Cut school leaving age to 14

[Daggers]

Quite possibly the thickest idea I've heard from anyone in education.

If I'm going to get all serious for a minute, I couldn't disagree more. Education has been suffering for decades due to the ever-increasingly feminised curriculum being offered and boys continually get excluded. I remember proper apprenticeships and they were a good thing, keeping thick and/or reluctant lads on to 16/18 is brainless. These kids are crying out for something schools are totally unable to offer.

For a time in the late 90s schools tried to meet the gap by introducing Part 1s, a vocational qualification for Science, Business, Health or Engineering. This failed because, as with all things, new education ministers always fail to follow through the things the previous one did - thereby continually fvcking up the system.

Obviously the kids need something to go to if they leave at 14 - but they sure as shit shouldn't be in school.

[Daggers]

wtf is your sig about?

It's something I like

[Bugg]

I don't agree with this at all.

If I was offered this when I was 14 I would have left, but I probably would have remained the thick cunt I was.

I actually improved a lot academically between 14 and 16 so I think that staying until 16 would be the best bet.

Forcing children to stay on till 18 years old however I disagree with entirely.

[Guest Bilo]

If I'm going to get all serious for a minute, I couldn't disagree more. Education has been suffering for decades due to the ever-increasingly feminised curriculum being offered and boys continually get excluded. I remember proper apprenticeships and they were a good thing, keeping thick and/or reluctant lads on to 16/18 is brainless. These kids are crying out for something schools are totally unable to offer.

For a time in the late 90s schools tried to meet the gap by introducing Part 1s, a vocational qualification for Science, Business, Health or Engineering. This failed because, as with all things, new education ministers always fail to follow through the things the previous one did - thereby continually fvcking up the system.

Obviously the kids need something to go to if they leave at 14 - but they sure as shit shouldn't be in school.

If there are serious opportunities for children to go into proper vocational training then yes, that should be an option. I've just started teaching at a school that has an exceptional vocational centre with childcare, carpentry, plumbing and various other trade training available on site that is hugely successful with 100% of pupils passing their courses last year and kids queuing up to get into the school. As a non-selective school in an area that still has grammar schools and the eleven plus, we do get a lot of kids here who aren't academic but know they won't have to go to the job centre an hour after their last GCSE exam because the Vocational Centre is there and thriving. Where a school has this, could I oppose it for 14 year olds in lieu of all but the key subjects? No, I probably couldn't.

Not every school is as fortunate as my place of work however, and the fact is that a lot of 14 year olds would undoubtedly be utterly abandoned if this were to happen. They'd have no academic qualifications and no guarantee of vocational ones either if they didn't live near a college of vocational training. How many local businesses and tradesmen could be bothered with setting on a 14 year old, who would by definition lack skills due to the fact they've left school? I teach the relevant age group and yes, it's pretty apparent that many at that age group really don't want to be in school and I'd be lying if I said they did. That said, you'd be quite surprised by the progress some of the cockier buggers can make with decent discipline and an inclusive lesson plan.

The problem is that it's those self-same kids who, at 14, probably can't be arsed with very much at all so an apprenticeship wouldn't benefit them much either. The number of teenagers who would go into apprenticeships and make a successful career would, I think, do well to equal the number of kids who would end up as NEETs and I think everyone would agree there are more than enough of those as it is. Combine key subjects such as English, Maths and Science with vocational training at KS4 if the child isn't academic but allowing them to leave after Year 9 would be a dangerous step in my opinion.

[Magictv]

It's something I like

Yes I don't really know why I posted that, it doesn't make much sense since I know what it is, I was just interested why it was there!

[ousefox]

14 is far too young, although i don't agree it should be raised to 18 either. By the time you've done your GCSE's you can decide whether it's worth carrying on with academic subjects or not. People forget how school life isn't just about the education bit.

[Legend_in_blue]

The problem is that it's those self-same kids who, at 14, probably can't be arsed with very much at all so an apprenticeship wouldn't benefit them much either. The number of teenagers who would go into apprenticeships and make a successful career would, I think, do well to equal the number of kids who would end up as NEETs and I think everyone would agree there are more than enough of those as it is. Combine key subjects such as English, Maths and Science with vocational training at KS4 if the child isn't academic but allowing them to leave after Year 9 would be a dangerous step in my opinion.

I agree with everything you have said there.

Any kid who at the age of 14 has had enough of school is challenging enough as it is. Generalising, they tend to be disaffected kids who react poorly to discipline and school routine. How does putting them on an apprenticeship change this?

Discipline and attitude towards work, whether academic or not, is key.

The former chief can say what he likes, getting rid of the kids early because school's can't handle them with current methods of discipline and putting them into work isn't the answer. But neither is forcing them to stay at school until 18...

[dave the caveman]

I don't think he's suggesting that 14-year-olds should be allowed to just leave school to do nothing, but rather that they should be given the option of moving towards vocational training at that age, rather than continuing on the traditional curriculum which teaches them no skills that they will ever be able to sell.

It's a good, common sense idea. Whether it's workable or not I don't know. There comes a point with vocational training where you just need to get out there and actually do what you're being shown. As someone said earlier you can't really throw 14-year-olds onto a building site, so how are they going to get the essential real life experience.

[Daggers]

...getting rid of the kids early because school's can't handle them with current methods of discipline and putting them into work isn't the answer.

