Dyer and other Championship wingers

[Leicester Bob]

Personally I am getting a bit tired of people constantly banging the "we need to get a new winger drum". I think its a bit of a cliché when people say Lloyd Dyer is an ok winger but has no end product, this is true of all the wingers in the championship and most in the bottom half of the premiership. If a winger is fast, strong, athletic and can consistently deliver a ball onto the strikers head he will, quite simply be playing at a higher level. I mean look at Adam Johnston who can deliver with either foot he was playing in the championship for about 5 minutes before he was snaffled away.

People look at Kebe as the holy grail of Championship wingers but basically he is faster, stronger and more athletic than most the end product is still pretty inconsistent hence the fact that he has spend years of his career at Reading. The same goes for Nathan Dyer I don't see a massive gulf in class between Swansea's Dyer and ours. The idea the this type of winger exists in the Championship is a myth. Can anyone name one? is the modern more fluid version of football making the position obsolete? (look at Downing playing down the middle for England last night or Kebe Playing off the main striker down the KP)

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Personally I am getting a bit tired of people constantly banging the "we need to get a new winger drum". I think its a bit of a cliché when people say Lloyd Dyer is an ok winger but has no end product, this is true of all the wingers in the championship and most in the bottom half of the premiership. If a winger is fast, strong, athletic and can consistently deliver a ball onto the strikers head he will, quite simply be playing at a higher level. I mean look at Adam Johnston who can deliver with either foot he was playing in the championship for about 5 minutes before he was snaffled away.

People look at Kebe as the holy grail of Championship wingers but basically he is faster, stronger and more athletic than most the end product is still pretty inconsistent hence the fact that he has spend years of his career at Reading. The same goes for Nathan Dyer I don't see a massive gulf in class between Swansea's Dyer and ours. The idea the this type of winger exists in the Championship is a myth. Can anyone name one? is the modern more fluid version of football making the position obsolete? (look at Downing playing down the middle for England last night or Kebe Playing off the main striker down the KP)

I can understand what you are saying, but Kebe is a far better winger than Dyer, because he can read the game better, and not always

bang over hopeful crosses, as does Dyer. He is, effectively, the best winger in the Championship.

[Matt]

Put it this way. Sven isn't playing Dyer, I personally rate Dyer, alot.

But Sven needs to do 1 of 2 things, he either needs to start playing Dyer or get a couple of wingers in.

[MGLCFC]

I love it when people know what to do to make us world beaters and tell Sven what he should do. It must be the easiest job in the world being a football manager because we all believe we can do it better than the professionals.

[Haydos]

Dyer can't kick a ball....with either foot. And is way too inconsistent.

I don't deny that on occasions he can cause defences a whole load of bother (I'd have him on the bench) but he simply doesn't do this very often.

[Lineker's Left Foot]

Personally I am getting a bit tired of people constantly banging the "we need to get a new winger drum". I think its a bit of a cliché when people say Lloyd Dyer is an ok winger but has no end product, this is true of all the wingers in the championship and most in the bottom half of the premiership. If a winger is fast, strong, athletic and can consistently deliver a ball onto the strikers head he will, quite simply be playing at a higher level. I mean look at Adam Johnston who can deliver with either foot he was playing in the championship for about 5 minutes before he was snaffled away.

People look at Kebe as the holy grail of Championship wingers but basically he is faster, stronger and more athletic than most the end product is still pretty inconsistent hence the fact that he has spend years of his career at Reading. The same goes for Nathan Dyer I don't see a massive gulf in class between Swansea's Dyer and ours. The idea the this type of winger exists in the Championship is a myth. Can anyone name one? is the modern more fluid version of football making the position obsolete? (look at Downing playing down the middle for England last night or Kebe Playing off the main striker down the KP)

Couldn't we have upset Brizzle even more by going for Jamal Campbell-Ryce or Albert Adomah - they're two wingers I'm sure.

[Happy Fox]

Sven doesn't think Dyer is good enough to warrant a place in the team or the bench, so I expect that when the loan window opens we will get a winger

[Mack]

In my opinion in the championship you need to have a physical edge to your team.

