Wikileaks

[The Horse's Mouth]

Not going to lie, soon as I seen the title I thought it was a South Park reference. 

[Zingari]

Manning has been found guilty and sentenced to 35 years in prison.   

 

What a sad society we live in, where a man who is doing the right thing and exposing illegal and unethical acts by his government can be imprisoned for 35+ years.

 

Mannings statement - http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/8/21/bradley_manning_sometimes_you_have_to_pay_a_heavy_price_to_live_in_a_free_society

 

 

The US government have admitted no one was harmed by Manning's actions, this is nothing more than a threat and warning to any of us who is considering exposing lies, corruption or unethical activity.

 

A shameful time if this is left to go ahead, and, dont brush it off with the old "only in america" tag, have a look at the recent treatment in the UK of David Miranda. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/19/white-house-david-miranda-heads-up

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell 

 

When disclosing crimes by your goverment becomes a crime , we know we are governed by criminals . It is their own form of omerta.

Maybe he should have just followed orders and been a good patriot 

 

Something is terribly wrong with the way the world is governed.

 

Whacko Conspiracy theory I suppose .

[Guest MattP]

Manning and Assange are getting what they deserve.

Snowdon is a hero mind.

[Jon the Hat]

Manning and Assange are getting what they deserve.

Snowdon is a hero mind.

Snowden could have been a hero, sadly he then aligned himself with the Chinese and them the Russian governments, which makes him a moron.

[Zingari]

Snowden could have been a hero, sadly he then aligned himself with the Chinese and them the Russian governments, which makes him a moron.

Who else offered him any sort of protection ?

[Guest MattP]

Snowden could have been a hero, sadly he then aligned himself with the Chinese and them the Russian governments, which makes him a moron.

I thought he made a smart move.

He's now living in a beautiful country with gorgeous women and he could probably make a lot of money there.

Compare that to Manning who is doing serious porridge and the wikileaks weirdo who has spent the last two years in a room tht allegedly resembles a broom cupboard.

[Zingari]

I thought he made a smart my vote.

He's now living in a beautiful country with gorgeous women and he could probably make a lot of money there.

Compare that to Manning who is doing serious porridge and the wikileaks weirdo who has spent the last two years in a room tht allegedly resembles a broom cupboard.

So the only difference is Snowden was smart enough to realise that he'd be hung out to dry but the others are too stupid to realise it , and thought our dumb citizens would take to the streets to defend them and demand the real criminals be sought out ? 

 

Yep Assange and Manning are pretty stupid if they thought that.

[Guest MattP]

So the only difference is Snowden was smart enough to realise that he'd be hung out to dry but the others are too stupid to realise it , and thought our dumb citizens would take to the streets to defend them and demand the real criminals be sought out ? 

 

Yep Assange and Manning are pretty stupid if they thought that.

 

Well lets face it Assange can't go anywhere except some dodgy South American dictatorship can he considering how many around the world he has pissed off? No sympathy for him, I saw first hand what happened to a friend of mine who was implicated in something wikileaks released and it wasn't even remotly true so I'm sure you can see why I'm not going to take to the streets to defend him. The weirdo should be in Sweden facing the charges there before anything, I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes in his company.

 

I feel for Manning a little bit as like Snowdon I think he was trying to do good, however if you join the army surely you realise this stuff is happening? I don't believe anyone is naive enough to think "war crimes" aren't being used by any force in the World actively engaged in combat.

[leicsmac]

What Manning did was brilliant, but he violated the code that he specifically signed up to adhere to when he joined the Army. He must have known this was the way it was going to end. You break the rules, you have to do the time - and it was blatantly obvious they were going to hang him out to dry, Couldn't he have resigned his commission, and then gone whistleblower? Surely that would have been the better (and safer) option.

 

I do think 35 years is a bit much though. 

[Zingari]

Well lets face it Assange can't go anywhere except some dodgy South American dictatorship can he considering how many around the world he has pissed off? No sympathy for him, I saw first hand what happened to a friend of mine who was implicated in something wikileaks released and it wasn't even remotly true so I'm sure you can see why I'm not going to take to the streets to defend him. The weirdo should be in Sweden facing the charges there before anything, I wouldn't want to spend 5 minutes in his company.

