Homophobia in Football

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Top post, Furiousfox.

And Zaphod - you think two out of... however many... is proportionate?

Just 2 that came straight to my mind. I am sure there are a lot more than that but perhaps it is not such a big deal they have to 'out' themselves. Did I say it was proportionate?

[Vestan Pance]

The joke really is on the ones doing the chanting on this occasion. If they want to bring playground behaviour to a football match it's up to them. The majority of gay people I know would laugh at them but not the 'Joke'.

[Captain...]

First of all top work from Sosban Foch, I love a good argument and you need 2 sides for it work.

Secondly, on the subject of openly gay footballers, who cares, I think the majority of the football supporting public wouldn't give a shit....

...but if you knew that one of the Barnsley team was gay would you take the piss out of them today? Probably

If we look at the case of Sol Campbell, I don't know if he is gay or not, don't care, but if he was gay and had come out as being gay and been open about it, he would probably hav had a much happier footballing career and not had this pink shadow hanging over him. I don't know if we will ever find that he is gay, but what we do know is that he is/was a fantastic footballer and a great servant for England and Arsenal, his sexuality is irrelevant, but when he plays against Leicester if you thought you could unsettle him with a few comments, then you would, no different to laying into Mattock for hitting a girl, or Marlon King for being in jail.

There is still a problem in society with attitudes towards homosexuals, but it is getting smaller and smaller, I honestly believe that getting upset over a bit of banter is actually making matters worse, if Sosban Foch was actually gay and had actually taken offence, then it would be a slightly different matter. What happes though is that threads like this make people feel uncomfortable about talking about it, thinking shit what if I say the wrong word, can I say bender or is poof better? being unable to talk about it keeps it in the background keeps it taboo, like a dirty little secret, but it's not, there is nothing to be ashamed of and there is no reason why it cannot be acceptable to hve jokes and make fun of someone based and cliched stereotypes, that's where a lot of humour comes from.

You drive like a woman,

You dress like a bender,

The stereotype and the insinuation is the same.

What has actually instigated the whole post is commenting on how someone dressed, if your mate came up to you and said I've just bought this new hoody, and shows you a bright pink number with disco written in sequins on the back, you would say, that's a bit gay and you would take the piss out of him for it, in no way different to if they turned up at the pub wearing a tie as a mate of mine did last night, and got the piss ripped out of him until he eventually took it off, because he looked like a tit.

Anyway what I'm trying to say in my hung over rambling way is that yes there are people out there who find it offensive, but they are few and far between, there will always be those who are offended by it, and those that feel uncomfortable talking about, but the more open this discussion becomes and the less boundaries put on these discussions the better society will be.

[filbertway]

There's definately a queen inside sosban waiting to be outed!

[Finnegan]

Secondly, on the subject of openly gay footballers, who cares, I think the majority of the football supporting public wouldn't give a shit....

Evidently people do care. It's less about what "would happen" if more sportsmen came out and more about why they're not, the environment that makes it the status quo. Stepping outside of football for a moment and looking at Alfie Thomas, a lot of people have said "See? Nobody cares" and that's great - he's been very well received, on the whole, since outting himself. But what people should be looking at is why it took him as long as it did and why it drove him cripplingly into depression? It's not because he, as an individual, was simply weak and his story almost certainly is not unique.

...but if you knew that one of the Barnsley team was gay would you take the piss out of them today?

No. Why would I? And not because I actively hang around thinking "I don't want to offend anybody from any minority, oh dear me, oh dear, must be politically correct!" but just because... it honestly, hand on heart, would not occur to me. I'm not a saint, I can't stand here, straight faced, and say I've never made a homophobic joke before or sniggered at someone being called a fag. I try not to but I'm not perfect, nobody is. But to stand up, in numbers, and bellow out the reinforcement of a tired stereotype? Just wouldn't ever strike me to do it.

being unable to talk about it keeps it in the background keeps it taboo

Bellowing out from the terraces the implication that Brighton is a town full of homosexuals isn't really 'talking about the issue', mate, is it? Really?

there is nothing to be ashamed of

Which brings us full circle. If there's nothing to be ashamed of, then why use it as a point of ridicule?

