £40 a week. But now I'm not earning much more than I started on at 16 and me apprenticeship mates have good skills and can earn alot more cash.

[Daggers]

But now I'm not earning much more than I started on at 16

Maybe another computer would help?

[Guest]

I certainly acknowledge that the cycle of poverty and shit parenting is a major reason, but denying kids the opportunity to get out of that cycle AINT GONNA HELP! Punishing the kids, because their parents are shit will only breed even greater numbers of shit. (watch "Iddiocracy" for a simple guide to this).

If 1 % of these kids benefits from what really is a minimal impost (im guessing maybe 2 pounds a week?) on most taxpayers it could change that kids world.. and he/she in turn may invent/discover something that will change all of ours.

" A hand up... not a hand out"

The kids that want to achieve are already doing so. They go out of their way to find the resources, such as the library or at school, or wherever. Or they do without. I can't believe that the curriculum is set out to prejudice against those who do not own a computer.

why should kids spend all of their spare time studying and travelling to libraries? Surely 6 hours in school a day is enough learning time for a 13 year old if they are listening? With maybe an hours homework chucked in.

Well there's no need to give out laptops then.

[BoneDog]

Maybe another computer would help?

It might do if I knew any ways to make money with one! All I know is poker and I daren't enter big money games incase I lose.

[Daggers]

It might do if I knew any ways to make money with one!

Well - according to some of you they appear to be a cure-all for every educational ailment so try popping one under your tongue and waiting for it to dissolve. Or leave one switched on in the corner of the room and let the EMR promote subliminal beta-wave learning. Or bake one into a pie for a full reiki detox infusion of knowledge.

There's nothing computers can't do.

[davieG]

Well - according to some of you they appear to be a cure-all for every educational ailment so try popping one under your tongue and waiting for it to dissolve. Or leave one switched on in the corner of the room and let the EMR promote subliminal beta-wave learning. Or bake one into a pie for a full reiki detox infusion of knowledge.

There's nothing computers can't do.

Can you tell my computer that, I think it must have been raised by one of those shit families that don't give a fook for learning and developing. It can't concentrate on the task in hand, gets distracted and slows down, doesn't seemed to have heard of multi-tasking, takes an age to get going and when you've finally had enough of it the bloody thing hangs around taking ages to piss off.

[BoneDog]

Well - according to some of you they appear to be a cure-all for every educational ailment so try popping one under your tongue and waiting for it to dissolve. Or leave one switched on in the corner of the room and let the EMR promote subliminal beta-wave learning. Or bake one into a pie for a full reiki detox infusion of knowledge.

There's nothing computers can't do.

Sounds like a microdot experience

[ozleicester]

Fuck it then - I want a hadron collider off the State. Who knows what shit I might be able to change with that?

Sadly i doubt it will change attitudes, which is the most important change required to improve this world.

As for the system being prejudiced against those without, you need only read through this thread to see the enormous prejudice some people face. even from people who rage against racism or homophobia.

Be any colour you like, have any sexual desire.... but dammit, dont be so poor as to need my money.

[Zingari]

I certainly acknowledge that the cycle of poverty and shit parenting is a major reason, but denying kids the opportunity to get out of that cycle AINT GONNA HELP! Punishing the kids, because their parents are shit will only breed even greater numbers of shit. (watch "Iddiocracy" for a simple guide to this).

If 1 % of these kids benefits from what really is a minimal impost (im guessing maybe 2 pounds a week?) on most taxpayers it could change that kids world.. and he/she in turn may invent/discover something that will change all of ours.

" A hand up... not a hand out"

straight to the point , this post just needs repeating and repeating

[Webbo]

Sadly i doubt it will change attitudes, which is the most important change required to improve this world.

As for the system being prejudiced against those without, you need only read through this thread to see the enormous prejudice some people face. even from people who rage against racism or homophobia.

Be any colour you like, have any sexual desire.... but dammit, dont be so poor as to need my money.

There is certainly some truth in what you say but tolerence doesn't cost anything so it's not quite the same.

The nub of the argument is do you believe that welfare can end poverty? Imo welfare payments for able bodied people often perpetuates poverty. I know people who have been told not to take a job by officials because they'd be better off on benefits and how many of us wouldn't prefer to sit at home for the same money as getting up in the morning, travelling to work and putting in 8 hours ? Those people will never raise themselves up.

There are teenage girls who get themselves pregnant to get a council flat so that can leave home. Men who fake disabilities to avoid work.If there is anything in life that they need, they expect that the state should provide it for them, it never occurs to them to earn them for themselves. These people all feel they have a right to these benefits but don't feel any responsibility to their children or the wider public.

PS. Before anybody jumps on me, I know that not everybody on benefits is like that.