 

I feel for Manning a little bit as like Snowdon I think he was trying to do good, however if you join the army surely you realise this stuff is happening? I don't believe anyone is naive enough to think "war crimes" aren't being used by any force in the World actively engaged in combat.

Sorry but i don't think any official secrets act should cover "war crimes" .It seems indicative of a very sorry state that so many have come to accept it as normal 

Maybe i'm just old fashioned  but if war crimes are being committed we still need to investigate them or we are as bad as the evil we're supposed to be fighting . 

Just following orders ain't good enough .

[leicsmac]

I do believe there is a disturbing lack of accountability for the governments of nearly every major country. There is far too much activity that is labelled 'need to know', and is kept from public knowledge when it directly affects that same public. Perhaps it's my cynicism coming to the fore, but I think that those in power need to be accountable and open to the people who have elected them at all times, as they cannot be trusted due to classic human nature.

[MooseBreath]

Feel sorry for Manning but he must have known he was going to go to prison for a long time. He put innocent lives at risk to carry out his own agenda. The sentence needs to be a disincentive to others thinking about doing the same thing. If he thought what he was seeing was illegal or immoral then he should have reported it through the proper channels.

I wonder if on reflection he still thinks it was worth it.

[leicsmac]

Feel sorry for Manning but he must have known he was going to go to prison for a long time. He put innocent lives at risk to carry out his own agenda. The sentence needs to be a disincentive to others thinking about doing the same thing. If he thought what he was seeing was illegal or immoral then he should have reported it through the proper channels.

I wonder if on reflection he still thinks it was worth it.

 

I hope that he does because that will encourage others to push for greater accountability, though hopefully through methods that don't end up with the powers that be having a justification for sticking them in a cell for decades.

[Zingari]

Feel sorry for Manning but he must have known he was going to go to prison for a long time. He put innocent lives at risk to carry out his own agenda. The sentence needs to be a disincentive to others thinking about doing the same thing. If he thought what he was seeing was illegal or immoral then he should have reported it through the proper channels.

I wonder if on reflection he still thinks it was worth it.

did he really , or is that the same old nonsense that keeps being trotted out whenever the powerful elite want to hide their crimes ?

[Finnegan]

Where the **** was Snowden meant to go?

[breadandcheese]

You have to feel sorry for Manning. From all the reports, he was clearly a guy who suffered from a number of issues, which were identified during his training and meant he probably should have been discharged from the army a long time ago, rather than being given a position close to sensitive information. He's then been used by Wikileaks, who cared nothing for him, but saw him as nothing but a source of data.  If Manning had leaked the information to a US media organisation rather than a foreign enterprise, I wonder whether he would have got a lighter sentence?

 

The issue of Miranda, I'm not so sure about yet, as I think there's a number of details that have been misrepresented by the guardian.  Admittedly, I was initially shocked when it was presented as "partner of journalist held under terrorism laws", because it looked like state intimidation of the press, however, a number of things are now coming to light to show that it is not as shocking as first presented.

[Guest MattP]

You have to feel sorry for Manning. From all the reports, he was clearly a guy who suffered from a number of issues, which were identified during his training and meant he probably should have been discharged from the army a long time ago, rather than being given a position close to sensitive information. He's then been used by Wikileaks, who cared nothing for him, but saw him as nothing but a source of data.  If Manning had leaked the information to a US media organisation rather than a foreign enterprise, I wonder whether he would have got a lighter sentence?

 

The issue of Miranda, I'm not so sure about yet, as I think there's a number of details that have been misrepresented by the guardian.  Admittedly, I was initially shocked when it was presented as "partner of journalist held under terrorism laws", because it looked like state intimidation of the press, however, a number of things are now coming to light to show that it is not as shocking as first presented.

 

Never lol

 

Agree on Manning, no comparison to Miranda this, to be fair only the Guardian and the BBC trumped this up to what it was, most other news stories made you aware of what Miranda has been accused of and you can see why he was detained.

 

You sensed the desperation when they forcefully started playing the "but he's a homosexual" angle.

[MooseBreath]

did he really , or is that the same old nonsense that keeps being trotted out whenever the powerful elite want to hide their crimes ?