If you are comparing Kebe to Dyer I think you can see Kebe's ability to show more strength.

The stupidity in the summer in changing the amount of subs in the football league from 7 to 5 has also changed the thinking of Managers.

I completely agree that you wont find the finished article hanging around for long in the football league.

Dyer is lightning but his finishing and delivery are so often array, and he also fades after an hour or so. Sven has to take all this into account when selecting the match squad, I guess he sees others with less pace but stronger attributes in delivery etc.

Personally I would have loved to have seen Kebe join, he is just about the best you can find in the championship.

Having said that I really hope Lloyd gets his chance and shows us all he has improved on his weak points.

[Guest Col city fan]

Lloyd Dyer IMO has been given little chance under Sven. Whether this is because he doesn't fancy him as a player, or because Lloyd doesn't fit nicely into Svens system, I do not know...

However, I like Lloyd... I agree that sometimes his final ball is not the best, but, as the OP mentioned, its rare to get a winger who is supremely quick AND who delivers a tasty cross time and time again.

I would play Lloyd Dyer simply because his pace puts defences immediately on the back foot. I have maintained that City, under Sven are a slow team, particularly when counter-attacking away from home.

I think Lloyd needs to be given his chance, in a 442 formation where he can get the ball at feet and push it past the full back. He really is very rapid and has a pretty good finish when in the right position.

[Kitchandro]

Dyer can't kick a ball....with either foot. And is way too inconsistent.

I don't deny that on occasions he can cause defences a whole load of bother (I'd have him on the bench) but he simply doesn't do this very often.

This, sums him up.

[Guest Col city fan]

Dyer can't kick a ball....with either foot. And is way too inconsistent.

I don't deny that on occasions he can cause defences a whole load of bother (I'd have him on the bench) but he simply doesn't do this very often.

Usually agree with you mate but can't on this.. IMO Lloyd Dyer is one on the best finishers at the club. Under Sven he's had such little opportunity to show much

[Leicester Bob]

Lloyd Dyer IMO has been given little chance under Sven. Whether this is because he doesn't fancy him as a player, or because Lloyd doesn't fit nicely into Svens system, I do not know...

However, I like Lloyd... I agree that sometimes his final ball is not the best, but, as the OP mentioned, its rare to get a winger who is supremely quick AND who delivers a tasty cross time and time again.

I would play Lloyd Dyer simply because his pace puts defences immediately on the back foot. I have maintained that City, under Sven are a slow team, particularly when counter-attacking away from home.

I think Lloyd needs to be given his chance, in a 442 formation where he can get the ball at feet and push it past the full back. He really is very rapid and has a pretty good finish when in the right position.

Yeah I think Lloyd like waggy has really suffered since we changed the system, Sven prefers Vassell or Gally in the wide(ish) positions but like you say lets see him get two or three starts under his belt and lets start to get at teams I also disagree with whoever said his finishing is poor has scored quite a few goals for us particularly in his first season when he was starting a lot of games.

[cc_star]

Sven doesn't play with wingers, we do not need new wingers unless Sven is going to change how we play, which form tells us - he ISN'T

We're either playing a diamond with a front 2, or we're playing a really, really bad version of 4-3-3 with wide forwards, which thanks to our inability to play for 90mins collapses into a poor version of 4-5-1

On to your point, wingers are generally wingers because they're fast, yes they should be able to cross in the classic sense of the word 'winger', but pace seems to be the most important thing these days therefore not having an end product isn't unusual and to be honest has become normal.

I actually think Dyer could slot into a 4-3-3 really well, because he has a natural tendency to cut in and push into the box causing problems, his role therefore isn't to provide width but to support the middle man far more by coming in from the outside, this will inevitably create space for a fast overlapping fullback (which we don't have) or invite tackles in the penalty box.

As it stands at the moment we have Vassell running away from goal towards the corner flag being pushed out there by defenders where he can do very little harm, swapping him in our current setup for Dyer could be more of a threat, of course Sven will be the last person in the world to drop Vassell, so the chance of this happening is less than zero.