[Zingari]

There is certainly some truth in what you say but tolerence doesn't cost anything so it's not quite the same.

The nub of the argument is do you believe that welfare can end poverty? Imo welfare payments for able bodied people often perpetuates poverty. I know people who have been told not to take a job by officials because they'd be better off on benefits and how many of us wouldn't prefer to sit at home for the same money as getting up in the morning, travelling to work and putting in 8 hours ? Those people will never raise themselves up.

There are teenage girls who get themselves pregnant to get a council flat so that can leave home. Men who fake disabilities to avoid work.If there is anything in life that they need, they expect that the state should provide it for them, it never occurs to them to earn them for themselves. These people all feel they have a right to these benefits but don't feel any responsibility to their children or the wider public.

PS. Before anybody jumps on me, I know that not everybody on benefits is like that.

Good post as ever Webbo and I'm not going to jump on you ( I don't know you well enough )

But , I think the crux of ozzies argument is that , yes, there are lots of shit parents who cause most of the problems and are the main cause of children failing , but there always have been shit parents and probably always will be .

Let's accept that a one of lifes realities , be realistic and just try to do our best to lessen the worse effects of it .We probably will as a society never rescue all the victims of bad parenting

If parents were as perfect as some are suggesting they should be , there would be no need for any seperate schooling at all .

However spending a relattively fairly small amount of money for all to have access to rapidly changing technology could give some children the impetus to break out of the cycle ,

Ok it may only be a small percentage , but i don't think anyone is claiming this a cure-all for the whole failings of the education system , but merely another lifebelt thrown into the water that will hopefully be grasped by a few

ps sorry to OZ if I misrepresent your meaning in any way

[davieG]

If you're going down this route then wouldn't it be more efficient and probably more effective if the school retained ownership of the said PCs and they were loaned out in the same way books would be for specific projects or monitored aims / programmes of work / knowledge.

[breadandcheese]

If you're going down this route then wouldn't it be more efficient and probably more effective if the school retained ownership of the said PCs and they were loaned out in the same way books would be for specific projects or monitored aims / programmes of work / knowledge.

Or as you advocated earlier (although it was probably more a tacit implication) more money put into the library system to boost the numbers from poorer homes using library services. The whole point of this free broadband gimmick is to give equal access to information for those from the poorest homes. Well a library with internet access and specialist books is far more useful than a quick google and wikipedia answer.

Personally I agree with those who are worried at how we can find money for gimmicks like this and at the same time slash spending for universities. Very good article in the times today of an interview with Chris Patten. I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, but his stuff on university funding is spot on.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/poli...icle6990417.ece

[AoWW]

And public libraries don't have enough computers for many kids to use after school. Burton library has about 15 PC's and there are at least 4 high schools in Burton.

Whenever I've been in my local libraries after school or at a weekend there's always plenty of free PCs. In fact, the only people I ever seem to see using them are over 60 - I can pretty-much guarantee there won't be a school-age child in sight.

A school I worked in previously - in an area of extreme deprivation... over 90% of families were on benefits - tried to tackle the issue of children (supposedly) not having access to PCs and (again, supposedly) not developing their ICT skills. This was despite the school having 2 ICT suites and numerous laptops all of which were available to use during lunchtimes and at after-school clubs (the take-up was minimal and those that did come were the kids who had a real desire to improve themselves and achieve). We also invested lots of time encouraging parents to take their kids to the local library. Most threw their hands up in horror declaring it was too far to go (a 10 min walk, max) and that they didn't have the time (ermmm, you don't work... in fact you do nothing but sit on your arse all day)!

Kids do have access to computing facilities. Yes, it might take a bit of effort on their parts (and their parents in supporting/encouraging younger children to do so) but it's far from impossible. I see little benefit from giving these families free laptops - as others have already stated I'd be extremely surprised if they ended up being used for educational purposes. We even had instances in that school where children who'd been given book tokens as prizes for special achievements later told us their parents had sold them on (for a fraction of their worth) so they could use the money for drugs, booze, cigarettes. I'd be astonished if many of these free laptops even remained in those households for more than a week.

[MC Prussian]

I think offering free access to Macs would encourage kids to get more used to technology.

Who needs shit PCs, anyway?

You cannot force kids to use school computers/laptops, but you can certainly encourage them and show them the advantages of the tech/online world. I can't tell, but is there no specific IT classes in public schools that teaches kids and teenagers how to use computers properly? Are schools already in the mindset that this generation needs no more teaching in that regard because it's become such an integral part of life, anyway? I mean, it's also a age thing. When I look back at my own school history, PCs and Macs didn't come into my life up until I was 15/16. These days, access to the web or useful software is much more easy and even 5-year olds with their own cell phones (a treat I didn't enjoy before my 18th birthday or sommat).