There's definately a queen inside sosban waiting to be outed!

I like to think of myself more as a princess.

[FuriousFox46]

If we look at the case of Sol Campbell, I don't know if he is gay or not, don't care, but if he was gay and had come out as being gay and been open about it, he would probably hav had a much happier footballing career and not had this pink shadow hanging over him. I don't know if we will ever find that he is gay, but what we do know is that he is/was a fantastic footballer and a great servant for England and Arsenal, his sexuality is irrelevant, but when he plays against Leicester if you thought you could unsettle him with a few comments, then you would, no different to laying into Mattock for hitting a girl, or Marlon King for being in jail.

There is still a problem in society with attitudes towards homosexuals, but it is getting smaller and smaller, I honestly believe that getting upset over a bit of banter is actually making matters worse, if Sosban Foch was actually gay and had actually taken offence, then it would be a slightly different matter. What happes though is that threads like this make people feel uncomfortable about talking about it, thinking shit what if I say the wrong word, can I say bender or is poof better? being unable to talk about it keeps it in the background keeps it taboo, like a dirty little secret, but it's not, there is nothing to be ashamed of and there is no reason why it cannot be acceptable to hve jokes and make fun of someone based and cliched stereotypes, that's where a lot of humour comes from.

But by doing this you preventing hate against homosexuals becoming smaller and smaller. It wouldn't be okay Barnsley fans to chant racism at Dyer, Vassell and Yakubu just because it's unsetlles them so why is it okay if someone is gay? That's a disgusting attitude to have and it's things like this that keep homophobia alive.

Seriously anyone is yet to answer to me why its okay to chant homophobic chants but racist chants is a no no? What's the fooking difference?

[Haydos]

But by doing this you preventing hate against homosexuals becoming smaller and smaller. It wouldn't be okay Barnsley fans to chant racism at Dyer, Vassell and Yakubu just because it's unsetlles them so why is it okay if someone is gay? That's a disgusting attitude to have and it's things like this that keep homophobia alive.

Seriously anyone is yet to answer to me why its okay to chant homophobic chants but racist chants is a no no? What's the fooking difference?

Nobody has said it is

Only that mild banter 'we can see you holding hands' etc is inoffensive. It's tricky because a lot see this as harmless banter but it still labels homosexuality as negative, which like you say is arguably no better than racism.

Where are all the gays when you need 'em!

[Captain...]

No. Why would I? And not because I actively hang around thinking "I don't want to offend anybody from any minority, oh dear me, oh dear, must be politically correct!" but just because... it honestly, hand on heart, would not occur to me. I'm not a saint, I can't stand here, straight faced, and say I've never made a homophobic joke before or sniggered at someone being called a fag. I try not to but I'm not perfect, nobody is. But to stand up, in numbers, and bellow out the reinforcement of a tired stereotype? Just wouldn't ever strike me to do it.

Bellowing out from the terraces the implication that Brighton is a town full of homosexuals isn't really 'talking about the issue', mate, is it? Really?

So if you saw an openly gay footballer get into a bit of handbags on the pitch you wouldn't be tempted to go, "oooh, get her!"? I'm not talking about chanting "**** off and die, fag!" but lightheartd banter.

Were you upset when people were waving mobile phones at Ashley Cole because he was rumoured to have stuck one up his arse and got someone to ring it for his sexual pleasure? I thought it was funny.

You are what you are, and you do what you do, the only way you can be offended by someone calling you it, is to be ashamed of it.

But by doing this you preventing hate against homosexuals becoming smaller and smaller. It wouldn't be okay Barnsley fans to chant racism at Dyer, Vassell and Yakubu just because it's unsetlles them so why is it okay if someone is gay? That's a disgusting attitude to have and it's things like this that keep homophobia alive.

Seriously anyone is yet to answer to me why its okay to chant homophobic chants but racist chants is a no no? What's the fooking difference?

There is a massive difference between homophobia and referring to someone as gay.

Homophobic attitudes are vile and are, in England at least, less and less common. Homophobia is the opinion that homosexuality is wrong and disgusting.

