Captain... Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Some of the ignorance in here is just stunningly brilliant. Jesus Christ. Phrases like "ridiculous PC" or "overly PC" or "the PC Brigade" might have become vogue but that doesn't excuse you from being actually offensive. It's alright saying "it's just banter" or "it's not as if it's true so why would he mind?" but that's spectacularly missing the point. The point is that, by calling him gay as something to be mocked you're confirming a social stereotype that being homosexual is a negative thing or something to be ashamed of. I'm not going to sit here and fly the flag for Gay pride. I can't be bothered, it's a lost cause and - quite frankly - selfish as it is it's an issue that doesn't really concern my life a great deal. But a bunch of predominantly heterosexual guys sitting here and saying what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by? Fucking cringeworthy. In this case you might be right, a lot of gay people might just roll their eyes and laugh it off but that's not really the point. It's not our place to be dismissive of what offends any other group of people, minority or otherwise. That's not "overly PC" it's just not being a complete cunt. Sounds like you need a bit of Stephen Hughes in your life http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-JxA9Rvs8I&feature=related As he says the offense you take says more about you than the people doing the insulting. If the united fan was offended by being called gay, then he is probably more homophobic than the Leicester fans. By the sounds of it he didn't care. When straight people stop being offended by being referred to as gay, people will stop using it as an insult. It was a few comments at a football match, it is not the same thing as hanging around outside gay clubs and attacking the patrons, an insult only works if people let it. I was in Australia a while ago staying with a friend's family and her dad would refer to me as a pom. After a few days he suddenly turned to me and said, sorry you're not offended when I call you a pom are you? Of course not I replied, did he mean to offend me no. I could have taken it as offensive if I had chosen to, I could have called him a convict in return (I thought better of it he was a big bloke). The fear seems to be that maybe a gay city fan would have heard it and felt uncomfortable, which is a bit silly, completely possible, but for example when people shout who's the willy puller in the black, I don't take any offense (and I masterbate constantly) because it's not aimed at me. We all make jokes about sheep shagging derby/wales, scouse thieves, dirty northern bastards, the Irish and blondes being thick, Gingers!!! etc. All that has really been done is associating the wearing of pink with being gay, a typical stereotype although not exactly true these days (bloody metrosexuals) it is hardly the crime of the century. I'll leave you with a bit more Stephen Hughes I can only apologise for the ginger Irish cnut introducing it.
Houdini Logic Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Some of the ignorance in here is just stunningly brilliant. Jesus Christ. Phrases like "ridiculous PC" or "overly PC" or "the PC Brigade" might have become vogue but that doesn't excuse you from being actually offensive. It's alright saying "it's just banter" or "it's not as if it's true so why would he mind?" but that's spectacularly missing the point. The point is that, by calling him gay as something to be mocked you're confirming a social stereotype that being homosexual is a negative thing or something to be ashamed of. I'm not going to sit here and fly the flag for Gay pride. I can't be bothered, it's a lost cause and - quite frankly - selfish as it is it's an issue that doesn't really concern my life a great deal. But a bunch of predominantly heterosexual guys sitting here and saying what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by? Fucking cringeworthy. In this case you might be right, a lot of gay people might just roll their eyes and laugh it off but that's not really the point. It's not our place to be dismissive of what offends any other group of people, minority or otherwise. That's not "overly PC" it's just not being a complete cunt. How come noone bats an eyelid when you sing songs about people being fat or having long hair or living in a particular part of the country? We all sing these songs but noone actually has an issue if someone is overweight or if someone does have long hair or is from somewhere up north - the same as It's not an issue to be gay. Are we confirming a social sterotype that everyone should have short back and sides?! ''But a bunch of predominantly heterosexual guys sitting here and saying what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by? Fucking cringeworthy.'' Does that mean I can only have an opinion if I've had a cock up my arse?
Haydos Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Some of the ignorance in here is just stunningly brilliant. Jesus Christ. Phrases like "ridiculous PC" or "overly PC" or "the PC Brigade" might have become vogue but that doesn't excuse you from being actually offensive. It's alright saying "it's just banter" or "it's not as if it's true so why would he mind?" but that's spectacularly missing the point. The point is that, by calling him gay as something to be mocked you're confirming a social stereotype that being homosexual is a negative thing or something to be ashamed of. I'm not going to sit here and fly the flag for Gay pride. I can't be bothered, it's a lost cause and - quite frankly - selfish as it is it's an issue that doesn't really concern my life a great deal. But a bunch of predominantly heterosexual guys sitting here and saying what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by? Fucking cringeworthy. In this case you might be right, a lot of gay people might just roll their eyes and laugh it off but that's not really the point. It's not our place to be dismissive of what offends any other group of people, minority or otherwise. That's not "overly PC" it's just not being a complete cunt. It's alright saying that all the way up there on your high horse. But where do you draw the line, in your opinion? Like I said earlier and others are now saying, is it mean to call the keeper a fat bastard? Or to tell the ref he's shit at his job? What makes these more ok than 'we can see you holding hands'? Tbh, you've said it yourself 'In this case you might be right' and I think that's the point. Nobody was chanting about beating him up because he's gay or anything silly like that.