No, if you give away classified details of your military operations like he did on a large scale then you are definitely putting people at risk. Whether the "powerful elite" (do mid-ranking soldiers serving in Afghan and Iraq fall into this category now?) are hiding crimes is irrelevant as far as his punishment is concerned.

[Zingari]

No, if you give away classified details of your military operations like he did on a large scale then you are definitely putting people at risk. Whether the "powerful elite" (do mid-ranking soldiers serving in Afghan and Iraq fall into this category now?) are hiding crimes is irrelevant as far as his punishment is concerned.

He exposed and denounced human rights violations and conduct in violation of international law that his country commited, he helped expose the unbelievable conduct of the US in Iraq and some of the darkest secrets of the Obama administration.

The helicopter pilots who ( under orders ?) killed the civilians & reporters in the collateral murder video are free.

Fog of war ? maybe , but why not investigate it?

 

It seems we are the most spied on nation in the world and frequently told " if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" .

Well let that principle apply to the military and government .

The war on freedom being waged by the US and UK is incredibly sinister and must be resisted.He revealed war crimes, that's not treasonous.The real traitors wear suits, fiddle their expenses, lie on oath, involve the country in wars without the consent of the people, spy on their own citizens and authorise the use of remote drones to kill civilians. 

[MooseBreath]

He exposed and denounced human rights violations and conduct in violation of international law that his country commited, he helped expose the unbelievable conduct of the US in Iraq and some of the darkest secrets of the Obama administration.

The helicopter pilots who ( under orders ?) killed the civilians & reporters in the collateral murder video are free.

Fog of war ? maybe , but why not investigate it?

It seems we are the most spied on nation in the world and frequently told " if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" .

Well let that principle apply to the military and government .

The war on freedom being waged by the US and UK is incredibly sinister and must be resisted.He revealed war crimes, that's not treasonous.The real traitors wear suits, fiddle their expenses, lie on oath, involve the country in wars without the consent of the people, spy on their own citizens and authorise the use of remote drones to kill civilians.

Yes, I tend to agree. Though I think if you acknowledge that far more goes on than the public is ever made aware of, then you must also acknowledge that you most likely aren't aware of the full justification for those actions. Personally I believe the real reasons for the wars in the middle east are probably not the same as what gets peddled to the public. We probably know very little of why and what is really going on. So who knows, maybe if we knew the real reasons for the wars, we would be more supportive.

But none of this makes any difference to Manning. What he did put people at risk and for that he deserves his punishment.

[Zingari]

Yes, I tend to agree. Though I think if you acknowledge that far more goes on than the public is ever made aware of, then you must also acknowledge that you most likely aren't aware of the full justification for those actions. Personally I believe the real reasons for the wars in the middle east are probably not the same as what gets peddled to the public. We probably know very little of why and what is really going on. So who knows, maybe if we knew the real reasons for the wars, we would be more supportive.

But none of this makes any difference to Manning. What he did put people at risk and for that he deserves his punishment.

But fighting for freedom "always" puts people at risk .

It's probably one of  the few reasonable justifications for it. 

He put his own life at risk remember. 

if the people exposed  have and are committing war crimes , surely it's all of our duty to stand up and say so .

Let's have a full investigation as to who and why any lives were actually put at risk , not just some often repeated mantra.

is it us , the ordinary man in the street or soldier fighting for what he believes is justice  at risk?

Or is it someone else with a much more sinister agenda  ?

 

This is nothing more or less than high level Omerta 

 

edit ;

Colonel Jessup ( a few good men) made a similar reasoned argument to the highlighted section in your post  , but ultimately it still fails 

(I still have some sympathy with him though because i see him in turn as yet another victim ) 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUu4ceCIN4k

 

Edit ;

is that Danny Drinkwater sitting in the dock ?

[ADK]

Feel sorry for him. No doubt in years to come people will look back and think he was treated unfairly but it will be too late.

[MooseBreath]

A curious twist

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23798253

[Guest MattP]

Well he sounds sane.

[Zingari]

Didn't J Edgar Hoover dress in women's gear ?

Was he a traitor and  insane too ?

 

typical media character assassination going on.