Andy King - the missing link?

[Walsho]

I agree. King fails to tackle every match which does my head in. Any player cannot be anonymous, especially a midfielder, and King is anonymous constantly.

But people fail to see this because King scores goals and some people think this is the only thing a player should do, which is wrong. Look further into players...

Are you actually being serious??

Anyone that was at the game on Saturday would have seen that the team lacked any sort of creativity in the final third and to be honest apart from Nugent hitting the post we never really looked like scoring.

It was painful to watch how isolated Nugent was with little support from a midfield and on the few occasions that we did get the ball into the box there was never any midfielders making late runs.......Andy King does this naturally.

He scored 16 goals from midfield last season and his job role in the team is to be attack minded, creative and to support the frontman.

He makes things happen by his sharp passes and his trademark late runs into the box. He’s also one of the only players that actually carries the ball in a central position.

His duty is not to be defensive, we have Wellens/Abe and in particular Fernandes to be the bite of the midfield. Kingy’s defensive style is to mark space and block angles which is often seen as being ‘anonymous’.

For me Kingy has to be a starter especially when playing at home. He was among our best players last season and is very important to us for his attacking sense and will be an important figure as the team begins to gel.

The similar sort of argument can be made for Gally. He scored 11 goals last season. I know some people on here aren’t big fans of his but i think we missed him on Saturday. Personally i would have him in the team for his ability to make a killer pass/cross and especially for his set piece deliveries.

On Wednesday i’d like to see a midfield of Wellens & Fernandez and King and an attack of Gallagher, Nugent and although im not a massive fan, Dyer. (His pace will be vital to unsettle an already very poor defence.)

Let’s hope Saturday was a reality check for everyone and we get back to winning ways over Bristol.

Up The City!

[ajthefox]

I agree. King fails to tackle every match which does my head in. Any player cannot be anonymous, especially a midfielder, and King is anonymous constantly.

But people fail to see this because King scores goals and some people think this is the only thing a player should do, which is wrong. Look further into players...

I suggest you do the same, your view of him is very skewed.

I don't think it's a coincidence that from what I remember, you rate Wellens extremely highly too.

[Fox92]

Can you give me the score please? (I'm off to Paddy Power with my mortgage money in the morning!

I meant Reading.

I suggest you do the same, your view of him is very skewed.

I don't think it's a coincidence that from what I remember, you rate Wellens extremely highly too.

I don't think its a coincidence that when Wellens signed, BBC named him our Key Player of the season, I don't think its a coincidence that opposition fans have indicated to me that everything comes through Wellens (and other fans' views are better than ours because we'l be biased towards certain players), I don't think its a coincidence that certain Premier League clubs were looking at him, I don't think its a coincidence that he won player of the month last season etc etc

[Thracian]

I meant Reading.

I don't think its a coincidence that when Wellens signed, BBC named him our Key Player of the season, I don't think its a coincidence that opposition fans have indicated to me that everything comes through Wellens (and other fans' views are better than ours because we'l be biased towards certain players), I don't think its a coincidence that certain Premier League clubs were looking at him, I don't think its a coincidence that he won player of the month last season etc etc

You're the sort advertisers and politicians love - you'll take in anything you're told and want to believe.

Wellens has certain commendable strengths but is a limited midfielder because he doesn't score many goals (three league goals in 87 matches) , isn't great at tracking back because he's not that quick, wins very little in the air, has a dangerous tendency to get caught in possession, often opts out of shooting even in good positions, doesn't read the game that well when the opposition has the ball, doesn't make many driving runs into the penalty box and because he tends to take too many touches before trying to thread his passes (which is a pity cos his passing can be a strength).

As for your own reasoning:-

a) The BBC (United can't win the title with youngsters etc) are the last people I'd quote about football analysis.

b) Opposition fans watch us twice a season, not the best basis for an argument.

c) Wellens is 31 and has still never been a Premiership player (being released by his Manchester United, his one Premiership club, without making a League appearance at that level).

And (d) lots of people win Player of the Month but statistics (goals, shots, assists, pass completion etc speak for themselves). Wellens is okay in some of those things but disappointing in others and not what we need to win promotion from the Championship if we play him with another low-scoring midfielder .

