Depressing and sickening news - discretion req.

[Guest MattP]

Yeaaaaaaah, okaaaaay. That's great.

Don't mind me while I slowly back away and call for the straight jacket.

Yes of course. Anyone who wants people to be punished severly obviously needs locking up as well.

[Finnegan]

Yes of course. Anyone who wants people to be punished severly obviously needs locking up as well.

Aw, dude, don't start back-pedalling now. It was far funnier when you were doing your Jigsaw impression.

[The Doctor]

I hope Ian Huntley and Roy Whiting die the most painful long drawn out horrific deaths imaginable.

In your eyes this puts me on a par with a man who has murdered young innocent children? Can you not see why 99% of decent people would find that comment absolutely ridiculous?

I feel I may be going round in circles but hoping for that for anyone is sickening.

Now then, death would be a release for this person, if you want to hurt him then make him live with the shame of his actions for as long as possible. The mind is a powerful thing and can cause more pain than any physical actions would.

Oh, and I love the idea that decent people are those that support the death penalty, great reflection on society that is.

[StanSP]

I don't necessarily agree with LargeAl on this matter - but I can see where he's coming from. Why fight fire with fire? 2 wrongs don't make a right? Killing him won't bring back the poor baby?

Or have I misconstrued it all?

[Guest MattP]

I feel I may be going round in circles but hoping for that for anyone is sickening.

Now then, death would be a release for this person, if you want to hurt him then make him live with the shame of his actions for as long as possible. The mind is a powerful thing and can cause more pain than any physical actions would.

Oh, and I love the idea that decent people are those that support the death penalty, great reflection on society that is.

I don't support the death penalty, I actually agree with you life in prison is far harder for the perpatrator.

Sadly, I'd probably take the death penalty over some of the ridiculously lenient sentencing I see nowadays.

I don't necessarily agree with LargeAl on this matter - but I can see where he's coming from. Why fight fire with fire? 2 wrongs don't make a right? Killing him won't bring back the poor baby?

Or have I misconstrued it all?

I think it's the offence caused by saying you are bad as someone who has killed a child that wound some people up.

[MikeyT]

I don't understand how it's manslaughter and not murder? And that he only got 9 years for killing a helpless baby.

The world, to me, becomes more baffling every day.

[Guest MattP]

I don't understand how it's manslaughter and not murder? And that he only got 9 years for killing a helpless baby.

The world, to me, becomes more baffling every day.

Maybe the baby was pissed.

On a serious note I have no idea, the concept of manslaughter seems to be used in a lot different context now to what used to.

[davieG]

I don't understand how it's manslaughter and not murder? And that he only got 9 years for killing a helpless baby.

The world, to me, becomes more baffling every day.

I'd assume it's because despite the horror of it he din't 'plan or intend' to kill the baby.

[MikeyT]

I'd assume it's because despite the horror of it he din't 'plan or intend' to kill the baby.

I did think that to be honest, but either way, for me, 9 years for something like that still seems pitiful.

[Finnegan]

I did think that to be honest, but either way, for me, 9 years for something like that still seems pitiful.

Nine years inside, with everyone knowing why he's there? Not something I'd sniff at.

And his life is essentially ruined even when he gets out. He's not really a danger to the general public, is he? You have to hope that no right minded woman is going to mother his child again and it's not exactly going to sit right with any employer, is it?

Edit: Please don't take this for sympathy, by the way. I have none. I'm just pointing out that it's hardly a 'nothing' sentence.

[Guest MattP]

Nine years inside, with everyone knowing why he's there? Not something I'd sniff at.

And his life is essentially ruined even when he gets out. He's not really a danger to the general public, is he? You have to hope that no right minded woman is going to mother his child again and it's not exactly going to sit right with any employer, is it?

Edit: Please don't take this for sympathy, by the way. I have none. I'm just pointing out that it's hardly a 'nothing' sentence.

He punched a baby and had inflicted numerous injuries on it in the past.

Surely he is quite a significant danger to any member of the general public that has a life involving children?

[davieG]

Nine years inside, with everyone knowing why he's there? Not something I'd sniff at.

And his life is essentially ruined even when he gets out. He's not really a danger to the general public, is he? You have to hope that no right minded woman is going to mother his child again and it's not exactly going to sit right with any employer, is it?