Bob Weasel Fox Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Some of the ignorance in here is just stunningly brilliant. Jesus Christ. Phrases like "ridiculous PC" or "overly PC" or "the PC Brigade" might have become vogue but that doesn't excuse you from being actually offensive. It's alright saying "it's just banter" or "it's not as if it's true so why would he mind?" but that's spectacularly missing the point. The point is that, by calling him gay as something to be mocked you're confirming a social stereotype that being homosexual is a negative thing or something to be ashamed of. I'm not going to sit here and fly the flag for Gay pride. I can't be bothered, it's a lost cause and - quite frankly - selfish as it is it's an issue that doesn't really concern my life a great deal. But a bunch of predominantly heterosexual guys sitting here and saying what gay people should and shouldn't be offended by? Fucking cringeworthy. In this case you might be right, a lot of gay people might just roll their eyes and laugh it off but that's not really the point. It's not our place to be dismissive of what offends any other group of people, minority or otherwise. That's not "overly PC" it's just not being a complete cunt. Umm yeah - i sort of agree on the "hole"
Fox1651 Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Umm yeah - i sort of agree on the "hole" Very poor joke jjstowell but well done for trying
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 One at a time, one at a time. Right, let's do this in order, Shrapnel: Sounds like you need a bit of Stephen Hughes in your life See, now there you are, you've just gone done exactly what I was talking about. You've gone and you've taken the world's frustration with political correctness and you've tried to turn it into your defence. Great. you have a stand up comedian to back you up, someone whose job it is to make populist social commentaries for laughs for money. Don't sit there and make out that I'm being uppity, that I lack a sense of humour, that I am easily offended or that I am some bastion of political correctness. It's perfectly obvious to all and sundry that no part of me is concerned about upsetting people - there's a list of FT posters as long as your arm that'll happily back that up. I'm just sick to the back teeth of hearing people use this new, 'cool' culture of "Anti-PC" to excuse the fact they're being dicks. As he says the offense you take says more about you than the people doing the insulting. If the united fan was offended by being called gay, then he is probably more homophobic than the Leicester fans. By the sounds of it he didn't care. When straight people stop being offended by being referred to as gay, people will stop using it as an insult. It was a few comments at a football match, it is not the same thing as hanging around outside gay clubs and attacking the patrons, an insult only works if people let it. That's fine when you're talking on a specific, individualist level. If you call someone an arsehole and he lets it offend him that's one thing. But, as I clearly stated in my post, you're massively missing the point if you think that I'm bothered about whether or not one potentially homophobic football fan is offended by being called gay. The greater issue is the fact that several hundred people all stood together thinking it's acceptable to use someone's sexuality as a point of ridicule in the first place. I was in Australia a while ago staying with a friend's family and her dad would refer to me as a pom. After a few days he suddenly turned to me and said, sorry you're not offended when I call you a pom are you? Of course not I replied, did he mean to offend me no. I could have taken it as offensive if I had chosen to, I could have called him a convict in return (I thought better of it he was a big bloke) for example when people shout who's the willy puller in the black, I don't take any offense (and I masterbate constantly) because it's not aimed at me. I fucking hate examples like this. A light hearted bit of banter between the Aussies and the English (or aimed at anyone who masturbates, ie everyone) is clearly not the same as mass, passive homophobia. It just isn't. I don't have to put a constructive argument together as to why not - if you can't see why, you're an absolute moron and you're not going to have a magical change of heart because I've said so. The fear seems to be that maybe a gay city fan would have heard it and felt uncomfortable, which is a bit silly, But who are you as (seemingly) a heterosexual male to tell a homosexual what is and isn't "silly" to be offended by? You wouldn't tell somebody black which racial slurs they should just laugh off, would you? ll that has really been done is associating the wearing of pink with being gay Again, see the above. That's NOT what's offensive. Suggesting that he's gay because he's wearing pink isn't what's the bigger issue. The bigger issue is the underlying implication that being gay is something to be embarrassed about or ridiculed for. Houdini Logic: How come noone bats an eyelid when you sing songs about people being fat or having long hair or living in a particular part of the country? We all sing these songs but noone actually has an issue if someone is overweight or if someone does have long hair or is from somewhere up north - the same as It's not an issue to be gay. Are we confirming a social sterotype that everyone should have short back and sides?! Don't be a tit for WUMings sakes, you're smarter than that. "Isms" aren't all on a par. We all know this, we're not stupid. We know that prejudice against "people with slightly scruffy hair" isn't as abhorrent as racism. We're all well aware that a few jokes about blondes isn't on the same level as serious religious intolerance or institutional sexism. We might fall in either the "everything is okay to joke about!" or "dont say anything that might hurt someones feelings [becausewe'llprobablygetsued]" categories of people for the sakes of a good argument but I'm fairly confident most of us are aware that the world's far more shades of grey. It's just unfortunately there's still a large segment of society that thinks they can brush homophobia under the carpet alongside "they're discriminating because I have my eyebrow pierced" and "they're prejudiced against me because I like scat sex!" Does that mean I can only have an opinion if I've had a cock up my arse? Hell no. You're welcome to your opinion and you're welcome to voice it. I'm just expressing my right to call you a fucking bigot if you seriously think that a few hundred people stood up shouting "DOES YOUR BOYFRIEND KNOW YOU'RE HERE?" every time we play Brighton is acceptable. Haydos: If you think I've missed something out that you've asked then I'll happily come back to you but I'm pretty sure I've expressed my point of view. Oh, and I'm not on any high-horse I'm just not narrow minded.