[Haydos]

Usually agree with you mate but can't on this.. IMO Lloyd Dyer is one on the best finishers at the club. Under Sven he's had such little opportunity to show much

He can be. Which is mostly frustrating. I have no idea behind his fluctuating form, on the one hand you have a great goal against Man City and on the other you have him struggling to put in a ball against an average Championship full back

Having thought about it I think you could compare him with King (who despite being a much better footballer naturally and who contributes a hell of a lot more through his goals, seems to come in for the most stick when not performing. Victim of his own high standards?) Anyway, King often 'goes missing' or in other words doesn't offer much but still managed a truckload of goals last season and this is why i'll always back him. Compare this with Dyer who can be ineffective at times as well but doesn't offer much in terms of goal threat and this is where my problem lies.

[Brown Fox]

Usually agree with you mate but can't on this.. IMO Lloyd Dyer is one on the best finishers at the club. Under Sven he's had such little opportunity to show much

Personally think he's awful at finishing I can think of at least 3 1-on-1s he missed last season. Hull away, Millwall away and Cardiff at home. And in general his finishing is bad. I know he's scored a few good goals but he should be doing that consistently. I'd trust Wellens and Oakley to finish better than Dyer. When he's on form he's a nightmare I know and I really enjoy watching him but a lot of the time he just drifts in an out of the game. If he's up against a full back with any sort of pace he's completely ineffective.

[Guest Col city fan]

He can be. Which is mostly frustrating. I have no idea behind his fluctuating form, on the one hand you have a great goal against Man City and on the other you have him struggling to put in a ball against an average Championship full back

Having thought about it I think you could compare him with

King (who despite being a much better footballer naturally and who contributes a hell of a lot more through his goals, seems to come in for the most stick when not performing. Victim of his own high standards?) Anyway, King often 'goes missing' or in other words doesn't offer much but still

managed a truckload of goals last season and this is why i'll always back him. Compare this with Dyer who can be

ineffective at times as well but doesn't offer much in terms of goal threat and this is where my problem lies.

From what I've seen of Lloyd Dyer playing for Sven he has

had little opportunity to show the goal threat he can be. I agree with a previous comment that Dyer was scoring quite a few goals under NP and some good ones too.

Goal scoring becomes a habit I guess. The more chances you have to score, the more you do score and your confidence in front of goal improves. I still maintain that Dyer IS a goal threat, although not naturally as gifted a finisher as King, he simply has not had the run of games and the chance to get himself into the right positions to be able to demonstrate this.

Finally, with Lloyd its not only about goals he scores himself. A defence who is constantly worried about a quick man running in behind them often leave spaces elsewhere for your top striker to get in and nick one. Pace is relatively absent in this Sven team.. Lloyd Dyer could give him that

[Fox92]

I like Dyer when he runs at players because they don't like it obviously.

But, if you study Dyer, he comes inside far to much and is never out wide to offer his full back and option. If he was to play, I like him playing right midfield to come inside.

[Lcfc_k133]

IMO Dyer plays his best football on the wing (which seems an odd comment) but often you look to the left wing in search of lloyd and he is 'wandering' in field and is found floating somewhere behind the front two. he therefore often isnt providing an outlet and in narrowing our formation makes it much easier for teams to defend against us and simply 'Park the proverbial bus'. One of Lloyds best games that I can recall was against Leeds where he had clearly been told to stay on the wing and time and time again he pushed the ball past the full back and caused trouble all game. as I said I like the Dyer that runs at fullbacks, but he doesnt do this enough for me. As previously mentioned his pace is his greatest asset but can cause his final deliveries to be a little rushed where gally_7 will kill the ball slow the pace and deliver better balls in.

I also accept that Dyer has scored a lot of goals in a city shirt but you have to remember most of these were in league 1, and he is by no means one of the best finishers at the club. when dyer shoots its more a case of 'swing a boot' the ball goes at pace to its destination which if it hits the net looks great but as a rule it is just as likely to end up in the stands.

For me Dyer is more of an impact player when the defence are wavering although I do admit that I would like to see him as with Waggy get a bit of a run and a chance as the latter can and will score goals at this level unfortunately for Hull:- Matty Waghorn partnership

[Kitchandro]

I'll offer a defence for Dyer actually, Sven plays him out on the right quite a lot which doesn't play to his strengths at all. He has much more of a chance of being useful on the left.