Edit: Please don't take this for sympathy, by the way. I have none. I'm just pointing out that it's hardly a 'nothing' sentence.

Purely from a financial perspective is it cheaper to keep him in prison or allow him to live on benefits for the rest of his life, assuming he'll never get employment.

Which begs the question what do you do with ex-prisoners that can't get a job especially ones like this who will probably have relatively financially stress free life on release.

[StanSP]

Purely from a financial perspective is it cheaper to keep him in prison or allow him to live on benefits for the rest of his life, assuming he'll never get employment.

Which begs the question what do you do with ex-prisoners that can't get a job especially ones like this who will probably have relatively financially stress free life on release.

Are they allowed to change their identity?

[davieG]

Are they allowed to change their identity?

Possibly, but are they allowed to lie on the CV?

[Finnegan]

He punched a baby and had inflicted numerous injuries on it in the past.

Surely he is quite a significant danger to any member of the general public that has a life involving children?

I don't know about you but there are very few times in my life where I'm in direct contact, alone, with someone's baby.

I'd accept your point if he was breaking into the children's ward of a hospital to actively seek out and harm other babies.

[Babylon]

Maybe the baby was pissed.

[Saxondale]

And here we go again:

Remarkably similar case

[Rincewind]

I would imagine that when he is released he would not be able to change his identity because of the seriousness of the crime. He would be on a bond and have to report to the police or paroll officer on a regular basis. He may get support in finding somewhere to live and getting a job but it will be up to him on how much he reveals about his past life given that it is illegal not to put down convictions on application forms. He could also of course be reffered to a mental insitution depending on physcoatric reports.

This is only assuming of ourse that he survives his sentence.

[Thracian]

Although the consequences aren't always so final, this sort of moronic behaviour is far more widespread than many would believe or want to believe.

I've been considering writing a book about people i've come in contact with where child rape, mainline drugs-taking, substance dependence, violence and murder are all part of the story.

And surrounding those people are countless others whose antecedent history reads much the same.

There is no excusing the guy who killed the child but I'd bet £1 to a penny that he's just another "victim" among the underclass which our society has allowed to evolve and which few outside it really want to acknowledge let alone be in touch with.

Most on here can read and write for a start, suggesting you've at least had some sort of responsible parenting and education. There's enough moral indignation too to suggest you've had some worthwhile guidance through life as well.

These people aren't like that. Almost invariably they have no "responsible" parents, they don't read books or newspapers, they have no job, no social skills, no purpose, no ambition, no support, no spare money, no chance of erasing their police record and very little hope of ever being any different because, mostly, their minds have stopped working like that even if they ever did.

Yes, some say they want to change but no, they don't have the will or determination to do it. And you can't trust anything they say anyway. Lieing is built into almost every sentence once they become substance dependent. Their needs are far greater than any commitment to telling the truth but they'll deny it without blinking.

They lack the motivation to change more than short term and even when given an opportunity, such as a casual job, too often they blow it because either they're not reliable, not trustworthy and can't control themselves adequately.

For many it would not take long before some crisis would arise to ruin any headway they made - partner walks out, baby's ill, lodger's smashed up the flat, the temptation to steal or whatever. Somehow they are never far from a crisis, either real or imagined.

These people are almost always known as violent, unreliable or untrustworthy before they commit a serious crime. It is known they are easily short-circuited by stress.

When I think of everyone I know who might fit into the broad category I've outlined above they all - yes all - suffer from serious stress, often on a daily or at least short-term basis. Their way of life makes stress inevitable.

If they've spent their benefits on drugs, alcohol or baccy they can't afford any more metered electricity or any more food so they beg or steal or get in debt to the loan sharks to get some warmth and sustenance.

Women take to the streets, men tout stolen goods, but all of those solutions are temporary, full of risk and certain to end badly for one reason or another. It's a wickedly vicious circle and when they're in it, they'll take their misery out on anyone who gives them the slightest reason.

Their violence may well be an expression of frustration at the mess of their own lives but, whatever, there is cause and inevitable effect....effect that our society doesn't really want to deal with because, while considerable resources are needed to even try to change these sad lives for the better, the chances of success are minimal - and for countless reasons.

The above doesn't offer answers just an insight into reasons.