[Bert]

King went missing yet again on Saturday. He should be starting, but the players that started ahead of him do a lot more for the team, and that's what Sven wants.

[Bert]

Football league statistics 2010/2011:

Goalscorers: lst Andy King: 16 (best by five) Wellens 7th with 4.

Assists: 2nd Wells with 9, 3rd King with 6

Shots: 1st King with 77, 7th Wellens (46)

Both King and Wellens made 48 appearances all told (which was 10 more than anyone else).

I'd be more than happy if someone could unearth pass completion and accuracy stats for the two.

Anyone that passes backwards and sideways only is always going to have a better pass completion ratio, and they're also going to have more shots when they're the most advanced midfielder. You seem to focus on king's positives, you never speak about his many weaknesses like you do every other player.

[marbelladave]

King went missing yet again on Saturday. He should be starting, but the players that started ahead of him do a lot more for the team, and that's what Sven wants.

If that is insight into Sven's thinking then I find it very disappointing.

I was at the game on saturday and completely failed to see Wellens, Abe or Danns 'do a lot more for the team'.

[Thracian]

a) If that is insight into Sven's thinking then I find it very disappointing.

b) I was at the game on saturday and completely failed to see Wellens, Abe or Danns 'do a lot more for the team'.

a) And totally inconsistent given the failings of most of his other players

b) King tried quite a lot of things. They just didn't come off. Bert will have to remind me of the things Wellens, Abe and Danns tried cos I can't recall them either..

[martyn]

Yes, King can go missing for long spells in games but taking 16 goals out of your side (plus another 11 + potential set piece assists from Gallagher) is a strange call for me, especially when Sven seems to want to shoehorn 4 central midfielders into the side.

Considering we appear to now have 2 solid rather than attacking fullbacks, we need all the goals/goal threat in the side we can muster.

[Bert]

a) And totally inconsistent given the failings of most of his other players

b) King tried quite a lot of things. They just didn't come off. Bert will have to remind me of the things Wellens, Abe and Danns tried cos I can't recall them either..

Put a hell of a lot more tackles in, worked hard and didn't go missing. All things King didn't do. Wellens, Abe, Danns all tried things, they just didn't come off.

You slate players for trying things that don't come off, but it seems to be different when King is concerned. I like King, think he should be starting every game, but there are many weaknesses in his game, yet you're the only one that can't see it.

What things did King try? I can remember one shot.

[Thracian]

Anyone that passes backwards and sideways only is always going to have a better pass completion ratio, and they're also going to have more shots when they're the most advanced midfielder. You seem to focus on king's positives, you never speak about his many weaknesses like you do every other player.

Well, with 16 goals scored and six assists that means King was directly involved in 22 of our goals last season and i'd take that from any midfield player in a team of mine. Unfortunately the only other midfielder we have who makes that kind of contribution is Gallagher with 11 goals and 9 assists (making direct involvement with 20 goals) but he's become a second choice player too.

Wellens comes in with direct involvement in 13 goals (4 scored and 9 assists) and Abe with four (one goal and three assists).

So, in total King and Gallagher speak for 42 goals between them, Wellens and Abe for 17 and who do we pick? I'd truly love to hear Sven's reasoning because it's certainly got nothing to do with shoring up our defence - either last season or this.

The concept of reinforcing our defence might come into it but it seems to be illusion. King didn't play the fulcrum role in front of our back four last season when our defence was being breached for fun.

In fact it was hard to say who did but Wellens and Abe were sure in there with the most defensive responsibility for the vast majority of the time and boy did we let some goals in for an aspiring promotion candidate.

When King played more defensively in previous seasons I seem to remember we were pretty sound at the back but just missed having the full benefit of his goals potential. And to show the difference it was 71 goals against last season but only 45 goals against in 2009/2010 and, indeed in 2007/2008 before Wellens and Abe arrived.

In other words it is only since those two were our principal "holding" midfielders that our goals against statistic has worsened. Yes, there will be other factors involved (goalkeeper and choice of back four among them) but I don't think Abe and Wellens work well enough together either in terms of the goals/assists they contribute or the help they give defensively.

No, I've not got all the detailed information I'd like to cement that argument but I'd sure be keen to look deeper.