Making a joke or having a bit of fun at the expense of homosexuals is not homophobia.

Likewise I am sure I am not the only one who has made a sexist joke, but that doesn't make me a sexist.

Those on here that don't see any harm in the chant on Tuesday are not homophobes, I just don't see it as big deal, it is a non issue and a non event, like most things relating to homosexuality are these days.

[Haydos]

Those on here that don't see any harm in the chant on Tuesday are not homophobes, I just don't see it as big deal, it is a non issue and a non event, like most things relating to homosexuality are these days.

A non-issue in this case, i agree and so do a lot of others. You have a very ignorant view of it though. The point is, i believe, that it is being used in a derogatory manner. Meh.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Why do people keep writing "affended"? I've never been affended about anything and you know why?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT A FRIKKIN WORD!

Homophobia - no

Moronphobia - yes

[Captain...]

A non-issue in this case, i agree and so do a lot of others. You have a very ignorant view of it though. The point is, i believe, that it is being used in a derogatory manner. Meh.

...and my point is it will continue to be used as such while people continue to take offence and see it as something to be ashamed of. The chant was essentially referring to someone presumed straight as gay for the wearing pink. At it's worst it was intended to ridicule and embarrass this person, but that only works if people see homosexuality as something to be ashamed off. In reality I don't think there was any real malice behind it. If the situation was different and say 2 men were spotted kissing in the away and at the walkers today and a section of the crowd started deliberately singing offensive chants at them for doing so, then it would be a very different matter.

I understand that chants like the one on tuesday, if perceived as homophobic would make a homosexual football fan fell uncomfortable, but to perceive it as homophobic there would have to have been something negative in the chant. As far as I know bender is not a particular offensive term in this day and age, and I don't think the chant would have been any more or less offensive if homosexual or gay was used in it's place.

If you take "we can see you holding hands", as an example, there is no insinuation that this is a negative or a positive thing, it is just a chant based on the observation that Brighton has a large gay population. To be offended by that chant you would first have to be from Brighton and then be offended/embarrassed by the fact that Brighton has a large gay population. The homophobe in this instance is the recipient of the chant not the chanter.

It's like when you tell someone you are from Leicester and they say it has a large Asian population, we are well known for that, do you take offence, do you think they are being offensive? How you respond to that is also very important, do you say "Yes it does, it's fantastic you can get a great curry" or do you say "Apart from that it's a nice place", or do you say "Are you being fooking racist?" I know that there is a huge difference between race and sexuality, but I think the point is still valid.

Of course it is all about tone and implication and at a football match you say things to wind up the opposition and their fans, but would you get offended if you were called a bender by someone in the street, presuming you are straight? Would you think they were being homophobic or just being a twat?

[Haydos]

Think i'm bored now

Like everything ever, people have different views on it. I'll leave it with.....Nothing wrong with harmless chanting and taking the piss out of someone for wearing pink, I think that should be expected when you go to a stadium with 30,000 men. I'd feel very uncomfortable with any aggressive chanting at someone who is obviously gay/players that might be gay. That's the difference between banter and homophobia and personally I think it's quite obvious and in this case people need to lighten up. Peace out

[Houdini Logic]

'I am strongly anti-homophobic and anti-racist, but I'll happily laugh along when a comedian makes a gay or racist joke'

Then no, son, you're not "strongly" anti-homophobic and anti-racist. You're just one step away from "I'm not racist, I've got some black friends."

Well then by your logic neither of us are strongly against homophobia so why don't we just leave it at that.

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=25265&st=2780&p=1745672entry1745672

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Well then by your logic neither of us are strongly against homophobia so why don't we just leave it at that.

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=25265&st=2780&p=1745672entry1745672

I don't like having to back up Finners on this, but why is laughing aat that joke in anyway homophobic? It does not take the piss out of gay people does it?

[FuriousFox46]

Why do people keep writing "affended"? I've never been affended about anything and you know why?

BECAUSE IT'S NOT A FRIKKIN WORD!

Homophobia - no

Moronphobia - yes

Please invest in a dictionary.