But solutions? Who knows? These people are often mentally and, sometimes, physically screwed. They badly need a different environment to make headway but how can that environment be provided for so many people, when others just don't want to be involved with them and who can blame them? Why put your own kids and happy family environment at risk for the long shot of being able to help someone?.

Our society needs to provide the help these people need long before they kill anyone but if, in the end, they spurn every opportunity and do something that can't be mended - such as punching a helpless baby to death - why should they benefit from sympathy? They know they've done wrong. Constantly looking over their shoulder accounts for so much of their stress!.

Yes, the baby killer's balance of mind was clearly disturbed but so will the balance of his victims' minds be disturbed - that is the parents, friends and family- and quite possibly for the rest of their lives.

Personally I'd involve the victims' family in sentencing - it would probably be beneficial psychologically. And the perpetrator might also be given some choices as to what should be done.

But either way sentencing should be effective and protect society from such people permanently.

Liberal thinkers shudder at that but offer no solutions themselves. They largely ignore the impact on victims and, by being so soft, encourage even more lawlessness which actually makes the situation worse, not just because there are more future victims, but also more people are sucked together into the underclass mentioned which is the very last thing those people need.

I think solutions are possible but they require money, commitment and a firm determination to make them work starting with a rebuilding of family values and a commitment to good education that is tailored to people's abilities and develops people's skills.

But when you think of the millions wasted in this country and in so many directions, why not? But it needs a whole new psyche and real commitment to the idea that no-one gets something for nothing and that a decent standard of livng has to be worked for.

[z-layrex]

However he is wishing death upon another person, which makes him also sub-human scum. Whatever happened to the concepts of compassion for our fellow human beings and of turning the other cheek?

Over killing babies? Seriously?

This is what pisses me off about some people with left-wing views. If you're not a sympathetic, compassionate do gooder over everything that happens in society you're automatically a heartless bastard.

The man punched a baby in the stomach, in fact he obviously tortured the baby over a period of months. I hope he gets stabbed to death in his cell.

[Finnegan]

Over killing babies? Seriously?

This is what pisses me off about some people with left-wing views. If you're not a sympathetic, compassionate do gooder over everything that happens in society you're automatically a heartless bastard.

Excuse me, what?

Don't use Large fucking Al as the mouthpiece of all the left.

[z-layrex]

Excuse me, what?

Don't use Large fucking Al as the mouthpiece of all the left.

I said some people with left wing views.

[The Doctor]

Over killing babies? Seriously?

This is what pisses me off about some people with left-wing views. If you're not a sympathetic, compassionate do gooder over everything that happens in society you're automatically a heartless bastard.

The man punched a baby in the stomach, in fact he obviously tortured the baby over a period of months. I hope he gets stabbed to death in his cell.

If left-wing is not wanting to see people strung up for a crime then yes I've got left-wing views, but my posts as to this subject have nothing to do with politics and all to do with morals. Yes the man killed an innocent child, but that doesn't make it acceptable to kill him, I didn't say people are automatically heartless bastards for not being sympathetic or compassionate, but you are for wanting someone dead.

Now then, this is a horrible thing to have happened and he does deserve to be punished for it, but killing someone is just not justifiable IMO, no matter what they've done - two wrongs don't make a right and all that. Lock him up, make him live with the guilt - as I've already said that will cause mental anguish and the psychological effects of making him live with what he did will cause far more suffering than any physical harm could.

[MikeyT]

And here we go again:

Remarkably similar case

WTF is happening lately!

[z-layrex]

If left-wing is not wanting to see people strung up for a crime then yes I've got left-wing views, but my posts as to this subject have nothing to do with politics and all to do with morals. Yes the man killed an innocent child, but that doesn't make it acceptable to kill him, I didn't say people are automatically heartless bastards for not being sympathetic or compassionate, but you are for wanting someone dead.

Now then, this is a horrible thing to have happened and he does deserve to be punished for it, but killing someone is just not justifiable IMO, no matter what they've done - two wrongs don't make a right and all that. Lock him up, make him live with the guilt - as I've already said that will cause mental anguish and the psychological effects of making him live with what he did will cause far more suffering than any physical harm could.

Ordinarily i'd agree, I am completely against capital punishment, I think it's third world and barbaric.

But for me killing a baby or child makes me too angry. I hope the other prisoners get to him. I dunno if it's because I work with babies or what.