Still don't think he's good enough for the bench of a promotion chasing team though.

[Thracian]

Personally I am getting a bit tired of people constantly banging the "we need to get a new winger drum". I think its a bit of a cliché when people say Lloyd Dyer is an ok winger but has no end product, this is true of all the wingers in the championship and most in the bottom half of the premiership. If a winger is fast, strong, athletic and can consistently deliver a ball onto the strikers head he will, quite simply be playing at a higher level. I mean look at Adam Johnston who can deliver with either foot he was playing in the championship for about 5 minutes before he was snaffled away.

People look at Kebe as the holy grail of Championship wingers but basically he is faster, stronger and more athletic than most the end product is still pretty inconsistent hence the fact that he has spend years of his career at Reading. The same goes for Nathan Dyer I don't see a massive gulf in class between Swansea's Dyer and ours. The idea the this type of winger exists in the Championship is a myth. Can anyone name one? is the modern more fluid version of football making the position obsolete? (look at Downing playing down the middle for England last night or Kebe Playing off the main striker down the KP)

Until a week or so ago Gradel was essentially a winger and his 22 goals in 60 games did much to emphasise his value.

I'm not sure what you mean by the modern, more fluid version of football. It always seemed to me that teams with good wingers were extremely fluid and the system was far more effective than our lone strikers having to look around for someone to pass to, particularly second half or away from home, and finally being forced to go backwards.

Even at International level we've had no fluidity. In fact we've been worse than pathetic for much of the time and have achieved nothing.

Trouble is wingers represent risk to the narrow minded. They take people on either individually, which risks losing the ball, or with the help of an attacking full-back which can leave the space behind them exposed.

And the problem is, being on the outside of the pitch near the fans, they get noticed and if they lose the ball two or three times, they're heckled and start getting negative.

Yet lots of players give the ball away, lots of times. I'm not sure people like Kisnorbo, Hobbs and Brown ever gave the ball to a blue shirt. But hopeful, floated 30 yard nowhere passes don't count cos they momentarily relieve some pressure and half the time the crowd don't notice anyway. They're just dismissed as 50-50 balls when in fact won by the opposition far more often than by us.

Nor is there just one kind of winger. Alan Hinton was one of the most dangerous wide men I ever saw because he could deliver a cross quickly, accurately and at pace from wherever he happened to be standing which was usually on the touchline. Like Beckham, he didn't really need to take people on. It was all down to delivery.

A problem with wingers is that they tend to be less than aggressive and this doesn't go down well with the fans. Gallagher is the best example at City although he's just a pretend winger who occasionally delivers a telling cross but rarely hits the ball with enough venom to be dangerous.

Dyer is frustrating. He can deliver crosses with pace but we've not had a front post man since Cottee and the ball can speed across the six yard box without a City man getting near it cos we just don't get enough bodies in the box quickly enough. But for all that Dyer's as good as we've got but we have to play him regularly to get the best out of him.

The explosive energy needed to be an effective winger makes it very difficult for players to race back defending and still stay sharp in attack. Hence why we've compromised and used people like Oakley, Gallagher, Stephen Hughes and even Abe as makeshift wingers. They're not meant ot go by people so they're safe. But they're never going to effect much and that includes Gallagher who's set-pieces account for a good number of his goals and assists.

Good wingers though are an excellent form of defence you can have because they take so much attention to contain - usually two men at least. And if teams are pre-occupied stopping them they can't be attacking in numbers.

There are wingers to be found but you have to coach them to be the most effective they can. Cristiano Ronaldo was the best example of this I ever saw. He always had talent but did so much wrong when he first arrived at United.

Two years later he was mesmerising and absolutely lethal. He still did a share of tracking back but was essentially a free-roaming winger disrupting defences almost every time he got the ball.

Almost every ounce of energy was spent attacking people but he always had backing and the option of an out ball. His crosses weren't floated imlessly. They were directed. High, low, hard and soft, inswinging and outswinging, into the box or pulled back. No-one knew but there were always people busting a gut to get on the end of them.

