Square pegs, round holes

[Salieri]

We all have opinions on here and would like to think we know what the best team to pick is and we may not always agree with the manager BUT i think we all agree that it isn't rocket science to play players in their preferred positions to get the best results.

The introduction of Dyer on the wing (natural position) resulting in moving Vassell to the centre (natural position) paid dividends. If we had a small squad that meant we had to shoehorn players into unfamiliar positions then I wouldn't comment but we have a very decent squad at the moment.

Early into Sven's tenure, Yuki was pushed wide until he realised he was best utilised in the middle. Waggy and Vassell have been pushed wide when they are best placed in the centre, even Gally, i'm not convinced he should be stuck on the wing, attacking midfielder or striker for me.

To be fair to Sven, i think wingers are the issue, left wing should be nailed on Lloyd Dyer at the moment, but a natural right winger should be absolute priority come January.

Just to clarify, i'm delighted with todays result and the impact made thus far by Sven, just hoping he will address the problem of natural width, if he does, i think we have a team that should at the very least, make the Play Offs.

As for quality, affordable right wingers out there, who knows?

[ajthefox]

couldn't agree more really, but as you've said the whole notion of not playing someone in their best position baffles me.

I don't think there could be such a resounding confirmation of where dyer and vassell play best as todays game.

Although Gallagher has improved his defending, winger definitely isn't where he should be for us, admittedly though finding his best position and being able to utilise him in that position is not easy.

[Messi]

I've heard the name David Bentley being talked about, hed do a job.

But Gallagher is a lot better playing the role than he was last season.

[Finnegan]

Two points, really.

The first being that what the club quite obviously, drastically lacks is natural wingers. We have one, Dyer, who is proven at this level. You can't really blame Sven for his lack of personnel until he's had a while to actually play the transfer market properly, which ultimately likely won't be until after the summer.

But secondly, I'd question how much exactly Vassell and Waghorn are being played out of position. Neither is an instinctive finisher, both have reasonable pace and are fair on the ball and both have the potential to scare full backs at this level. The modern wide men in a 4 3 3 / 4 5 1 formation aren't typical wingers and if we're putting a little man up then they're going to be doing better putting angled through balls in for him to chase and not whipping in crosses.

A different skill set is required, you need people who can score goals there and Waghorn and Vassell do have that calibre - but are either really centre forwards?

[Guest ttfn]

Two points, really.

The first being that what the club quite obviously, drastically lacks is natural wingers. We have one, Dyer, who is proven at this level. You can't really blame Sven for his lack of personnel until he's had a while to actually play the transfer market properly, which ultimately likely won't be until after the summer.

But secondly, I'd question how much exactly Vassell and Waghorn are being played out of position. Neither is an instinctive finisher, both have reasonable pace and are fair on the ball and both have the potential to scare full backs at this level. The modern wide men in a 4 3 3 / 4 5 1 formation aren't typical wingers and if we're putting a little man up then they're going to be doing better putting angled through balls in for him to chase and not whipping in crosses.

A different skill set is required, you need people who can score goals there and Waghorn and Vassell do have that calibre - but are either really centre forwards?

The second part is a super point.

[AlphaMaleFox]

 affordable right wingers out there, who knows?  

Bradley Wright-Phillips ?  

[DB11]

If Gallagher was AMC then I think he'd waste even more chances than he currently does now

[davieG]

I'd suggest that Abe was played wide because he wasn't considered fit enough for the CM role, that fitness was gained through Sousa and then Sven playing him there. The same could be the case for Vassell although we wont know for sure until Sven considers him fit enough, let's see where he starts the next game or two, always assuming of course that Central Striker is his best position.

[Thracian]

... the club quite obviously, drastically lacks is natural wingers. We have one, Dyer, who is proven at this level. You can't really blame Sven for his lack of personnel until he's had a while to actually play the transfer market properly, which ultimately likely won't be until after the summer.

We had two but Pearson managed to waste the other one.

[Father Ted]

I think that Sven and the Faz have perfectly tactically masterminded everything so far (bar a few rubs of the green).