What is then?

[Rincewind]

Just started an IT course. I have to complete it in around ten weeks. Schoolkids get 5 years at senior schools plus college then university I have to remember things that wasn't around 40 years ago.

First module word processing moving renaming files inserting animations pictures etc

second module spreadsheets working with formulas tables etc

Third module Presentatations slides etc

IT module level 2 no idea what it means. Finding the best applications to use etc.

The first is not too bad. The others will take some study. I'll be retired by the time I qualify.

[davieG]

I don't think he's suggesting that 14-year-olds should be allowed to just leave school to do nothing, but rather that they should be given the option of moving towards vocational training at that age, rather than continuing on the traditional curriculum which teaches them no skills that they will ever be able to sell.

It's a good, common sense idea. Whether it's workable or not I don't know. There comes a point with vocational training where you just need to get out there and actually do what you're being shown. As someone said earlier you can't really throw 14-year-olds onto a building site, so how are they going to get the essential real life experience.

Having overseen the recruitment and training of many 16 year old becoming apprentices the one thing that amazed me more than anything else was how quickly they changed from childish kids to serious adults intent on bettering themselves.

The combination of day release for academic training, basic m/c.engineering.construction practical training and probably most importantly working along side experienced people interested in their development (you'd be surprised how many are interested) helped me produce first class apprentices who became important employees, even senior managers many of whom where then sponsored to continue their academic qualifications up to degree level.

I believe given the proper facilities and support I see no reason why you could not do the same with 'interested' 14 year olds, yes even building sites. Even 16 year olds can't go on these unsupervised but it's not a problem you can learn a lot shadowing an experienced engineer.

I learned to never under estimate people's ability, whatever their age given the correct circumstances.

One 16 year old apprentice I recruited who went on to degree level became my Engineering Manager and then my Engineering Director.

[Legend_in_blue]

What is then?

Good question. No-one has come up with a viable solution yet. If you could it would go a long way to taking out the "hard" from the "hardcore".

[leicsmac]

Think this is a reasonable idea, but as some people have already said, numerous vocational schemes that anyone who leaves at 14 can access wherever they are need to be in place before it is implemented, otherwise you'll have a bunch of kids essentially thrown on the scrapheap.

PS. Daggers - you a quantum physics man then or do you just like a bit of Schrodinger? ;-)

[Phube]

Actually I'm more concerned with when kids start school. The best schooling system in the world is Finland. The pupils in Finland start school aged 7, not 4 like here! By then they are much more willing and able to cope with 'structured education'.

But the "free child care" lobby would never allow it!

[Rincewind]

So where are all the jobs coming from with young 'uns starting earlier and the oldies staying in work longer?

Is there a mathamatical solution to this? Maths was never my strong subject.

[Guest Bilo]

Actually I'm more concerned with when kids start school. The best schooling system in the world is Finland. The pupils in Finland start school aged 7, not 4 like here! By then they are much more willing and able to cope with 'structured education'.

But the "free child care" lobby would never allow it!

An amazing system in Finland really, the best in Europe.

As you say though, it'd never be allowed in the UK with so many vested interests.

[Rincewind]

Not so many chavs in finland.

The parents may do a lot of the teaching before they kids start, Also the Fins may not have the 'Its the teachers job to teach not the parents' attitude some have here.

[Daggers]

Think this is a reasonable idea, but as some people have already said, numerous vocational schemes that anyone who leaves at 14 can access wherever they are need to be in place before it is implemented, otherwise you'll have a bunch of kids essentially thrown on the scrapheap.

PS. Daggers - you a quantum physics man then or do you just like a bit of Schrodinger? ;-)

I just hate cats

[The Doctor]

So where are all the jobs coming from with young 'uns starting earlier and the oldies staying in work longer?

Is there a mathamatical solution to this? Maths was never my strong subject.

I think the solution is a massive cull - everyone below a certain intellect, which would have the additional benefit of wiping out over half the posters on this forum.

As a side-note - Schrödinger is a massive ****. Been studying the Schrödinger equation earlier today and I think lcfcstu's views on the army make more sense that that equation.

[Daggers]

I think the solution is a massive cull - everyone below a certain intellect, which would have the additional benefit of wiping out over half the posters on this forum.

As a side-note - Schrödinger is a massive ****. Been studying the Schrödinger equation earlier today and I think lcfcstu's views on the army make more sense that that equation.

You see you're getting it - the duality present in your murder arguments compliments the equation perfectly

[The Doctor]

Ok then, how about we just deport the thicko's - maybe to France?

Of course we'd have to shut off the channel tunnel and ferries - which has the added benefit of keeping the French out.

[Yojoe36]

Ok then, how about we just deport the thicko's - maybe to France?

Of course we'd have to shut off the channel tunnel and ferries - which has the added benefit of keeping the French out.

Why not Wales?

[The Doctor]

France is further away from me, and is separated by a wider passage of water.

[leicsmac]

I just hate cats

So did Schrodinger. Personally I don't know why he didn't just take the cat out of the box and shoot it - then he'd know if it was dead or not.

LargeAl - Quantum mechanics is a grade A mindfvck, isn't it? But at the moment we don't have any better idea about how stuff acts at the atomic and subatomic level...seeing as we can't really observe it due to that other complete barsteward Heisenberg...

[Bob Weasel Fox]

Then it should start at 11

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