And one of my questions would be whether Wellens is getting the nod to keep him sweet after last season's "Premiership" enquiry rumour and whether Abe is favoured because of our Far Eastern connections. Cos otherwise I can't understand playing the two of them together on football grounds and the stats make it pretty clear to me which one would be first to step down onto the bench.

[Bert]

I'm not talking about last season. Let's talk about this season, and refer to the points that were being brought up about Saturdays game. Just like I did in my reply to you.

I'm not surprised you chose to ignore what I said, maybe because everything was valid? I even stated myself I'd like to see King starting every game.

If you're going to moan about the "fulcrum role" then that's down to Fernandes, who has clearly been deployed there. Not Wellens or Abe.

[Fox92]

Wellens has certain commendable strengths but is a limited midfielder because he doesn't score many goals (three league goals in 87 matches) , isn't great at tracking back because he's not that quick, wins very little in the air, has a dangerous tendency to get caught in possession, often opts out of shooting even in good positions, doesn't read the game that well when the opposition has the ball, doesn't make many driving runs into the penalty box and because he tends to take too many touches before trying to thread his passes (which is a pity cos his passing can be a strength).

As for your own reasoning:-

a) The BBC (United can't win the title with youngsters etc) are the last people I'd quote about football analysis.

b) Opposition fans watch us twice a season, not the best basis for an argument.

c) Wellens is 31 and has still never been a Premiership player (being released by his Manchester United, his one Premiership club, without making a League appearance at that level).

And (d) lots of people win Player of the Month but statistics (goals, shots, assists, pass completion etc speak for themselves). Wellens is okay in some of those things but disappointing in others and not what we need to win promotion from the Championship if we play him with another low-scoring midfielder .

Why do people pick out Wellens' goals? Yes he doesn't score many, but he isn't the type of player to score goals. For example, Neil Lennon scored 6 goals in 170 goals but does that make him a bad player? No, its just the role he plays in.

All you do is highlight Wellens' weaknesses (that you feel are weaknesses) but you don't have one bad thing to say about King, as highlighted. Wellens is my favourite player but I can tell you when he's had a bad game and what weaknesses he has, and in my mind he lacks pace and that is it.

a) I don't understand what you mean.

b) I was talking about in general, not just over two games. If you go with your theory, I saw Kebe twice last season but I still understand he is a good player.

c) Wellens chose to leave Manchester United because he couldn't get in front of the midfielders there. Scholes, Keane etc.

d) The thing is he was playing with two of the same players. If Danns was in his natural position and scoring our goals, you wouldn't highligth Wellens as much.

Anyone that passes backwards and sideways only is always going to have a better pass completion ratio, and they're also going to have more shots when they're the most advanced midfielder. You seem to focus on king's positives, you never speak about his many weaknesses like you do every other player.

I do agree with this.

[Thracian]

Why do people pick out Wellens' goals? Yes he doesn't score many, but he isn't the type of player to score goals. For example, Neil Lennon scored 6 goals in 170 goals but does that make him a bad player? No, its just the role he plays in.

All you do is highlight Wellens' weaknesses (that you feel are weaknesses) but you don't have one bad thing to say about King, as highlighted. Wellens is my favourite player but I can tell you when he's had a bad game and what weaknesses he has, and in my mind he lacks pace and that is it.

a) I don't understand what you mean.

b) I was talking about in general, not just over two games. If you go with your theory, I saw Kebe twice last season but I still understand he is a good player.

c) Wellens chose to leave Manchester United because he couldn't get in front of the midfielders there. Scholes, Keane etc.

d) The thing is he was playing with two of the same players. If Danns was in his natural position and scoring our goals, you wouldn't highligth Wellens as much.

I do agree with this.

What "bad" would I say about a bloke that's involved in 22 goals in a season from midfield?

.

King will never be a bustling player and its no good thinking he will be or that it would do him any good if he tried to be. In fact if Wellens were less combative he might have more energy to get into the box. Aggression consumes energy rapidly and I like people such as King because if everyone played as he does we would retain possession like the Leeds of Revie's day and score plenty of goals too.