lcfcadam Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Just out of interest, would the opinion of a gay guy in a thread like this hold any more salt than the other various opinions on the topic? I'm not saying it would, just asking a genuine question.
Heskey2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Ipswich away..... "does your livestock know you're here?" is that acceptable? Harrogate Town...."does your butler know you're here?" Cardiff / Swansea.... "sheep sheep sheep shagger" acceptable? Where's the line?
Jimmy Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Ipswich away..... "does your livestock know you're here?" is that acceptable? Harrogate Town...."does your butler know you're here?" Cardiff / Swansea.... "sheep sheep sheep shagger" acceptable? Where's the line? whilst they continue to chant racist abuse at the English its ok in my opinion
lcfcadam Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Ipswich away..... "does your livestock know you're here?" is that acceptable? Harrogate Town...."does your butler know you're here?" Cardiff / Swansea.... "sheep sheep sheep shagger" acceptable? Where's the line? I think the one concrete thing we've established here is that the line is completely different for different people, and we're never going to agree on it. I wouldn't find any of those examples above offensive and I wouldn't find "Does your boyfriend know your here?!" offensive, but I would find "Town full of pakis" offensive. Yet another person will think completely differently. It's the way of life, different opinions, and I really don't think people should be having personal digs at each other in a thread like this just because we all have different "lines" so to speak...
themotivator Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Ipswich away..... "does your livestock know you're here?" is that acceptable? Harrogate Town...."does your butler know you're here?" Cardiff / Swansea.... "sheep sheep sheep shagger" acceptable? Where's the line? really don't know why im getting involved, but it might be because homophobia in football almost totally stops gay people from either playing football or being able to come out. can end in suicide/social alienation etc. 'sheepshaggers' dont actually shag sheep and it doesn't really mean anything.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 whilst they continue to chant racist abuse at the English its ok in my opinion Would you like to tell me what exactly you think is "racist abuse at the English?" Not that I have a problem with sheep chants, most of us find it pretty pathetic that after nigh on a century you don't have any better material.
Heskey2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 I think the one concrete thing we've established here is that the line is completely different for different people, and we're never going to agree on it. I wouldn't find any of those examples above offensive and I wouldn't find "Does your boyfriend know your here?!" offensive, but I would find "Town full of pakis" offensive. Yet another person will think completely differently. It's the way of life, different opinions, and I really don't think people should be having personal digs at each other in a thread like this just because we all have different "lines" so to speak... Very good point well made.
Jimmy Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 really don't know why im getting involved, but it might be because homophobia in football almost totally stops gay people from either playing football or being able to come out. can end in suicide/social alienation etc. 'sheepshaggers' dont actually shag sheep and it doesn't really mean anything. its like in society as a whole until a high profile player comes out it will always be seen this way, you'd think Rugby would of been similar but as with Gareth Thomas, people don't care, if a high profile player does come out, his team mates will rally round in support, then the fans of his team, then sponsors then pretty soon no one will care either way
Heskey2011 Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 really don't know why im getting involved, but it might be because homophobia in football almost totally stops gay people from either playing football or being able to come out. can end in suicide/social alienation etc. 'sheepshaggers' dont actually shag sheep and it doesn't really mean anything. I'm straight and captained a football team in Liverpool for 3 years, most of the players worked in a gay club called Garlands, some were gay some straight, made no difference, we got stick from other teams all the time (as we were sponsored by Garlands) and i can honestly say after the first few games it did not bother anyone and i have never played in a team since where there has been so much banter (sexual orientation based banter). I get your point about some people hearing those chants and not wanting to play football because of it but you've got to be pretty ...(don't want to say soft, but can't think of a better word).... if a bit of name calling stops you from pursuing your dream.