I would stick Dyer on the wing on Saturday and Vassell down the middle. This would stop the hoofball and force us to play at a higher tempo which is how we destroyed Doncaster yesterday.

One fact that I did hear though was that Dyer only played 1 full match last season! So we need wingers who are constantly going to be able to run ragged and in the three pronged attack, Moussa, Waghorn and Schlupp would be ideal replacements.

[marbelladave]

Two points, really.

The first being that what the club quite obviously, drastically lacks is natural wingers. We have one, Dyer, who is proven at this level. You can't really blame Sven for his lack of personnel until he's had a while to actually play the transfer market properly, which ultimately likely won't be until after the summer.

But secondly, I'd question how much exactly Vassell and Waghorn are being played out of position. Neither is an instinctive finisher, both have reasonable pace and are fair on the ball and both have the potential to scare full backs at this level. The modern wide men in a 4 3 3 / 4 5 1 formation aren't typical wingers and if we're putting a little man up then they're going to be doing better putting angled through balls in for him to chase and not whipping in crosses.

A different skill set is required, you need people who can score goals there and Waghorn and Vassell do have that calibre - but are either really centre forwards?

Absolutely spot on, are you sure you are on the right forum...

I have said this many times, in a 4-3-3 you do not need wingers, you need strikers who attack the box from wide positions when we have the ball and track their fullbacks when we do not, both Gallagher and Dyer do this quite well, creating chances and scoring a few goals. Last season before Fryatt's injury, Waghorn did much the same from the right, in fact his best spell with us came when he played there.

What is important is that they play well forward, track your fullback when necessary but do not end up trying to be a midfielder, Dyer and Waghorn, in particular are way more effective receiving the ball 30 yards out, rather than on the half way line.

Defensive cover should come from elsewhere, the midfield in this case, but the lack of a proper 'sitting' player means that our back 4 does not get the cover it needs.

[Les-TA-Jon]

Ok as good as dyer is, and as much as he changed the game against doncaster - he's still incredibly inconsisten - very hot and cold. This might explain why he doesn't get as many starts as he "should".

[Bettsj2]

To say square pegs, round holes is far too simplistic a way to look at the modern game.

It's not the same game as it was 10 years ago where if you were a left winger you only played on the left wing. Dyer, Gallagher and Vassell as a front 3, can move alternate and switch as much as they like without too much detrement to the overall shape.

Everyone has spoken about how Dyer changed the game playing his most orthodox role.

His most orthodox role is a left winger yet he won the penalty coming from the right wing and his ball through to Vassell for his goal came from a pass through the middle.

Movement and variety keeps your play from being predictable to read. Another good example of this is Abe starting the game as the holding midfielder, but on occasions he was further forward than King or Wellens.

This is the thing I like most about watching us since Sven has taken over. He's taken the team and given them license to be creative but has them organised enough to know that someone needs to cover.

Now Dyer has been a good player for us since he came but the truth is, if we have aspirations to be promoted, Dyer won't be good enough to make the step up. Even in yesterdays game where in many eyes he did no wrong, I can remember two occasions when he was at the byline with no defender near him and his cross bypassed everyone and went out for a throw. I definitely think he has a place in the squad in the future but i'd be very surprised if we dont bring someone a lot better in to start.

[Thracian]

To say square pegs, round holes is far too simplistic a way to look at the modern game.

It's not the same game as it was 10 years ago where if you were a left winger you only played on the left wing. Dyer, Gallagher and Vassell as a front 3, can move alternate and switch as much as they like without too much detrement to the overall shape.

Everyone has spoken about how Dyer changed the game playing his most orthodox role.

His most orthodox role is a left winger yet he won the penalty coming from the right wing and his ball through to Vassell for his goal came from a pass through the middle.

Movement and variety keeps your play from being predictable to read. Another good example of this is Abe starting the game as the holding midfielder, but on occasions he was further forward than King or Wellens.

This is the thing I like most about watching us since Sven has taken over. He's taken the team and given them license to be creative but has them organised enough to know that someone needs to cover.