But he always had enthusiastic support. We don't give that support. Backing up looks just a chore to our defenders and you hardly ever see a determined overlap from anyone. The team just doesn't work as a unit and I wonder if they can.

Playing with wingers is not just about getting the right guys on the flanks - it's about an entire philosophy. But most of the best teams I ever saw all had dangerous players out wide. Ronaldo and Giggs, Thompson and Callaghan, Eddie Gray and Peter Lorimer, plus individuals like Cliff Jones at Spurs, Gento at Real Madrid and United's mesmerising George Best..

We can't get players of that calibre but we have had people like Gradel and wasted him. In the great days of our history we had people like Stringfellow, Howard Riley, Lennie Glover, Steve Guppy, Derek Hogg and more...

Our problem now is that even when we get such people we haven't got an attacking coach to develop them beyond Academy level. Do we even recognise good wide players and, if so, how come it's so long since any wide player was successful at City?

Even Vassell, a demonstrably skillful player, has underformed.

I'm not sure that any City manager has really believed in genuine wingers for years, much less had any idea how to use them effectively.

Doesn't mean they're right though and our level of our attainment during that time wouldn't help their argument one bit.

[Leicester Bob]

Until a week or so ago Gradel was essentially a winger and his 22 goals in 60 did much to emphasise his value.

I'm not sure what you mean by the modern, more fluid version of football. It always seemed to me that teams with good wingers were extremely fluid and the system was far more effective than our lone strikers having to look around for someone to pass to, particularly second half or away from home, and finally being forced to go backwards.

Even at International level we've had no fluidity. In fact we've been worse than pathetic for much of the time and have achieved nothing.

Trouble is wingers represent risk to the narrow minded. They take people on either individually, which risks losing the ball, or with the help of an attacking full-back which can leave the space behind them exposed.

And the problem is, being on the outside of the pitch near the fans, they get noticed and if they lose the ball two or three times, they're heckled and start getting negative.

Yet lots of players give the ball away, lots of times. I'm not sure people like Kisnorbo, Hobbs and Brown ever gave the ball to a blue shirt. But hopeful, floated 30 yard nowhere passes don't count cos they momentarily relieve some pressure and half the time the crowd don't notice anyway. They're just dismissed as 50-50 balls when in fact won by the opposition far more often than by us.

Nor is there just one kind of winger. Alan Hinton was one of the most dangerous wide men I ever saw because he could deliver a cross quickly, accurately and at pace from wherever he happened to be standing which was usually on the touchline. Like Beckham, he didn't really need to take people on. It was all down to delivery.

A problem with wingers is that they tend to be less than aggressive and this doesn't go down well with the fans. Gallagher is the best example at City although he's just a pretend winger who occasionally delivers a telling cross but rarely hits the ball with enough venom to be dangerous.

Dyer is frustrating. He can deliver crosses with pace but we've not had a front post man since Cottee and the ball can speed across the six yard box without a City man getting near it cos we just don't get enough bodies in the box quickly enough. But for all that Dyer's as good as we've got but we have to play him regularly to get the best out of him.

The explosive energy needed to be an effective winger makes it very difficult for players to race back defending and still stay sharp in attack. Hence why we've compromised and used people like Oakley, Gallagher, Stephen Hughes and even Abe as makeshift wingers. They're not meant ot go by people so they're safe. But they're never going to effect much and that includes Gallagher who's set-pieces account for a good number of his goals and assists.

Good wingers though are an excellent form of defence you can have because they take so much attention to contain - usually two men at least. And if teams are pre-occupied stopping them they can't be attacking in numbers.

There are wingers to be found but you have to coach them to be the most effective they can. Cristiano Ronaldo was the best example of this I ever saw. He always had talent but did so much wrong when he first arrived at United.

Two years later he was mesmerising and absolutely lethal. He still did a share of tracking back but was essentially a free-roaming winger disrupting defences almost every time he got the ball.

Almost every ounce of energy was spent attacking people but he always had backing and the option of an out ball. His crosses weren't floated imlessly. They were directed. High, low, hard and soft, inswinging and outswinging, into the box or pulled back. No-one knew but there were always people busting a gut to get on the end of them.