Captain... Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 One at a time, one at a time. Right, let's do this in order, Shrapnel: Again, see the above. That's NOT what's offensive. Suggesting that he's gay because he's wearing pink isn't what's the bigger issue. The bigger issue is the underlying implication that being gay is something to be embarrassed about or ridiculed for. But the only one saying that is you, I am saying that there is no underlying homophobia, would it have been any different if he was being called a girl for wearing pink? To take offense is to imply that there is something wrong with what is being said. To see it as harmless fun is saying the opposite. While we still categorise homosexuality and class jokes about it by straight men taboo, it will always have that sense of shame about it. To have openly gay and straight people making jokes and having fun at/with homosexuality brings down any barriers. How many times do you see straight men pretending to be gay with each other? Shaun Pegg and Nick Frost did it in Spaced, Corden and Horne do it all the time to get laughs. Little Britain too, although one of them actually is gay, so does that make it alright? Russell Brand is another one. What is better in my eyes is that you now get gay comedians who don't rely on their sexuality for laughs, I geuinely didn't know the likes of Simon Amstell, Jeremy Hardy and Sandy Tostvig were gay until recently and they are people I have liked for years. The reason why I am focussing on comedy here is that this all arised from a few people having a laugh at someone elses expenses who took it well and gave it back. Then there was the whole non story of that Welsh Rugby player who was gay, so fooking what, nobody cared, there are still knuckle draggers out there who believe it is wrong and would sooner put their cocks in acid than another man's mouth, but they are few and far bewteen, it is now an accepted part of society, and thus it is game for a laugh and a bit of fun poking. I will finish this by saying that you probably do have a point, and to an ever decreasing minority of people being called a bender is a huge affront to their masculinity, but I think you are more like to piss off a straight man by calling him gay then offend a gay man overhearing it. Has anyone even considered that he might have been gay and was just attention seeking and enjoyed being serenaded. (This in no way should be interpreted as me thinking that all gay people are attention seekers).
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 But the only one saying that is you, I am saying that there is no underlying homophobia, But there is. Of course there is. What else do you mean to imply by singing it? There is literally no other meaning to be taken.
Guest BlueBrett Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 it is now an accepted part of society, and thus it is game for a laugh and a bit of fun poking. This is key. There is no major controversy anymore and gays are no longer stigmatised and therefore they are open to all of the same stereotype jokes as the french, people with long hair, women, men, scousers, posh people, estate agents, tall people, short people, footballers, fat people and anyone else who has ever been teased based on their appearance, lifestyle, gender or occupation. And in any case.. Sticks and stones can break my bones but calling cannot hurt me. The reason racism was/is so damaging is not because people of different races were offended by the names they were called but because of the actual discrimination they experienced alongside them. If the discrimination hadn't taken place you would probably find people of different races light-heartedly calling each other 'taboo' names to this day and all having a laugh about it. That can't happen anymore in most cases because the names are associated with the sufferings that were imposed. Does the same really apply with regard to homosexuality? I can't remember gays ever being rounded up and forced to carry out hard labour.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 gays are no longer stigmatised The fuck do you live?
Guest BlueBrett Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 The **** do you live? not stigmatised in a way that actually affects ther lives. They wont not get a job because of their sexuality or be refused service or entry. My point is that the only mocking they are subjected to is on the same level as the mocking aimed at all sorts of other people. Certainly no more sinister.
FuriousFox46 Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 I'm straight and captained a football team in Liverpool for 3 years, most of the players worked in a gay club called Garlands, some were gay some straight, made no difference, we got stick from other teams all the time (as we were sponsored by Garlands) and i can honestly say after the first few games it did not bother anyone and i have never played in a team since where there has been so much banter (sexual orientation based banter). I get your point about some people hearing those chants and not wanting to play football because of it but you've got to be pretty ...(don't want to say soft, but can't think of a better word).... if a bit of name calling stops you from pursuing your dream. It's not like you have to be a pussy to be gay. The fact you think that is ironic really
phillthefox Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 This was aimed with fun at a guy in the sheff utd end wearing a bright pink top with his mate, sat together , and he gave plenty back all in good humour. think some people need to get a grip on reality........
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2011 Posted 4 February 2011 not stigmatised in a way that actually affects ther lives. They wont not get a job because of their sexuality or be refused service or entry. My point is that the only mocking they are subjected to is on the same level as the mocking aimed at all sorts of other people. Certainly no more sinister. So you'd just as happily walk hand in hand through a Glasgow council estate with your boyfriend as you would dye your hair ginger? And you're the guy that believes "the gays" should be refused the right to adopt, so I'm not entirely sure you have a leg to stand on. Especially given one of your arguments against was "bullying." Should ginger couples be allowed to adopt brunette kids?
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