Now Dyer has been a good player for us since he came but the truth is, if we have aspirations to be promoted, Dyer won't be good enough to make the step up. Even in yesterdays game where in many eyes he did no wrong, I can remember two occasions when he was at the byline with no defender near him and his cross bypassed everyone and went out for a throw. I definitely think he has a place in the squad in the future but i'd be very surprised if we dont bring someone a lot better in to start.

I don't see that Dyer is a contained player by nature - just that he's invariably been asked to play a more disciplined role than would get the best out of him as has been the way with us for years and to the cost of all our wingers.

Dyer is extremely versatile and, more important, what he and Vassell have in particular is the ability to attack defenders quickly and make them vulnerable.

You'll get nowhere trying to breach organised Championship/Premiership defences unless you have people with the speed and skill to break them down.

But Vassell and Dyer can do it well enough for us and their task is made easier when others are confident and aware enough to raid forward from midfield - and happily Abe, King and Wellens plus the full-backs can all do it, along with Gallagher, hence the much greater number of runners we have attacking the box now and across the width of the field.

Stray crosses or not we've created stacks of chances this season and quite enough to be sitting at the top end of the table if we'd taken anything like the proportion we should.

[marbelladave]

I don't see that Dyer is a contained player by nature - just that he's invariably been asked to play a more disciplined role than would get the best out of him as has been the way with us for years and to the cost of all our wingers.

Dyer is extremely versatile and, more important, what he and Vassell have in particular is the ability to attack defenders quickly and make them vulnerable.

You'll get nowhere trying to breach organised Championship/Premiership defences unless you have people with the speed and skill to break them down.

But Vassell and Dyer can do it well enough for us and their task is made easier when others are confident and aware enough to raid forward from midfield - and happily Abe, King and Wellens plus the full-backs can all do it, along with Gallagher, hence the much greater number of runners we have attacking the box now and across the width of the field.

Stray crosses or not we've created stacks of chances this season and quite enough to be sitting at the top end of the table if we'd taken anything like the proportion we should.

I remain unconvinced about your final point, it is somewhat contradictory to your opening statement, in fact to my mind we have been very slow in attack, playing the ball around in front of the opposition far too much, so that when we do play the ball forward we do so into a defence that is well set and prepared. The ball may well get to our strikers but they are well marked, so the chances that fall to them are fleeting and they are rapidly closed down.

Get them the ball quickly against defences that are not yet set and they can score, ask Naughton, Waghorn and Vassell!

[ajthefox]

We had two but Pearson managed to waste the other one.

Gradel left ages ago, get over it.

[Finnegan]

We had two but Pearson managed to waste the other one.

True, he never did get the best out of N'Guessan.

[Bettsj2]

I don't see that Dyer is a contained player by nature - just that he's invariably been asked to play a more disciplined role than would get the best out of him as has been the way with us for years and to the cost of all our wingers.

Dyer is extremely versatile and, more important, what he and Vassell have in particular is the ability to attack defenders quickly and make them vulnerable.

You'll get nowhere trying to breach organised Championship/Premiership defences unless you have people with the speed and skill to break them down.

But Vassell and Dyer can do it well enough for us and their task is made easier when others are confident and aware enough to raid forward from midfield - and happily Abe, King and Wellens plus the full-backs can all do it, along with Gallagher, hence the much greater number of runners we have attacking the box now and across the width of the field.

Stray crosses or not we've created stacks of chances this season and quite enough to be sitting at the top end of the table if we'd taken anything like the proportion we should.

Agree with a lot of what you say. But the fact remains that Dyer is not a good enough player to make the next step up in quality.

[Captain...]

It is not always the pegs that are the problem sometimes we are using the wrong hole

I have seen this time and again with City and the fans, we play one way well once and we then decide that this is the best way to play always and then it doesn't work in the next game or the next, we change the formation and play well and all of a sudden this is our best way to play.

Example: We start on Ipswich with a front three of Vassell, Dyer and Gallagher, stale first half, swap Gallagher for Waghorn, Waggy scores we win 1-0, everyone says Waggy should start ahead of Gallagher. Next game we start with Waggy we win, next game draw next game lose. Next Game we are 1-0 down at half time, we bring on Steve Howard he sparks a big turn around and we win 3-1. All of sudden we need to play with a big man up front.