But he always had enthusiastic support. We don't give that support. Backing up looks just a chore to our defenders and you hardly ever see a determined overlap from anyone. The team just doesn't work as a unit and I wonder if they can.

Playing with wingers is not just about getting the right guys on the flanks - it's about an entire philosophy. But most of the best teams I ever saw all had dangerous players out wide. Ronaldo and Giggs, Thompson and Callaghan, Eddie Gray and Peter Lorimer, plus individuals like Cliff Jones at Spurs and Gento at Real Madrid.

We can't get players of that calibre but we have had people like Gradel and wasted him. In the great days of our history we had people like Stringfellow, Howard Riley, Lennie Glover, Steve Guppy, Derek Hogg and more...

Our problem now is that even when we get such people we haven't got an attacking coach to develop them beyond Academy level. Do we even recognise good wide players and, if so, how come it's so long since any wide player was successful at City?

Even Vassell, a demonstrably skillful player, has underformed.

I'm not sure that any City manager has really believed in genuine wingers for years, much less had any idea how to use them effectively.

Doesn't mean they're right though and our level of our attainment during that time wouldn't help their argument one bit.

I was more trying to say that the position has changed the days of the 442 "touchline Chalk on your boots" take it round the defender and whip a cross winger (which was esentially what Dyer was when we signed him from MK Dons) are over, I do agree that there were lots of types of wingers tho look at good old Steve Guppy couldn't skin a chicken breast but where would he fit in todays side? basically at our level a player like dyer should be used to aggressivley turn Attack into defence very quickly but I don't think we will utilise him think we'll end up with Nugent Beckford and Vassell up top with 3 center mids in behind a side without a traditional winger in it.

[Guest Col city fan]

Until a week or so ago Gradel was essentially a winger and his 22 goals in 60 games did much to emphasise his value.

I'm not sure what you mean by the modern, more fluid version of football. It always seemed to me that teams with good wingers were extremely fluid and the system was far

more effective than our lone strikers having to look around for someone to pass to, particularly second half or away from home, and finally being forced to go backwards.

Even at International level we've had no fluidity. In fact we've been worse than pathetic for much of the time and have achieved nothing.

Trouble is wingers represent risk to the narrow minded. They take people on either individually, which risks losing the ball, or with the help of an attacking full-back which can leave the space behind them exposed.

And the problem is, being on the outside of the pitch near the fans, they get noticed and if they lose the ball two or three times, they're heckled and start getting negative.

Yet lots of players give the ball away, lots of times. I'm not

sure people like Kisnorbo, Hobbs and Brown ever gave the ball to a blue shirt. But hopeful, floated 30 yard nowhere passes don't count cos they momentarily relieve some pressure and half the time the crowd don't notice anyway. They're just dismissed as 50-50 balls when in fact won by the opposition far more often than by us.

Nor is there just one kind of winger. Alan Hinton was one

of the most dangerous wide men I ever saw because he could deliver a cross quickly, accurately and at pace from wherever he happened to be standing which was usually on the touchline. Like Beckham, he didn't really need to take people on. It was all down to delivery.

A problem with wingers is that they tend to be less than aggressive and this doesn't go down well with the fans. Gallagher is the best example at City although he's just a

pretend winger who occasionally delivers a telling cross but rarely hits the ball with enough venom to be dangerous.

Dyer is frustrating. He can deliver crosses with pace but we've not had a front post man since Cottee and the ball can speed across the six yard box without a City man getting near it cos we just don't get enough bodies in the box quickly enough. But for all that Dyer's as good as we've

got but we have to play him regularly to get the best out of him.

The explosive energy needed to be an effective winger makes it very difficult for players to race back defending and still stay sharp in attack. Hence why we've compromised and used people like Oakley, Gallagher, Stephen Hughes and even Abe as makeshift wingers.

They're not meant ot go by people so they're safe. But they're never going to effect much and that includes Gallagher who's set-pieces account for a good number of his goals and assists.