I've already mentioned Tiatto as my chosen example of a heart-on-the-sleeve footballer who got us nowhere. Wellens is not like this, he's got some football in him. But if I were his manager I'd give him two touches maximum on the ball anywhere in the back four fifths of the field and get him to make life a lot simpler for himself.

But returning to King, if there was anything I'd want him to work on it would be free-kicks (he's okay at them but could be better), I'd ask him to work on his jumping because even another couple of inches on his leap would make a difference, to work on being as confident shooting with his left foot as his right and to make more of his off-the-ball runs and with a bit more urgency.

But these are all details. King has so many attributes which some players can only dream of and if others could replicate those abilities we really would be a formidable team. Football teams among other things need two essentials - effect and group understanding. Without a team of players who have effect all the teamwork and understanding possible, won't be enough.

Teams with effect but no understanding or togetherness get relegated.

It is those with both that win championships. Ideally, every player should have effect and understanding.

[okie fox]

b) King tried quite a lot of things. They just didn't come off.

So King's mistakes are made light of, Wellens' aren't!

[Thracian]

Put a hell of a lot more tackles in, worked hard and didn't go missing. All things King didn't do. Wellens, Abe, Danns all tried things, they just didn't come off.

You slate players for trying things that don't come off, but it seems to be different when King is concerned. I like King, think he should be starting every game, but there are many weaknesses in his game, yet you're the only one that can't see it.

What things did King try? I can remember one shot.

i wouldn't particularly fault our team for not working hard on Saturday but so much of their work was misdirected and had no purpose or effect. Players didn't even seem to understand what they were trying to do at times. It was a shambles.

Sometimes (Burnley away last season for example) I thoroughly admire Wellens' chest-out commitment to the cause but that's not where his strength lies because he soon gets knackered, he's not that quick anyway and gaps start appearing. Wellens great strength is his passing but he needs to do it quicker and to stop elaborating and risking getting caught out. .

And Wellens was effectively "missing" because he had made nothing happen and didn't look like doing so. Quite apart from his shot I've described three things somewhere King tried and each one might well have created a chance in the box but they didn't come off. I don't remember Wellens trying such things and would never fault him for doing so (in the front third), quite the contrary.

[Thracian]

So King's mistakes are made light of, Wellens' aren't!

I think I've explained my reasoning in triplicate and the pity to me is that the debate is not more cented on the effects of Abe than Wellens although Wellens lack of goals nd reluctance even to shoot is a major weakness in our team's potential.

As far as different players lacking certain strengths that will always be the case but the bottom line revolves around the effect I've mentioned ie. scoring or preventing goals and what I've said about that still doesn't seem to have been challenged.

[unreachable]

As interesting as it is concentrating on one or two players the fallacy and pointlessness of this discussion is that football is a team game not an individual/duo sport.

The whole team was dysfunctional on Saturday.

[EverybodyDannsNow]

Andy King has to start on Wednesday, replacing Abe which would mean shuffling the formation around but that is what sven is paid to do. I honestly believe that our 4 best midfielders are clear: King, Danns, Fernandez and Wellens. You could argue that Danns is yet to prove himself however i feel he offers more than lets say Abe or Oakley. Sven needs to find his best midfield 3 or 4 and stick with it.

For me, play Fernandez and Wellens in a more defensive role and allow King and Danns to do what they do best, get forward and score goals

[Danno]

Andy King has to start on Wednesday, replacing Abe which would mean shuffling the formation around but that is what sven is paid to do. I honestly believe that our 4 best midfielders are clear: King, Danns, Fernandez and Wellens. You could argue that Danns is yet to prove himself however i feel he offers more than lets say Abe or Oakley. Sven needs to find his best midfield 3 or 4 and stick with it.

For me, play Fernandez and Wellens in a more defensive role and allow King and Danns to do what they do best, get forward and score goals

So no Johnson in our 4 best? Jesus.

[Fox92]

So no Johnson in our 4 best? Jesus.

Are you going on the Johnson you saw at Manchester City? He has played one game for Leicester City and that was in the cup, and there he looked very unfit, overweight and didn't look like the Johnson we all saw at Manchester City under Sven.

[Corky]

If Johnson gets properly fit soon he may take over the playmaker role.