There is no set way to play and no set formation to play in, the success of the match is as often as not determined by how the opposition line up and play compared to us. It is all well and good to say we should start next game with Vassell through the middle, Dyer and Gallagher on the flanks and we will win 5-1 again. All it needs is for Ipswich to line up in 4-4-2, pressure our full backs with their wingers and they cut them off going forward and we lose our width, therefore Gallagher and Dyer will have to push out wide to create width and space this will leave Vassell isolated. If they have one CB with a bit of pace and the other to provide the muscle and they are well organised at the back Vassell will struggle up front on his own. We will have a man over in midfield but if we can't hold the ball up then they won't be able to get up and support the attack.

We exploited holes in the Donny defence because they got caught out pushing forward. If Ipswich are disciplined at the back then we will struggle. If you have Howard up front we have a different dimension we have a focal point and we can have King, Dyer and Vassell buzzing round him it gives us different options.

I am not saying that we should start with Howard against Ipswich, I know fook all about ipswich and how they play so I don't know what the best tactics are. What I am saying is we have the squad now to change the starting line up and the formation to exploit the opposition's weakness, if they have an attacking right winger or are very strong down the right, why not play Berner with Cunningham to protect our left flank. If they have a slow back four, play Dyer, Vassell and Fryatt to exploit, if we need a bit more muscle and strength up front we have Waggy and Howard. If we start the game and they are letting us pass it around then great, but if they come at us and put us under pressure we need outlets and Howard has always been one.

[B52]

It is not always the pegs that are the problem sometimes we are using the wrong hole

I have seen this time and again with City and the fans, we play one way well once and we then decide that this is the best way to play always and then it doesn't work in the next game or the next, we change the formation and play well and all of a sudden this is our best way to play.

Example: We start on Ipswich with a front three of Vassell, Dyer and Gallagher, stale first half, swap Gallagher for Waghorn, Waggy scores we win 1-0, everyone says Waggy should start ahead of Gallagher. Next game we start with Waggy we win, next game draw next game lose. Next Game we are 1-0 down at half time, we bring on Steve Howard he sparks a big turn around and we win 3-1. All of sudden we need to play with a big man up front.

There is no set way to play and no set formation to play in, the success of the match is as often as not determined by how the opposition line up and play compared to us. It is all well and good to say we should start next game with Vassell through the middle, Dyer and Gallagher on the flanks and we will win 5-1 again. All it needs is for Ipswich to line up in 4-4-2, pressure our full backs with their wingers and they cut them off going forward and we lose our width, therefore Gallagher and Dyer will have to push out wide to create width and space this will leave Vassell isolated. If they have one CB with a bit of pace and the other to provide the muscle and they are well organised at the back Vassell will struggle up front on his own. We will have a man over in midfield but if we can't hold the ball up then they won't be able to get up and support the attack.

We exploited holes in the Donny defence because they got caught out pushing forward. If Ipswich are disciplined at the back then we will struggle. If you have Howard up front we have a different dimension we have a focal point and we can have King, Dyer and Vassell buzzing round him it gives us different options.

I am not saying that we should start with Howard against Ipswich, I know fook all about ipswich and how they play so I don't know what the best tactics are. What I am saying is we have the squad now to change the starting line up and the formation to exploit the opposition's weakness, if they have an attacking right winger or are very strong down the right, why not play Berner with Cunningham to protect our left flank. If they have a slow back four, play Dyer, Vassell and Fryatt to exploit, if we need a bit more muscle and strength up front we have Waggy and Howard. If we start the game and they are letting us pass it around then great, but if they come at us and put us under pressure we need outlets and Howard has always been one.

This is maybe the reason why we can get out running in the second half after Sven noticed the gaps.

One reason, I think, for the change in the game is that Vassell probably is regarded as the player to watch out for. More space for his team mates. We attack more on the left side wich means Vassell on the right is isolated. They put more pressure on the right side. When Vassell floats inside it's harder to isolate him and we play better as a team.