Good wingers though are an excellent form of defence you can have because they take so much attention to contain - usually two men at least. And if teams are pre-occupied

stopping them they can't be attacking in numbers.

There are wingers to be found but you have to coach them to be the most effective they can. Cristiano Ronaldo was the best example of this I ever saw. He always had talent but did so much wrong when he first arrived at United.

Two years later he was mesmerising and absolutely lethal.

He still did a share of tracking back but was essentially a free-roaming winger disrupting defences almost every time he got the ball.

Almost every ounce of energy was spent attacking people but he always had backing and the option of an out ball. His crosses weren't floated imlessly. They were directed.

High, low, hard and soft, inswinging and outswinging, into the box or pulled back. No-one knew but there were always people busting a gut to get on the end of them.

But he always had enthusiastic support. We don't give that support. Backing up looks just a chore to our defenders and you hardly ever see a determined overlap from anyone. The team just doesn't work as a unit and I wonder if they can.

Playing with wingers is not just about getting the right guys on the flanks - it's about an entire philosophy. But most of the best teams I ever saw all had dangerous players out wide. Ronaldo and Giggs, Thompson and Callaghan, Eddie Gray and Peter Lorimer, plus individuals like Cliff Jones at Spurs and Gento at Real Madrid.

We can't get players of that calibre but we have had people like Gradel and wasted him. In the great days of our history we had people like Stringfellow, Howard Riley, Lennie Glover, Steve Guppy, Derek Hogg and more...

Our problem now is that even when we get such people we haven't got an attacking coach to develop them beyond

Academy level. Do we even recognise good wide players and, if so, how come it's so long since any wide player was successful at City?

Even Vassell, a demonstrably skillful player, has underformed.

I'm not sure that any City manager has really believed in genuine wingers for years, much less had any idea how to

use them effectively.

Doesn't mean they're right though and our level of our attainment during that time wouldn't help their argument one bit.

This, in my opinion, is one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum. I agree with you sir and thank you for this insight

[Thracian]

I was more trying to say that the position has changed the days of the 442 "touchline Chalk on your boots" take it round the defender and whip a cross winger (which was esentially what Dyer was when we signed him from MK Dons) are over, I do agree that there were lots of types of wingers tho look at good old Steve Guppy couldn't skin a chicken breast but where would he fit in todays side? basically at our level a player like dyer should be used to aggressivley turn Attack into defence very quickly but I don't think we will utilise him think we'll end up with Nugent Beckford and Vassell up top with 3 center mids in behind a side without a traditional winger in it.

Yes, there's every indication that's the way Sven will play it but I hope he's got the sense to use both at different times. Neither Vassell nor Dyer have a real 90 minutes in them and if we do persist with "Defence Mode" as a protective policy whenever we're in front, Dyer becomes a key player.

I worked for some time trying to balance a 4-2-4 or 4-4-2 using both Dyer and Vassell but we just don't have the two central midfielders and energised attacking full-backs to make it work.

As for Guppy I'd still have used him in any team of mine. Gupps to the kamikazees - you can't beat precision. Takes all the effort out of things!

[foxes2011]

i think at the moment sven like to do either a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-3-3

we dont use wide players because tbh i dont think we have wingers good enough i would have like to see us buy two in the transfer market but for a couple of good wingers its not going to be cheap we should have gone back in for gradel for 2 mill but even if we did he would have gone to france.

The fact is good wing players arnt cheap thats probley why svens stagered into a 4-1-3-2 which uses width from only the wingbacks really but id like to point out that peltier played a lot of games in midfeild for his old side so i think we may see that and then put pansil out at right back.

I dont think dyers good enough to play game in game out but he is the only winger we really have so i think sven will stick with current, if we can beat southhampton with this (the 4-1-3-2 team) i have faith in them and recon we should be able to beat teams. We had a bad start but i put that down to silly mistakes and the players didnt really have time to gel.

[Father Ted]

Dyer is a counter attacking player, you cant use him in the formation that should never be used (4-5-1).

I think hes a good player on his day, when hes on form he is twice the player Vassell is, he can skin players for fun and is a goalscoring threat. Unfortunately, hes a poor finisher, struggles to last a full 90 and has no right foot.