And I agree with the notion that if the parents can't be arsed to take care of what their kids do in terms of additional education, then the vicious circle of poverty and stupidity will hardly ever be broken.

[Guest]

Sadly i doubt it will change attitudes, which is the most important change required to improve this world.

As for the system being prejudiced against those without, you need only read through this thread to see the enormous prejudice some people face. even from people who rage against racism or homophobia.

Be any colour you like, have any sexual desire.... but dammit, dont be so poor as to need my money.

This isn't about being poor. My parents weren't exactly flush, but it never stopped me from learning, and developing IT skills by using the school's IT facilities in my spare time. As AOWW has said, kids from deprived areas who do want to achieve manage to do so.

It's symptomatic of our society; far too many people are prepared to sit on their backsides and wait for everything to be handed to them. The thought of having to put effort into anything angers these people.

"Life's not fair" they proclaim. No. No it is not. If you want to change, you have to do something about it, and not wait for someone else to do it for them.

[Daggers]

Sadly i doubt it will change attitudes, which is the most important change required to improve this world.

As for the system being prejudiced against those without, you need only read through this thread to see the enormous prejudice some people face. even from people who rage against racism or homophobia.

Be any colour you like, have any sexual desire.... but dammit, dont be so poor as to need my money.

Prejudice against the poor? Have a word child - I've been working as a teacher in the state system for fifteen years, volunteering with Shelter for six and as a volunteer trainer for Mind for off and on five years. I spent two years giving up my free time for the homeless street children of Cali, Colombia and then a further three giving free evening classes to homeless orphans in Caracas. Exactly what do you do to aid the suffering of the poor aside from gobbing off on an internet forum's bulletin board?

Some of us in this thread simply have a pragmatic approach based on direct experience and knowledge: You and others are confusing access to IT with education. Plonking a child in front of a laptop does not mean they will learn - erudition is not achieved through osmosis. There is not one single piece of research in existence linking home access to ICT to an improvement in basic literacy and numeracy skills...and these are the very skills needing addressing in the home environment (where there exists no culture of learning).

In fifteen years of teaching I have yet to come across a program which will effectively diagnose shortcomings in a child's understanding and address this with stepped support. So, pardon me if I mock anyone who considers that a child with limited coding skills is somehow going to benefit from the internet mystically infusing them with new-found understanding. Children with limited skills can not read the bulk of websites - font sizes are too small, there is too much information and they can not access the text. This isn't an opinion, this is fact. The proposal doesn't include software, it is all centred around the allowing them to access an internet that is already available to them in other forms...one which the bulk of them spurn.

We have a 20% rate of families without access to ICT at home. Alongside council provision, we open up the lab to parents and kids for before, during and afterschool clubs. How many of the 20% do you think attend?

The argument should centre more on what we could do for them if we didn't spend our time filling in pointless forms and being driven by targets and league tables - that is what acts as a detriment to their learning.

[Head Honcho]

Whenever I've been in my local libraries after school or at a weekend there's always plenty of free PCs. In fact, the only people I ever seem to see using them are over 60 - I can pretty-much guarantee there won't be a school-age child in sight.

A school I worked in previously - in an area of extreme deprivation... over 90% of families were on benefits - tried to tackle the issue of children (supposedly) not having access to PCs and (again, supposedly) not developing their ICT skills. This was despite the school having 2 ICT suites and numerous laptops all of which were available to use during lunchtimes and at after-school clubs (the take-up was minimal and those that did come were the kids who had a real desire to improve themselves and achieve). We also invested lots of time encouraging parents to take their kids to the local library. Most threw their hands up in horror declaring it was too far to go (a 10 min walk, max) and that they didn't have the time (ermmm, you don't work... in fact you do nothing but sit on your arse all day)!

Kids do have access to computing facilities. Yes, it might take a bit of effort on their parts (and their parents in supporting/encouraging younger children to do so) but it's far from impossible. I see little benefit from giving these families free laptops - as others have already stated I'd be extremely surprised if they ended up being used for educational purposes. We even had instances in that school where children who'd been given book tokens as prizes for special achievements later told us their parents had sold them on (for a fraction of their worth) so they could use the money for drugs, booze, cigarettes. I'd be astonished if many of these free laptops even remained in those households for more than a week.

Changing the subject slightly but aren't all families on benefits?

[Daggers]

Changing the subject slightly but aren't all families on benefits?

I'm guessing Fi means the range of unemployment and disability benefits rather than child benefit.

[AoWW]

I'm guessing Fi means the range of unemployment and disability benefits rather than child benefit.

Yes, sorry, that was indeed what I meant.