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Please invest in a dictionary.

Why? Do they give a good return then?

[B52]

Can we kiss an make up with ABBA playing in the speakers when we score?

On and on and on or Gimmie gimmie gimmie a man after midnight or The winner takes it all - both straights and gays.

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Can we kiss an make up with ABBA playing in the speakers when we score?

On and on and on or Gimmie gimmie gimmie a man after midnight or The winner takes it all - both straights and gays.

But what about the greedy Bi-sexuals?

[B52]

But what about the greedy Bi-sexuals?

Today I don't give a f***. Let them have fun too.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Seriously anyone is yet to answer to me why its okay to chant homophobic chants but racist chants is a no no? What's the fooking difference?

The difference is that there have been wars fought because of race hate, numerous attempts at 'ethnic cleansing' and long periods of history where people have been institutionally discriminated against for the colour of their skin. Racist slurs evoke memories of such attrocities. Jokes about people being gay are far more acceptable because they are not associated with such poignant and regrettable historical events.

[FuriousFox46]

The difference is that there have been wars fought because of race hate, numerous attempts at 'ethnic cleansing' and long periods of history where people have been institutionally discriminated against for the colour of their skin. Racist slurs evoke memories of such attrocities. Jokes about people being gay are far more acceptable because they are not associated with such poignant and regrettable historical events.

But they are used for the same purpose to segregate and abuse. What your saying is the equivalent to a bankrupt orphan being raped and a privilleged princess being raped, yes one's clearly had a more troubled past but at the end of the day it's still rape.

[Guest Mee-9]

Astonishes me sometimes what people complain about.

Few harmless chants. No big issue.

[Finnegan]

The difference is that there have been wars fought because of race hate, numerous attempts at 'ethnic cleansing' and long periods of history where people have been institutionally discriminated against for the colour of their skin. Racist slurs evoke memories of such attrocities. Jokes about people being gay are far more acceptable because they are not associated with such poignant and regrettable historical events.

[B52]

The difference is that there have been wars fought because of race hate, numerous attempts at 'ethnic cleansing' and long periods of history where people have been institutionally discriminated against for the colour of their skin. Racist slurs evoke memories of such attrocities. Jokes about people being gay are far more acceptable because they are not associated with such poignant and regrettable historical events.

No, today gays are yust murdered because they happen to fancy something you and I don't like(I assume you don't like to poke something in your asset. ).

In eastern Europe it's really bad for homosexuals. I doesn't bother with banter but it can go horrible wrong because of the "usual" banter. In other countries they get a death sentence. It's just in a few civilisized western countries we can call it harmless banter.

[Paddy_Maguire]

The difference is that there have been wars fought because of race hate, numerous attempts at 'ethnic cleansing' and long periods of history where people have been institutionally discriminated against for the colour of their skin. Racist slurs evoke memories of such attrocities. Jokes about people being gay are far more acceptable because they are not associated with such poignant and regrettable historical events.

I resisted posting when reading over some of the crazy rumours in Jan here, but this is too stupid. Homosexuality wasn't legalized in Britain until the 60's. In the 80's the government made it illegal to discuss or 'promote' that way of life right up until Labour took over. They have only recently been given the same rights as married couples. They were rounded up and put in gas chambers in the 40's and are still stoned and killed in many parts of the world. In America, they were sent to clinics and still today religious parents put their kids in 'correction camps'. Gays have had a pretty crappy time, don't claim they haven't been institutionally badly treated.

Secondly, the point most people are missing is the logic of causing offense to the guy in pink. It is irrelevant whether he was personally upset. The logic was that by referring to him as gay because of some stereotype you are insulting him. The chant suggests it's a bad thing to be. You think it's 'harmless'? How many gay people do any of the people on here know? Behave yourself, you have no idea how they might feel sitting in that crowd. I wasn't at the game, but i'd bet all the money in my wallet that there was some kid joining in the chants. Some 10 year old with his dad screaming at the top of his lungs "bender" with his dad. Tell me that is harmless. It's a bit of banter, but middle aged straight blokes sure do like to dish it out without having to take much back.